97 F350

The list keeps growing. First it was Toyota trucks dropping their spare, now this. Maybe they could market these as accessories for a special Death Race 2000 edition Vette.

And I'll pour the salsa on it for you to help it go down easier. When we looked at replacements for our 01 Windstar last year, the interior on it was STILL nicer than the the new T&C - much less the down-market Caravan. Miles of cheap, flimsy-looking plastic in odd colors.

Hey! I had the hatchback version of that back in college. It was actually a pretty good little car for a tin can. Just don't try to play bumper cars with a Silverado, and you were OK!

Agree - it is an advantage. Just not as big of one as it's made out to be. That's why I called it a marketing gimmick. Sounds like we are getting into personal preference territory. We went with the everyday - it drives so much better than a minivan, than the once in a blue moon - it's easier for an adult to get in the rear seat. Kind of like I was saying about putting a piece of plywood in a minivan. It's an advantage, but is it worth the eternal trade-offs for the one time that might actually happen?

How about using all the money that is going to be needed to put in recharging stations and embedding a rail in all the streets? It would be just like our old slot-car race sets.

Easier yes. Much easier - debatable. Our oldest daughter has cerebral palsy and manages just fine. It's just an oversold marketing gimmick. Just like the ability to carry a 4' x 8' sheet of plywood in a minivan. Nope. Talking about - we compared a minivan to a CUV (station wagon in reality) - and we picked the CUV. And we have practical experience in both types of vehicles. But all the "benefits" of the minivan weren't worth the trade-off of everyday drving experience. And we made the same comparison you did. Flex vs. minivans. And bought basically the previous verson of the Flex and not the Flex only because of financial reasons. In our comparison - the Flex won - we just couldn't swing it right now.

Bingo. Wasn't going to reply at all in this thread - there's just a lot of bitchin back & forth, but this post actually summed up my feelings pretty good. This is us, 3 kids - two in car seats. And we ditched the minivan for a station wagon that would seat seven. Yes we gave up space behind the rear seat. In real life terms, maybe two suitcases worth. But we haven't looked back. Daily driving is so much more enjoyable, that the 3% (if that) of time that we need the extra space, we can work around it. If we had gone with another minivan - it probably would have been the VW Town & Country. But all the selling points - - more room to move around? - didn't understand that - can your kid walk around in the back while driving?, - the stow- n-go which came in two versions - the butt-busting buckboard version or the plush one (like the picture in this thread). Except, then the plush version didn't Stow - it just flipped forward - the headrest went in the hole and was tethered down. So maybe it should be just called Go. - more rear storage - those two extra bags of groceries - big whoop - sliding doors - heavy, breakage prone, especially if automatic - been there, paid for it were not worth the daily hassle of driving a bloated water buffalo of a vehicle any longer.

Yep - we tried them both out - same problem. And it's big enough - plenty of room for another seat with one it it. And we use the BIG car seats - Britax. I wonder if they have an aftermarket kit for that - salesmen said that Ford didn't have one because it's integral with the seat. Obviously it's not a deal-breaker and we work around it, but it is a small aggravation that seems like it could be fixed inexpensively on Ford's part.

100% agree. Actually made me laugh out loud. I think I found your problem - that's more than we pack for a week-long trip with 3 kids. Twins don't like each other and need separate pack-n-plays? Just make friends with the Thule rep or the U-Haul owner. The biggest aggravation I have with our Freestyle (and the Flex has it too) is that there is only one car seat tether on the last row of seats. There are two on the middle row, but that hoses your seat-flipping options. I so wish both back seats had it - and it would have cost - what $10 in materials at the factory?

I also find it interesting that a person that needs a minivan or something similar hates the Flex. We have the forerunner of it (Freestyle - which has even less leg room) and love it. We looked at getting a new minivan to replace our Windstar and then looked at the Flex. Really wanted it - just couldn't swing the $ so went with a used Freestyle. It is a 100% improvement over our minivan. It actually drives like a car instead of wallowing all over the road like a minivan. I remember the knock against the Freestyle was the motor wasn't powerful enough and it was slow. For crying out loud - it's a replacement minivan! How fast does a Sienna or T&C accelerate? And as far as carrying people - we have 3 kids - two in car seats. And we fit fine - including luggage. And carry additonal people - like my uncle with the walker (which fits). Only time I see us running out of space is if we take a cross-country Chevy Chase style vacation for a couple of weeks. But that is what the roof rack is for.

Mine: 1997 F-350 - Powerstroke - 335,000 miles - right now getting worked on - new sway bar bushings, power steering pump, alternator, oil leak Wife's: 2006 Freestyle - 61,000 miles Toys: 1996 Mustang GT - 215,000 miles -runs but engine needs rebuilding. 1986 Mustang GT - 135,000 miles - waiting on clutch replacement and a/c work 1964 Falcon - a mess - around 61,000 miles.

This article in Business Week had a couple of interesting points. http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-01-0...-10th-year.html Cadillac's sales for the year = 109,092 Lincoln's for the year = 82,847 %-wise, Cadillac's sales are quite a bit higher than Lincoln's. But number-wise - it's only about 26,000 vehicles. And how many billions has GM poured into rebuilding Cadillac in the last few years? And I think it's pretty much agreed that Ford has neglected Lincoln during the same time. Doesn't seem like a very good return on GM's investment. And it also looks like Lincoln passed Infiniti (81,089) for the year.

Didn't London put a ridiculously high daily tax on all vehicles that drive into it or something? I seem to remember reading about it and it made traffic drop off the cliff.

And I have a Daileng (sp?) no-name Chinese brand DVD player that I bought in 2002 for $29 that is going strong. What is your point? I also have a Sony (mfg in Japan) phone that is worthless as you can't hear anything on it. In fact, Sony is the one electronics brand I will not buy anything else again. Too many bad experiences. My kid's clock-radio doesn't work after about six months. How does Sony screw up a clock radio? Is your Dell or Apple junk? A large percentage of it was assembled in China. How about your Ipod? Total piece of crap - right? http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/news/article...-factories.html There is a lot of junk coming out of China. If your only concern is cheap and you shop at the dollar store or wally-world - you get what you pay for. But a very large amount of stuff is made there that people have no idea. If you demand a quality product from a Chinese company you will get it. (and have good quality control procedures which you need to have domestically as well) If you don't demand it, you will get crap. Just like here. It depends on what I am buying. If I am buying something cheap and disposable - I know it will be a piece of crap and expect to use it only once or twice. If I am buying a brand name item made in China, I expect it to perform just as well as one made here. My Haier refridgerator has had no problems, while my Maytag washing machine (made in Iowa) is a pile of stinking crap. We are dying to replace it - just don't have the money saved up. One thing was - the volume of foreign trade is so many magnitudes greater these days. Remember walmart used to advertise "made in the USA" stuff until sometime inthe 1990s when they decided to go for the lowest price possible which coincided with China trade really starting to boom. Korean stuff was here and cheap before that - just people didn't either realize it or it wasn't as commonplace as the Chinese made stuff is nowadays. I am just using LG as an example, because they are so popular right now - but before they renamed themselves about 15 years ago - they were a complete joke. Here is a quote from a home theatre enthusiast web site that I think is pretty funny.

Hey now - that's just going to increase illegal immigration. Imagine how many more unauthorized workers we will need to man all those new push brooms that will have to be imported from China. And imagine the pollution caused by all the containerloads of brooms coming over. Those gas blowers are actually environmentally friendly.

But not as long as the Japanese had. They blazed the path that transititioned "Made in X" from meaning a pile of crap to meaning excellant quality. Then the Koreans followed the same path - just a shorter timeframe. Now it's the Chinese turn. They have a nice successful model already laid out for them to follow. And they have the funds to do it. Yes some of their companies make a garbage and direct rip-offs of other manufacturers vehicles, but there are also some very nice cars being made over there. Volkswagon and Buick are not by any means supplying the bulk of the now world's largest car market - most of it is homemade and some are very good. Same thing happened/is happening in appliances and electronics. First it was garbage Japanese products. Then they were the best. Then the Koreans. Anybody ever buy one of those el cheapo Goldstar monitors with the sick yellow letters on a black screen. The cheapest things sold. Now everybody wants a LG washer/dryer/fridge/TV. GE was trying to unload their appliance division a couple years ago, Maytag got bought by WHirlpool and production when to Mexico. Now the Chinese are already here. Haier appliances, I think Vizio. The hill is a LOT smaller these days.

Maybe it was a lemon - I don't know - but it turned me off Nissan for good. What's funny is I really liked the Renault Encore I had a few years earlier which everybody calls a turd. Great college car - cheap to fill up. Only reason I got rid of it at 110k was it was not the studiest vehicle ever built. I rear-ended a Silverado and scratched his bumper a bit. Completely totaled the front of the Encore - like smashing a beer can on your head.

I had a 93 Sentra SE-R also. Only car I have ever bought new. Biggest piece of tin-can crap I ever owned - slightly beating out a tired old 90 Pontiac Grand Am. I sold it before it had 60,000 miles - lost a ton of money on it - was upside down big time and it had no resale value and was glad to get rid of it. I consider it the biggest automotive mistake I ever made. I buy most of my cars used - usually at around 60k miles and then drive them for another 100k or so. This car at just over 50k had blown head gasket, clutch replaced, CV joing, passenger mirror falling off, various trim pieces cracking etc. And I didn't dog it - this was my car for getting good miles back then - I had a 86 Mustang GT (still do) for having fun. Only Datsun I would want now would be 240Z.

http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Inves...;_blg=1,1407666 Couple of interesting points. 1) Hyundai might pass Nissan in sales. 2) Wasn't Ghosn the "golden boy" just a few years ago and Nissan was the company that could do no wrong. It's very easy to lose momemtum in the car business.

They were 7-8 times bigger last year. Now they are about double (15-16x). Look at the YTD %'s through Oct 08 and Oct 09. http://online.wsj.com/mdc/public/page/2_30...html#autosalesE

A couple of interesting #'s from this link. Everybody in the press mentions how Chrysler is dropping sales because they don't have any small fuel-efficient vehicles, etc. But look at SMart and Suzuki. Both dropped 54% year over year and all they have are small vehicles. The only brand with higher % drops are Chrysler brand and 3 that GM is phasing out - Saab, Hummer and Saturn. I think both are also heading towards oblivion. How can you sustain a non-premium brand on annual sales of less than 25,000? Smart might make it because it is basically sold as a model of Mercedes and not a stand-alone brand. Another thing to note is how far Chrysler brand has dropped. They only sold 9,000 vehicles last month. Jeep now almost doubles their volume. Maybe this is all part of their grand strategy to move Chrysler upmarket. Low sales = exclusivity.

At least they are not calling it "green".

Actually this might have helped them keep afloat some till they got bailed out. How many billion in cash did they get for part of GMAC? Then when all the loser mortgages in the GMAC subsidiary blew up - they actually lost less money than they would have if they owned the whole enchilada. How much of the design for Buicks in China is rebadged Opels? Aren't they moving to in house work over there? I agree they still need a European presence. The whole business is moving towards a global model (think Fiat grabbing Chrysler and looking for more) and GM is going in the other direction.

Are we going to be seeing a Ram-based Fiat now? \ Or a Alfa Ram-eo?

So close, but not quite.......... All you need to to from here is open up the bed to the cab area, add a hard top and voila!!!!! BRONCO Kill about three threads with one stone too! :happy feet: :happy feet: :happy feet: