deflep1

Town hall meeting this afternoon, will get more details.

There will be 500 openings at Livonia and 50 at Dearborn.

I'm not a union rep, just a concerned line worker. They still have contracts with South America and ship cars there. Ford is actively looking to partner up with VW for South American & European business because they can't afford it any more. GM got out because they were losing money in both places. There are plenty of dealerships in the metro Detroit area that have up to 11K rebates on F-150's. We have the highest rebates in the country, just Google Ford rebates for this area. I'm not worried about where all the products are going, only that Ford has enough cash to make it through a downturn. That 55 billion profit they made in 8 years has only 25 billion left in available cash, and it is shrinking fast. Have you not watched a financial channel lately and heard how half the auto reporters are very worried about Ford's cash burn and with them spending 20-30 billion in the next three years on new products, R&D, retooling and such, they could be cutting it very close if profits continue to tumble. CNBC reported Ford could be down to just 10-12 billion in cash reserves by the end of next year. Toyota has over 100 billion in cash reserves, we should have 65-75 billion, but we're nowhere close. The Ford family has both preferred and common stock, but look at how many shares they own as compared to everyone outside the family, it's ridiculous! If two thirds or more of your net worth is tied up in family stock, then that's a problem. I know lots of people in the Glass house and a few high up execs. I helped build a few of their houses. When they tell me Ford is in crisis mode and desperate to stop the cash burn, that's hardly a plant rumor or gossip. Their bonds are 1 step above junk status, their profits are cut in half, their stock is at a ten year low with the stock market at an all time high. They would have a hard time borrowing money if they really needed it, so they don't want their cash reserves falling too low. If you only have 10 billion in reserve you can still make it, but if you need to spend 20 billion in the short term to stay competitive, even with good profit you could run out of cash. If no one wants to buy your stock and you can't borrow cash, you're in trouble. Maybe in Chicago automotive financials aren't talked about on the news all the time, but here in southeast Michigan, it's discussed all the time and constantly in the papers. Ford is soon set to spend more money on new products than they ever have at a time when they are burning through cash at a record pace. We have an idiot as CEO and the top management is only concerned with themselves. I wasn't running scared in 2006 when I said we could go bankrupt in the next 2 years, it almost happened. I'm not running scared now, either. The public and Wall Street have given up on us. Our employees still buy a large majority of company stock and Ford vehicles, but the rest of the country is buying less and less every day. Have you noticed how negative a majority of comments are on any Ford articles online? Lots of people hate us and our products and want us to go bankrupt. That's a huge problem. We can survive, but will end up a much smaller company within a few years, and that might be ok.

Not according to Obamacare. The IRS is in charge of making sure you are paying for coverage (or your employer) and they DO have access to your records. The company who supplies your healthcare is required to share their medical files with the IRS. Any medical treatment (check ups / injury / rehab) you get at work opens up the company's access to your records to check your history in order to treat you properly. Ask GM salary employees who got offered the pension buyout why some workers with the same age and number of years of service got completely different offers. If you were healthy, you got offered a lot more money than workers who had previous illnesses or just had a family history of illness. If they offer us a pension buyout, there could be a minimum base for years of service, but unless the union can successfully negotiate a set of rules for it, the company will give less to older and ill workers, and more to younger and healthier workers. It's an individual offer with risk assessment figured in just like life insurance companies do for policy prices.

Some are, some aren't, but at least you get to pick your future and not leave it in the inept hands of Ford!

Ford is considering it to cut Legacy costs, but as with what GM did for their salary workers, it would be based on every individuals age, years of service and expected life expectancy to figure out a pension buyout conversion to 401K. If you are age 50 with 30 years in, you might live another 35-40 years, so your buyout payoff would be much higher than someone that's age 66 with 30 years in. They also have access to our medical records and they would factor in family medical history to give lower payoffs for workers who have cancer and heart issues running in their families. As with someone with 20+ years in, I would like to have the opportunity to consider a pension buyout conversion to 401K, because if Ford goes bankrupt, I lose my pension. The money in the fund only goes to the workers fully vested until it runs out. Because you would then only have a 401K, you could leave it to anyone you wanted if you died, instead of just half to a surviving spouse with a pension. Pensions are going the way of the dinosaur very quickly. The Carpenters pension fund just announced they are cutting everyone down to $1,500 a month. Most pensioners will get cut 50-60 percent per month. We have to seriously look at that and know it could happen to us. If you convert your pension to a 401K, it's all yours and controlled by you. You are at the mercy of the stock market, but not by a greedy company anymore.

No buyouts announced yet, but they are coming. We are probably going to one shift and they need to move as many people out as possible. Ford is scrambling to get their finances in order and cut every cost possible. They will probably cut all South American and European operations in the next 2 years to save money, but word from the Glass House is that Ford is burning through their available cash (around 25 Billion) so fast that trying to finance all the new models, electrics and autonomous models that are 2-3 years away might bankrupt them because of their enormous debt. The Ford family has all their wealth wrapped up in Ford stock, and with it falling under $10 a share, they are getting desperate. Market share is shrinking fast and will accelerate with all sedans going away within 18 months. Profits have been cut in half and it would only take 1 major recall or lawsuit to see profit cut by 75%. Ford has already spun off their electric and autonomous division into a new company, and getting to cut our pensions and contracts by going bankrupt and putting all their cash into the new company will soon look like a good option to them. The family controls the company and almost half of all stock, and they only care about themselves. We are getting dangerously close to 2007 territory again, and if you realize Ford's most profitable vehicle, the F-150 is consistently sold with up to $11,000 rebates to get them off the lots, all it would take is a small economic downturn and they couldn't move them with 15-20K rebates. The billions it would take (8-15) to stop production in South America & Europe, and drastically reduce it in China, coupled with low profit in the USA and retooling & development cost for new products in the next 2 years, and the cost of buying out all the employees would exceed all their cash reserves. They can't mortgage everything again like 10 years ago, and no one will give them enough credit to get by this time. The people in the Glass House are getting very worried and the media and Wall Street are noticing and starting to comment about the possibility of Ford going broke. This turnaround will take at least 2 years and we may run out of time and money before that. We will become a much smaller company in either case, with probably a third fewer workers within 3 years. I don't like our chances in the upcoming contract, the union will probably sell us out the worst they ever have!

Only 530 people have 30 plus years as of the end of August.(another 200 will hit 30 within a year) We've had over 450 people retire in the last 16 months. Half our plant is already second tier and temps.

A message from our UAW plant chairman Larry Stewart indicated the 5 upcoming down weeks at FRAP were increased to 9 total weeks by January. The company is still trying to find ways to keep 2 shifts going, but I think as soon as MAP gets ready to start its' second shift, we will have someplace to put a lot of our lower seniority members if we lose our afternoon shift. I am amazed they haven't cut their losses yet and cut B shift. (We are currently working about 35 hours a week and that will drop even more next month.) The company hates our plant and our workers, but as much as they don't want to, they will probably have to offer buyouts to clear out the 30+ year people. If they wait until contract time, those workers will also be eligible for signing bonuses and it will cost Ford a lot more to get rid of them. They would save hundreds of millions in health care costs to get as many current workers to retire and let VEBA foot that bill. As our credit rating is reaching junk status, Ford will need to spend some cash for buyouts in order to save big money on legacy costs. Fuzzymoomoo, I couldn't agree more about Hackett. Even if he had some leadership skills, the public and Wall Street investors see him as a failure, which makes everything Ford does seem like a failure! Somebody get Alan Mulally on the phone and cut a deal to bring him back ASAP!

It's already been announced that the Mustang is going to be a wide body for 2022 model on the CD6 platform. It will be on the same RWD/AWD platform as the Explorer. Autoline covered this 2 months ago. The point is it won't be on an unique platform anymore, so other plants could build it. FRAP could build other CD6 platform cars if we are still around to do it, but the way we are losing money, Ford is only worried about the Mustang, not about this plant!

They can scare everyone into doing a better job, but with no money being spent to improve anything, that won't really work. Morale is the lowest I've ever seen, and ours is usually pretty low anyway! Reliable sources (from the Glass House telling plant higher ups) are saying contracted bosses will be cut October 1 and the second shift will be cut soon after. Our production numbers are dropping fast and we are now working less than 40 hours with a 420 build number. Next month it starts at 370 and drops to 320 within that month. How long can you have 2 shifts running 30-35 hours a week? Our max production is 280,000 units a year. We are currently at 140,000 and dropping. 90 percent of the 2019 Lincolns are already built. (total sales this year will be around 12,000...we did 18,000 last year) This year we will sell under 80,000 Mustangs in the states and another 45,000 around the world. Ford doesn't have anywhere to put 1,500 displaced workers, or they would have cut a shift 6-12 months ago. Luckily for them over 500 people have retired in the last year as most originals were hired in 87 (when the plant started) and 88. I finally moved into the top 1,000 in plant seniority after 2 decades, and we still have over 500 workers with exactly 30 years or more left. Half of our entire workforce is part time or has 2012 or worse seniority! Afternoon shift has a horrible attendance problem and 70% of them have a restriction or FMLA! The part timers and day shift people working over to help afternoons start up are the only thing keeping it going! I know it is bad at lots of other plants, but they all have good selling products. We will be this slow for 2-3 more years. If we stay on 2 shifts, a lot of us will have to get a second job!

The Glass House told our new plant manager and asst. plant manager they were being sent in to get Flat Rock into tip top shape, and if they didn't, we wouldn't have to worry about 2 shifts or even 1 shift. They threatened them with the possible closure of FRAP. We have been told the Lincoln can be run out before next summer and the Mustang can be moved. (In a few years it will be built on the new CD-6 midsize platform that every other midsize will share) They could still build autonomous vehicles and have the data center, but no mass production vehicles would have to be made there. The thing all of have to worry about is the annualized rate of vehicles made in North America is set to drop from a current 17 million down to 12-13 million in 5 years. Autoline Daily reported this in July and Ford and GM both agreed with it. The new ride sharing and autonomous vehicles are said to replace 15 new regular vehicles with only 1 of them. A third less teenagers are getting drivers license's than in past decades and far fewer young people can afford ANY new cars. The payment, insurance and rising gas prices are getting to be too far out of reach even if mommy and daddy help them out. Autoline is based out of Detroit and is highly respected in the business and auto community. Autoline's host, John McElroy also recently reported that Ford and GM are expected to only need 60% of their current plant capacities within 5 years. Less cars made, less plants needed; equals less workers. I believe we will see plant contraction again soon after contract negotiations. Cities are being pushed to use far more public transportation, young people have taken to it in big numbers and can't afford new cars anyway. We will see lots more ride sharing cars available soon and zip cars are taking off in big cities right now (they are parked on the street wherever the last person left them after renting them. You swipe your credit card in them and drive where you want and it charges your card once you are done). The prediction of the annualized rate didn't even factor in any possibility of recession, which would speed up the 5 year projection timetable even faster. More people are buying used cars every day because they can't qualify for a new car loan or lease. Hell, some people's mortgages are less per month than a new car payment on a 50,000 car with on a 6 year loan! Other plants with trucks and SUV's have way more job security than FRAP, but if the industry shrinks 40% in 5 years, we will lose 2 or 3 plants. Ford knows this and that's why no one gets hired when people retire now. They keep using part timers because we might lose 10,000 to 15,000 full time jobs within 5 years. FRAP won't fix anything in the plant that doesn't relate to assembly and production. The air conditioning in the shop office/HR has been broken since May. Almost all bathrooms flood with backed up or overflowed sewage, burnt out lights aren't replaced anymore, fans aren't fixed anymore, roof leaks are just tarped...NO MONEY is being spent because they are not sure of the plant's future. I've been through 2 shift reductions in 2 decades, but this seems a lot worse. We almost closed right before we got the Fusion and were saved on the last possible day by a deal cut by the union. I'm not confident we will be that lucky again in the near future.

Decker, I and most workers at Flat Rock have seen this coming for awhile. Ford is cutting spending on almost everything. We have a hard time getting new batteries for our bluetooth guns, most tugs are pulling parts trains with batteries that don't hold a charge and could die any minute, new parts racks are very rare, the bathrooms flood and half the toilets are broken. Ford won't even allow treatment of injuries unless it's a broken bone or deep cut. If you go to medical and say I hurt my back, shoulder, knee, whatever...they tell you it didn't happen here. They will give you ice to put on it and tell you you're not allowed to seek treatment for this injury at the plant again, you'll have to see your own doctor for it. They are forcing workers out by saying it's a personal injury and there is no work available. Ford knows a big downturn is coming and knows their customer base is shrinking rapidly. They are in total survival mode because they see how many sub prime car loans for them (and the industry) are being defaulted on. Leases are one third of all new sales, and defaults on those are rising fast too. They know potential customers under the age of 30 can't afford a new cars without their parents help. I saw on Dave Ramsey's financial radio show that 21% of all federal student loans in the last 2 years are guaranteed to default because those "students" actually took all the money from the loan and bought Bitcoin with it! That's millions of young people who will NEVER qualify for a car loan or lease, let alone save enough cash to buy one outright. I agree Ford will ask for major concessions in the next contract to keep their "profit margins on target". I believe they will try to buyout and convert future pensions into 401K's, and pay cuts and more tiers are certainly a possibility. The union will sell us out to keep their numbers and dues at high levels. Ford can make higher profits on trucks, SUV's and crossovers, but those sticker prices are getting WAY too high for more and more people to even THINK of affording. Gas prices can be a budget concern, but insurance prices are what will put a new car out of reach soon for millions. A lot of people actually pay more per month for insurance than their LEASE payment! Get one ticket if you're under age 26 and your rates can double overnight! For most of us who saw the crash of 2008 coming, Americans are in WAY worse shape financially now, as compared to 10 years ago. Wages are flat, rent / food / utilities are WAY higher and debt levels have doubled in the last decade. You remember asking back then, "how are these people able to afford these big houses and new cars"...it's the same as now...THEY'RE NOT! Ford knows they are only a few major lawsuits or large recalls away from being bankrupt. They know we workers are the biggest cost they have and will ask for concessions to stay profitable. Yes Decker, it's a commin'!

Our new model and launch team trainers have friends at the Pilot plant working on the 2020 Continental, but no vendors here have any parts for it they are scheduled to produce. Ford product plant placement paperwork that lists every model scheduled to be produced in North America reveals no 2020 Continental. That means they are shipping production of it to China. The market for it is growing there, unlike here, where sales drop EVERY month! Ford isn't ahead of the curve, dropping car production because more people buy SUV's, trucks and crossovers, it's actually that they desperately want investors to view Ford like they view GM and Tesla. They can't make big profits on cars, so they cut costs everywhere and produce everything BUT cars, hoping the higher profit margins will entice investors. We employees are the main investors in this company outside the Ford family. Nobody else wants the stock or believes in the company. Ford is quickly becoming irrelevant and it is scaring the shit out of the Ford family. That's why they have been leaking all the info on the car lineup being vastly reduced for months. They WANT the press to see they are a modern, progressive, adaptive automotive/mobility company. The autonomous movement will fail for next 5 years, with multiple costly lawsuits and insurance laws that will need to be rewritten. Ford will lose Billions on this. I predict they will propose at contract time to look into offering lump sum payouts to convert future pensions into 401k plans. (GM did this) The Big 3 got rid of their biggest legacy cost, retiree health care, with VEBA. Current pensions couldn't be easily converted, but future pensions could be. If Ford ever goes bankrupt, the current pensions still get paid until the money runs out. People not collecting or not 30 year eligible yet would not see a dime. A pension buyout rolled into a 401K protects against losing your pension in bankruptcy. Our inept top management could easily burn through all cash reserves chasing the latest trends and desperately trying to appear cutting edge like Tesla. They are cutting so many stations on the assembly line to vastly increase profit margins, but the quality disappears and lots of workers are getting injured trying to keep up with these overloaded workstations. Ford is making tons of mistakes and repeating many more. Chinese car companies will be exporting their own low priced cars to the U.S. by next spring. With our lineup disappearing, our car customers will buy what is available and what they can afford.

It was all posted on the news this morning. Ford is killing all car production except for the Mustang and the new Focus Active crossover. Most of this info has been available for six months!

Nothing...we lost the all electric small Lincoln SUV to Mexico. It starts there in 2020 when they remove the Fusion and MKZ. There is another small SUV planned, Ford calls it the Bronco's little brother. It will compete with Jeep. No word on where it will be built in 2 years.

We lost the small all electric Lincoln SUV production to Mexico. Our management is horrible, they lie to the Glass House about everything. Our union can't get the company to follow our contract. It is total chaos here and I've seen over two decades of chaos, 2 loses of a shift, the loss of a partner (Mazda) and watched hundreds of workers just retire after they finally got their 30 years in and couldn't wait for a buyout or even for the 2019 contract signing bonus. Ford told us there will be no buyouts and we will make life hell for you at the plant to make you quit and keep using part timers to boost profit margin. THEY WERE NOT LYING! Thanks for your concern Decker. Plant morale is at an all time low, they keep eliminating work stations and adding work to everyone's job. They constantly speed up the line by 2 or 3 cars an hour and the union has proof and does nothing. The next two years will suck, we will get another unnamed vehicle in 2020 to replace the Lincoln SUV they took, then an autonomous vehicle in 2021 that no one will buy. (Ford projects 4,000 units annually...big whoop!) The small SUV would have built on a separate sub line that the autonomous vehicles will be built on. Our mainline carriers are set up for mid size cars (Mazda 6, Fusion, Mustang, Continental) We can't build trucks or large SUV's. We are essentially a Mustang plant that can build specialty low volume cars or electric/autonomous cars on a separate yet to be built line. We don't have a solid moneymaker that most people want like the Explorer. We have toys that most people don't need or can't afford anyway. What could go wrong?

Try a Google search...Ford internal paperwork was released 4 months ago showing no U.S. production of the Continental in 2020, fueling rumors production would be shipped to China. This week many articles have been published stating Ford is killing the Taurus and Continental, the 2019 models are the last. Last December reports stated the Fusion and MKZ won't be built in North America after 2019. Motor Trend Dec 14, 2017 article. FordAuthority.com Mar 14 2018 article states the current gen Continental (2019 model) will be the last. Our unit trainers have been telling us this for months. The car has flopped in the U.S., with only 12,000 sold here in the states in 2017 and about 6,000 units being shipped to China. As for the Taurus, there is a 2020 Chinese next generation model, but Ford announced all over the news a year ago there is no 2020 American model, the 2019 is the last model. Every upper management and pilot plant person I've talked to who train our unit trainers / new model people have said Ford is moving away from cars and going for high profit trucks, SUV's, crossovers and new electrics and autonomous vehicles. Ford is losing a ton of money on the Continental with low sales, recalls, production and warranty issues. They gambled big on Lincoln and so far only the new navigator is paying off. A fully loaded Continental can cost you 80k. Some Chinese buyers are willing to fork over that much, but only 12,000 people bought a Conti last year in the U.S., and most of those were cheaper 50k-60k models. Ford is on a VERY strict budget at its car plants and is getting cheaper by the day. They won't hire our part timers who have 2 years in even though over 350 workers have retired in the last 6 months. We have thousands of new cars in our lots waiting for replacement parts and hundreds of new cars every day don't pass inspection. Our plant is losing money, the Continental is losing money and sales are dropping, how is that buying into rumors? I've been through losing a shift twice here and it almost happened again in January, but there is no place to put 1,400 of our workers because MAP is laying off a shift, so we are trying to ride it out. If you have the capacity to make 280,000 cars a year on 2 shifts and you're only making 140,000 and dropping, it's not practical to work 2 shifts 30 hours a week and pay them for 40 for months (or years) on end.

Everyone knew the Taurus was ending, but it was confirmed the 2019 Continental will be the last model. North American Fusion/MKZ production ends in 2020, with possibly no exports to America available. The Continental is the only thing keeping us on 2 shifts at Flat Rock. We had 6 straight months of not even getting 40 hours until recently when we launched the 2019 Continental. No new product is scheduled for us for 2 years, so late this year losing a shift is a high probability. You can't keep 2 shifts running with only 1 car left that sells globally under 130,000 units a year. 2016 Global Mustang sales hit 150,000, but dropped last year. Global Continental sales last year were under 20,000. Our total production for 2018 will be lucky to hit 125,000 units. Ford will have to decide quickly if they want to replace the Taurus, Fusion and Continental with one car based on the Conti platform, which is basically a stretched Fusion platform. They've hinted at it, but if they think everyone just wants a truck or a crossover, the Mustang will end up being the last car standing. The Fiesta will be killed, the Focus will be imported from China and sales will keep nosediving until they stop selling it here, which will end the Ford car lineup. I'm glad our truck and SUV/crossover plants will all be running full tilt soon, but there is a real possibility of consolidating plants again in our near future. Chicago and Flat Rock don't have enough products to fill them both. Autonomous sales for us in 2021 are slated at only 4,000 units and will provide very few jobs, the same as our new data mobility center. Self driving cars are not going to take off like Ford management thinks. It might take another decade for self driving cars to become a hit and may take that long to get our roads in good enough shape to keep those autonomous cars from crashing into all the potholes! Car prices have risen so sharply that people under 30 can't possibly afford $500 - $600 a month payments, that's why a third of all new sales are leases, but even if they lease, their monthly insurance payments can be more than their lease payment! $2,000 - $4,000 a year for full coverage insurance in Michigan is the norm. We are starting to quickly lose customers who can actually afford a new car. Bad credit, student loan debt and credit card debt are crippling young (and lots of older) peoples' ability to buy a new car. New car loans can be financed for 7 years now...84 months of payments! WOW, and sub-prime car loans that are defaulting by the hundreds of thousands are going to cause the economy bubble to burst soon just like the sub-prime housing loans did back in 2007. Yes the stock market is high, unemployment numbers are low (part time jobs and people who gave up looking keep those numbers artificially low), but we all know most people are in debt up to their eyeballs and another crash is coming. The 2019 Contract talks should be very interesting! (Did I mention Flat Rock STILL DOESN'T have a local contract?) Good luck to us all.

You have to realize that taking the "first offer" from the third company bargaining IS NOT the same as the taking the first offer from the lead company. Chrysler low balled the first offer, with lower pay for the second tier. It was voted down, and Chrysler came back with their best offer, which was passed. GM goes next and uses pattern bargaining to match all pay rates with Chrysler, but doesn't offer early retirement for skilled trades, who vote it down, with hourly passing it. Ford watches all of this and adjusts what its' best offer will be. It matches all pay rates, gives $500 more than GM's signing bonus (with $1,500 in pull ahead profit sharing) and offers 10k more than GM to BOTH hourly and skilled trades for early retirement. Even though it was technically their "first offer", the terms were modified as Chrysler and GM bargained. In a pattern agreement, Ford duplicates the other 2 companies terms for pay and work rules, then can offer whatever they want in bonuses. We were NEVER getting higher pay than the other 2, or COLA back when they didn't get it. We were NEVER getting a shorter term for second tier to max out than the other 2. We would be risking a strike to get more bonus money, or more plant and product commitments, which they could have reduced to give us more bonus money. We got some things back and got the second tier a brighter future with a finite date for getting max pay. It was by no means perfect, but we made gains and will try to get more next time. In 4 years things could be slowing down and they might not have the same profits to share with us. This is the nature of the business. Budget your signing bonus like it was a bigger raise or COLA. They will always give more bonus money over higher top wages, which costs them more every work week than a one time bonus check. This simply was their best offer and they knew how much bonus to give to get a probable YES vote. With some questionable Rouge Complex / DTP goings on, they got their YES vote. We could have done A LOT WORSE!

FRAP approved the national contract with 1442 yes and 1405 no. We recently voted our local contract down and Ford WILL not return to the bargaining table. They told us NO! For those of you who think Ford won't play hardball, think again!

The highlights say lump sum bonuses not just profit sharing, CAN now be put into TESPHE. So the 8,500 signing bonus and the 1,500 pull ahead profit sharing can both be put into TESPHE. This is a nice addition! I didn't think they'd get that in negotiations. Page 14 of 28 (19i)

. It always has been a rule in our local contract for one hour between shifts. They started having only 30 minutes, then hit 11.5, which we would be done at 6pm, the same time b shift starts. 10 hours of ot per week is fine for most people, but there can be such a thing as too much.

Not bitching about it, the company violates too many contractual rules. They finally got called on it. We are supposed to have one hour between shifts, we don't. That is a safety hazard and parking nightmare. They call early overtime breaks, which isn't allowed... You have to be in overtime to have an overtime break! They also give us overtime breaks at the end of shifts, which isn't allowed.

We run a 5 day 8 hour schedule, but have been forced to work up to 11.5 hours in Trim and Final for months. Our chairman, Larry Stewart just helped get a tentative local contract,then told Ford they were abusing contractual language by running us more than 10 hours. We are in change over/new model change, App H section 9. The company claims section 10, which is new car program or new shifts.We are not in critical status and right hand drives don't qualify as new products. Larry called bs on this and the IUAW backed him. We were told this morning to walk off at 10 hours if they called longer than that. They just announced 10 hours, so hopefully they are done abusing us. The company also claims we are in a launch status, but different versions of existing products is not NEW. The Continental will be new.