MI451

They didn't starve to death? Actually your most likely technically correct, because they probably got sick with something else due to malnutrition but people starved to death, children were abandoned and child labor was common. But it was better before the New Deal wasn't it? ND rate is 2.6% and that's great for them. I wonder if it will die out like the West Texas/Oklahoma oil boom? That worked out well for people.

Martha was charged because of politics.

We might see that. After all we have seen violent pro-militia types recently in Vegas. We might see some violent anti-union efforts also but you never know.

They are from Afghanistan not Iraq. I have been clear that I believed in our mission in Afghanistan but not Iraq. Currently we are winding down our involvement in that country so there is little chance we will be actively using our servicemen and women to directly recapture them. My feeling is that's why the trade happened now. The US military is not going to attempt to recapture them. After 14 years in detention there is little active intelligence they could have so it's drone strikes in the future for these five.

Unfortunately we rarely take the time to examine what the reality concerning jobs, careers and education is; that if everyone bettered themselves there would still be people working at Wal Mart for little and people unemployed. We see it today where 50-60 year old degreed individuals struggle to get hired because their experience and education level would demand higher wages and benefits. I'm not suggesting that people shouldn't work for more, but it's not the cure all.

While not everyone pays income tax, 99.99% pay taxes, fees or other forms of revenue for city, state and federal governments that ends up in the general fund. Much of what we pay for social services comes from those funds, whether it's state or federal assistance. It is correct to say everyone's money.

Both sides have engaged heavily in talking points with conservatives just as guilty as progressives. Those highly opposed to Obama are just as invested in their agenda as anyone yourself included. Whether or not the captives return to Afghanistan and fight against the current or future government the exchange was the right thing to do. He deserves to be brought home, investigated and if there is reasonable suspicion, then court martial proceedings should take place.

I was just reminding Akirby that nearly everyone pays something, so it is everyone's money. I understand that everyone has ideas about how government spends it. You're right that it's not germane to the discussion about healthcare but rather a sidepoint.

With everyone's money, not other people's.

But they managed to blow up the twin towers and hide it from us. LOL

I think you described a majority of people Ranger, just happy to throw money at it and hope that someone else does the work. Whether it's charity or government the problem is that very few people want to do the work. It's easier to have someone else do the work and just pay taxes or write a check. We are not so different.

Of course they are all lazy right?

10 grand? Across four years or upfront? Upfront then probably, but I'd vote no.

We can just leave it at that then.

I realize that you haven't figured out yet that I am not arguing for or against the dues raise but solely against the notion of "forcing or recording" the vote. It doesn't matter to me or my argument whether or not any member wanted the raise. That's history. The answer to your questions is, I don't know and I don't care. I haven't asked anyone their opinion and now it is reality. What you're arguing is that the membership elected their delagates poorly and now we should be able to punish the delegates for the memberships mistake. Or worse that we should elect people who are merely placeholders for predetermined decisions. Either way it removes the membership from it's culpability for their choices.

If Google is really the government then that blows all the theory about big government right out the water. They are fairly efficiently and run circles around Microsoft and Apple. If, and I say if, Google is the government then I say "damn fine job."

What if C A T really spelled dog- Ogre

Well, that would have to do with other economic factors, which you conveniently overlooked. The economyand standard of living in any state is not a single celled organism that develops only because of that one variable. Your suggestion fails to take into account resources, population, both consumer and labor, and many other factors including land mass. And you might be forgetting that Europe was rebuilding after a world war while we were not. That type of thing might depress the living standard just a bit.

They are a true representation because they were ELECTED by the membership. The membership was given a chance to pick their delegates and did so correct? Perhaps they choose poorly, but they still choose them. Maybe the membership should be forced to a roll call vote so we can all know who choose the delegates that voted for it too and hold them accountable. See, I'm picking up what you're laying down, make every vote public knowledge so we can punish voters for being unwise.

You are arguing two different points as if they are the same. Delegates are not membership approval votes for resolutions to the convention are they? Don't confuse the two or the issue we are discussing. We still disagree on the matter of delegates voting their position and if it should be recorded. I doubt either of us is going to change the others opinion. Just so we are clear you should be electing delegates that will use sound judge and vote their conscious. If you want a delegate to go to the convention with a hardline preformed opinion not open to hearing the other side then our union is in rough shape.

Yes, everyone who disagrees with you must be some union official. LOL. I would love some free donuts however.

That made me laugh and then throw up in my mouth a bit. If you expect me to believe that elected officials are subject to any sort of roll call vote for their actions behind closed doors then perhaps I'm not the naive one. Winnable grievances get withdrawn while certain losers get paid off. Members are told this or that was argued while the truth is that it wasn't. The last group of people that should be held up as honest brokers held to a standard is our elected officials. I made the case for voting one's conscious free of intimidation and that is all. If you feel they should be subject to rigorous standards then may I suggest recorded transcripts for all dealings with labor by elected officials.

Did you ever figure out the issue with your math? I figure we should address that first then discuss my supposed dream world.

Business, including religious ones should only cover burth control pills for medical reason outside of avoiding pregnancy. The pill, as we call it is often used to treat medical issues related to the cycle and that should trump religious beliefs concerning family planning.

No, that's not what I am saying at all. My fear as you call it is not fear but an acknowledgement of a reality, that ballots should not be public knowledge. This limits potential intimidation which can come from more than one side, whether it be union, membership, company or even outside. This is how a democratic union should work with a right to vote without being told who or what to vote for.