oldracer

i will add a couple things you didn't mention... We have a 2007 Sport Trac Limited V8 with no Nav or heated windshield but all the rest of the options.. Power seat controls, what idiot put them at the bottom of the seat in an area that you can barely get your hand down between the door panel and the seat and cannot actually see them without looking away from the road? Mercedes has them right behind the window switches, everyone ought to do that. Related complaint; where the hell is memory seats in the Limited? it's damn annoying to screw with that recalcitrant seat switch every time we change driver's to get comfortable.... My final complaint is where is the auto up feature on the power winows??? I think if you pay for a Limited it should have all the toys except Nav in the price. I echo the excellent drivetrain and ride comments, but for a few hundred $$, this could have been a way better presentation....from the instruments to the ergonomics.... As a fun problem, me being older cannot read the numbers without my reading glasses, which then precludes me from seeing where I'm going!! My solution is to memorize needle position for a given speed.....and because I drive several different vehicles, this is some fun I'll tell ya. I see Trac surviving 2-3 yrs in my fleet and being replaced at most.....I'm thinking A4 Audi Avant as my utility next time......

The production date. My Limited sport Trac is a Job 2, it was manufactured after August 1, 2006. Due to some material holds and delays we didn't get out truck until Sept 24th...great truck.

OK, I had to replace my P6's on my 05 ST...the right side tires were coming apart after impact with a cinder block dropped off a truck in front of me....it shattered and I got the big piece, nowhere to go..... No other damage, just trashed the tires though..they still had air, but were done. I put 4 205/50/16 G Sport BFG's on... WHAT AN IMPROVEMENT!!!!! The road noise and low traction issues are gone, they are even quiet on concrete stretches of road.... I only have 200 miles on them, still breaking them in until 300 miles...but turn-in and grip are way better and I expect they will get better once the heat cycles of break-in are completed tomorrow or Fri. I got them at Discount Tire, where I get all my tires, it was $425 out the door including lifetime balancing and road hazard...pretty cheap tires compared to the rest of the fleet vehicles.... They are Z rated and still aren't as noisy or stiff as the Pirelli's were. At last I have to tires that justify me removing my speed limiter ceiling..... :happy feet: :hyper: They truly transformed the car to a higher level of feel and should be standard from the factory..... but cost rules not satisfaction of customers as the top priority. That is why Honda uses Michelins on 95% of their vehicles, no problems or issues for the customer. A lesson to be learned here: a cheap tire ruins the experience of a good car, saving a few $$$ hardly justifies the vastly better overall competence and feel of the car, it feels more upscale now just because of the excellent ride and handling. Better feel and perceived value is a small tool towards building a better image and desirability, therefore a sales tool of great value.....the difference is really that big and is immediately noticeable in the first mile of driving.....

I was a Ford Service Writer for 2 years, 2000-2001. Customer service is a call center full of completely car and truck ignorant people who are simply there to make you think something might happen..we couldn't get anything from them and we knew the system..... When we had a clearly undeniable warranty problem we could fix it and submit for payment. Ford routinely cuts warranty reimbursement times to save $$. This pisses off the techs, who realyy don't like to work for free, so they avoid warranty work as much as possible. Ford also rejects up to 30% of submitted claims for whimsical or very minor issues causing extra work and re-submittal that resulted in payment most of the time. When we got a questionable claim we were required to seek approval from the District Service Manager or his assistant PRIOR TO performing the work. The decision was based more on their expenditure to date of warranty $$ than customer satisfaction or fairness. I was a Service manager for VW, Porsche, Audi for 5 years and they not only pay the dealer the retail hourly rate for warranty work, but provide a car and an apology for the inconvenience.... My daughter's Acura RSX Type S went 50,000 miles without a single problem and she got a loaner when she dropped it off for her maintenance and oil changes - FREE She bought our 2002 GT Vert in Feb 06, which is maintained by me and LaMotta Performance, I find that an easy way to keep it perfect. My point is Ford vehicles are pretty good and reliable, however everything needs a problem fixed now & then, if you treat your customer poorly in the Service Dep't, kiss them goodbye permanently. Once I leave Florida, I will be going back to owning Audi's and my Porsche in Boston, my old dealership still has some of my techs, (5) 30 years later, they service the 2 VW's my Mom has and do it flawlessly. My chevy service up there is flawless and free.....that's my reward for paying for my cousin's husband's engineering college 20 years ago.....he owns the dealership.........and takes cars of my LTZ Suburban We will always have a Mustang and probably a truck, but who knows how the dealers are up there for service...I will use Rodman Ford in Foxborough, right across from my Patriot's stadium..... My Ford dealer here may have to make house calls..............1300 miles away. I still believe Honda is the best overall car company on the planet, and if brand loyalty doesn't cloud your vision you can probably see the merit to that arguement. Product, engineering and customer Service come together there better than any place except high-line dealers. No they aren't perfect either, but they admit it and try to please their customers..... The Ford Exec at the car show agreed with that assessment and wants Ford to be there as well.....let's hope they get there....it would be nice.

I wanted a pickup bed for incidental household use, (lawnmower, edger, mulch etc.), that could be useful as a driver 95% of the time. We bought a 2007 Sport Trac V8 Limited with everything but the heated winshield(?), Chrome pkg,(ugly & cheap looking) and the Nav system, I can still read maps, even at my age... As posted elsewhere on the board, We drove it to Mass when it had 1100 miles on it, the whole trip was 3150 miles R/T. We went up 95 from Florida to Boston running predominantly 75-95 mph on Cruise Control and simply kept up with the traffic flow. I got 19.8 mpg for the entire trip, Oh yeah, it wasn't even broken in yet. I did change to Mobil 1 and install a K&N drop-in filter prior to the trip. Since we have been back in Florida, we are now getting 18-20 city and when I drive the 100 mile R/T to KSC I get 23.8 at a steady 65-75 mph with cruise on. I would buy an Explorer V8 over the Edge without even a second's hesitation, mileage difference is minmial in the real world and trucks are tougher than CUV's anyday. I also agree that the cargo area is more useful in the Explorer. We love our Trac and I think this is the best Ford truck I have ever owned and believe me I have had about 8 so far....... Also, edge is a first year product, I have learned to never buy the first year...my trac is based on proven Explorer parts and in fact has not 1 issue or defect so far. Did I mention the $$ difference? Rebates/Discounts big on Explorer...36K for a loaded Edge is just Nuts vs 25-30K for a truck. Simply my opinion, yours will vary.

I was a big fan of Richard Petty and his contemporaries when they were racing. About 10 years ago, when "managed racing" seemed to be the way of the future, I quit being interested and watching. NASCAR,(like the NFL is doing now), has squashed personality and individual expression and instituted some of the dumbest, asinine rules to supposedly "improve" racing competition. I raced 17 years straight in SCCA and NHRA, and a total of 30 in AMA as arider & team owner, here's how it worked: 1st car/bike over the finish line won, no candyass staged pit stops, no penalty for a little "contact" in the course of racing, no fines for cursing out a fellow racer for stupid actions, no fining because your girlfriend or wife argued with someone else's GF or Wife.... No concern about gas mileage, race cars are supposed to be fast, not frugal no pit stategy and manipulation of stops; you went in when something broke or you needed tires or fuel, other than that you RACED in an attempt to be first.... I won my class racing 911's for 17 years 21 times out of 43 races, I was second 11 times, 3rd 8 times and 4th or worse 3 times.....I ran the shit out the car as God intended. So my position is inderstandable, JUST RACE DAMMIT and dump the Kindergarden rule thing....

OK, Everyone who actually gives a Rat's Ass about this please raise their hand....Are we done now? :happy feet: :boring:

Did you have the Audiophile system from the factory? I do but I'm always open to better speakers.....

Hey mrgto....next year we will be neighbors and townies....I am moving back and will build on my land on Plain St.... Last I heard Brian99 got married and got rid of his 99 Cobra for a Grand Cherokee I believe...wonder what he's up to? Talk at you later man John

My $0.02: I like my 2005 Focus ST's looks inside and out, didn't care for the early cars... I bought this as a throwaway commuter car, but after 17,000 miles since Feb, I am becoming fond of it. I drive a 100 miles/day, the heated seats are comfortable, I have a moonroof, a Sony audiophile system, all power stuff, cruise and traction control and it's a 6 disc CD as well. The Steeda CAI and SCT premium tune made it a killer little performer with the 5 spd 2.3 and it has consistently been getting 28-30 now that I have figured out the trick to filling the tank all the way everytime. Is there room for improvements, Hell yeah, but at the cost of killing it's cheap cost to own & run vs say a Civic or some other small car.... It does the job I assigned to it and the cost was very agreeable for the package. I paid $16,217 +TTT for this car, and it has all the electric and comfort amenities I like in my cars..... Yes it's FWD and traction is a problem in slippery conditions, but as a specific vehicle for a commuting task, it is unbeatable. We have 2 Mustangs, (93 Notch FHP car, & a 02 GT Vert) and a 2007 V8 Sport Trac Limited and I expect to have my 3rd Mustang next year, so Focus fits in as the utility high mileage driver and everyone that comments on it seems to think it looks good...so style like the fondness for big boobs is in the eye of the beerholder.....and like all opinions doesn't matter until you open your wallet to buy one..... I think my 2007 LTZ Surburban looks way better than an Expy, but that is only my opinion....and my $$$ :shades: :happy feet:

I immediately thought of idiots like Lemon when he said crazies and trolls.... A good start would be kill all the lawyers, all but 2 accountants to track the balance sheet and tell Wall St to fuck off, and run it the way businesses used to run, BASED ON PRODUCT...good product, good sales, piece of shit, poor sales. This would require smarter planning and more focus on customer desires/needs rather than just following a trend that seems to work for now. The hot & desirable cars traits should be made available in a more mainstream vehicle to capitalize on demand. I would like a Torino, or Fairlane with 4 doors, and the Mustang driveline, 6 spped or 6 spd A/T. If you want a 4 door performance sedan today, you better speak German and bring lots of $$$, there sure isn't a representative in the big 3 except for RWD charger's, 300C's and Magnum, which are still selling well and proving people want RWD cars still. I would say a Taurus sized RWD with the Mustang driveline would be a good seller and might surprise everyone with demand. GM is going RWD over the next few years, probably Bob Lutz should get credit for that, he actually likes cars... However GM isn't stupid, they must see a damn good reason to do that.....imagine trying to succeed by providing a highly desirable product. What a Concept!!!!!!!!!!!! All you young guys that worship FWD, don't even try to tell me it's better, go take one apart and checkout the shitty designs and durability of transmissions compared to a run of the mill Panther car..... It came about not because it's better at anything, but because it is easier to fabricate the car, therefore CHEAPER NO real luxury or real racecars use that system, and for a reason too....it doesn't get the job done. In the snow, FWD plows and steers poorly when attempting to turn with any degree of accuracy, RWD will drift the tail, but if you can actually drive, is much easier to deal with. Now that we have ABS and Traction control, anyone can drive in the snow...... I immediately thought of idiots like Lemon when he said crazies and trolls.... A good start would be kill all the lawyers, all but 2 accountants to track the balance sheet and tell Wall St to fuck off, and run it the way businesses used to run, BASED ON PRODUCT...good product, good sales, piece of shit, poor sales. This would require smarter planning and more focus on customer desires/needs rather than just following a trend that seems to work for now. The hot & desirable cars traits should be made available in a more mainstream vehicle to capitalize on demand. I would like a Torino, or Fairlane with 4 doors, and the Mustang driveline, 6 spped or 6 spd A/T. If you want a 4 door performance sedan today, you better speak German and bring lots of $$$, there sure isn't a representative in the big 3 except for RWD charger's, 300C's and Magnum, which are still selling well and proving people want RWD cars still. I would say a Taurus sized RWD with the Mustang driveline would be a good seller and might surprise everyone with demand. GM is going RWD over the next few years, probably Bob Lutz should get credit for that, he actually likes cars... However GM isn't stupid, they must see a damn good reason to do that.....imagine trying to succeed by providing a highly desirable product. What a Concept!!!!!!!!!!!! All you young guys that worship FWD, don't even try to tell me it's better, go take one apart and checkout the shitty designs and durability of transmissions compared to a run of the mill Panther car..... It came about not because it's better at anything, but because it is easier to fabricate the car, therefore CHEAPER to manufacture allowing greater profits........which by the way went to fund shareholder value, UAW benefits, obscene bonuses, Jac's salary, etc, the savings was not passed on to the buyers..... NO real luxury or real racecars use that system, and for a reason too....it doesn't get the job done. In the snow, FWD plows and steers poorly when attempting to turn with any degree of accuracy, RWD will drift the tail, but if you can actually drive, is much easier to deal with. Now that we have ABS and Traction control, anyone can drive in the snow......

I feel that the discussion was proof that people want to do a good job and excel, they just need management to get out of the way....and trust them. My favorite vehicle at the show was the 4 door Wrangler Unlimited with the hard top that is a T-Top type arrangement, it presented well and I would consider one, it was interesting and well done. Ford needs to do a Bronco to compete in that segment, I lovd the old Bronco's, no BS, just truck.

I got to talk to an Upper Middle Mgmt, (his description) Ford Exec at the Orlando car show and here is some highlights of our discussion: He approached me about my opinion of the Edge I was looking at on the floor....my comments were that it appears underwhelming, when in a setting with all of it's competition close by for side by side evaluations. The Mazda twin looks somewhat classy to me, and had no big apparent advanage over the Edge, but was swarmed with people. The driver's seat "Leather" was wearing off the outside edge of the driver's seat already and the stitching was spiltting also. His answer was that it was from the extreme usage on the car show circuit. I told him that as consumer's, that answer is unacceptable, he did not disagree, citing budget issues cause these problems. I said this has happened to 3 of myFord vehicles within the first 12,000 miles, it was fixed under warranty with no problem, but begs the question, why don't you use better materials. His answer, (as we all figured), was that the level of the quality of materials is tied to the required selling price point..... So I pointed out all the other cars in the show and told him NONE of them exhibited that problem, and it was particularly bad on a new model being introduced in 2 weeks....he again did not disagree with my observations and said getting these kinds of issues addressed and corrected was a seemingly insurmountable task due to cost being the main discussion issue controlling decisions at the upper levels. At this point I dragged him off and bought him a cup of coffee and explained about this website, (he is VERY aware of it), and he dismissed the crazies and trolls here, but said that much of the complaints and desires expressed here are widely known and discussed endlessly internally, but resolutions seem glacially slow in arriving. I suggested Ford immediately implement the 4 yr/50,000 bumper to bumper warranty as a start, he said it was ruled out at this point due to cost considerations that would be incurred. I said you already do it with your identical models of Mazdas....he said it's a numbers game, many more Fords, much higher liability... His unsolicited comment was that supplier quality is being worked and must be much better before that will happen. He stated that it is generally acknowledged (very quietly) that Honda is the best car company on the planet at this point because they focus on the customer and the product, and do what it takes to make that work, they have problems, but seem to address them better than others. His opinion of the dealer network's business practices and service was unprintable, even here... His personal frustration is that all the big 3 companies could out engineer, out produce and overtake the rest of the industry, but seem more concerned with stockholders opinions than the actual customers.....pandering to P/E ratios and cost per unit is nice, but not while you are getting your ass kicked....they just seem unwilling to take the risks needed to jump ahead of the pack. He loves the company, has worked there over 30 years and wants much better across the board from them. I said we are in agreement and wished him luck.... I also suggested that they push to be first and best, rather than just competitive and cheap as priorities. I said most people would willingly pay a few hundred $$ to get a higher quality and, more durable car... one only needs to look at Honda, who is able to get higher prices for comparable models due to reputation and history of quality. Perception rules, facts are incidental to most people. I feel my Focus ST is as good and probably better than a Civic, but most people laugh at me when I say that. 16,500 miles so far, 0 problems, and about $4,500-$5000 less than a Civic Si which it compares to equipment and power wise... I did use his name or actual title as I had not asked his permission to do so. I feel if the majority of employees in decision making positions were like him, we would see a vastly improved Ford Motor Company products. I feel this issue is across the business world, not just car companies. All big corporations seem to be squeezing employees and suppliers to inflate the bottom line that ties to multi-million $$ salaries and bonuses at the personal level, but over time I believe is damaging to the corporations. They just seem very shortsighted about building a loyal customer base and keeping it on a sustained basis. We as consumers bear blame as well demanding top quality but wanting to pay Chinese prices for it. Look in the mirror, YOU are the economy, the purchase decisions you make drive demand and sourcing of products. Think if everyone just stopped buying a certain product, what an impact. Businesses count on us not being organized enough or caring enough to object to whatever they make available for us to buy...... The wages paid also cause buying power to erode making some of these decisions for consumers simply because they have only so much $$ to make do with.. but that is another discussion for another day. I personally try to buy nothing from China, or anything from Wal-mart. It seems futile, but more and more people are saying they are doing that to the extent possible. I do not buy Citgo anything because I will not fund Chavez 1 penny of my $$ to the Venezulan owned and dictator controlled company.

One could argue that Toyota and Honda are "American" companies because Mr. Demming taught them how to be successful in the car manufacturing business....he also offered the same counsel to the big 3 who blew him off....hmmmm the question is: WHO CARES?, buy what you like and shut the f**k up already!!!!

IRS has another problem no one mentioned, it's heavy.... The argument is nullified of course when looking at the Vette, IRS that works, and 3200-3300 lbs curb weight... I am a Porsche person for many reasons, but I would buy a regular C6 as a daily driver and not worry about anything. I am looking at getting a 2007 + Z06 when I complete my move to Boston and get the house built...after driving one, it is impressive, no plans to daily drive it of course...but it could be done My heart says IRS is better because I'm an old roadracer, (17 yrs worth), in 911's but the execution and inability to use even 50% of Mustang/Vette/RX8 capabiltiy on the street due to morons and tickets, tempers my enthusiasm. Honestly I would have too much daily driver with a V6 Mustang for the traffic here, but we are seldom practical in our car obsessions are we?

Siverstars are usually one of my first 3 mods to any car I aquire. Tose mods are Mobil1, synthetic ATF and rear end fluids K&N or CAI, (Steeda) Sylvania bulbs. Here in Hell, (Florida), they are available at Advance Discount Auto Parts, NAPA, or Pepboy's...I wouwwld imagine most big chains have them or can get them. about $36-$40/pair Go for the Ultras, piss off those Lexus weinies!!!!!!!! They are fairly easy to replace, consult your owner's manual under replacing headlight bulbs. DO NOT touch the lens with your finger the oil will destroy the bulb in short order... My ST is tight, our Sport Trac is not as far as access goes... Good Luck

Corrections/Updates: First Ford did a widely reported survey of current Mustang owner's before final design of the 05+ Mustangs and as also widely reported in multiple Mustang and car magazines; 85% said leave the solid axle and it's accompanying flaws/charm as is. Not surprisingly that was due to the overwhelming % of owners who drag race vs road race or do track days. The factory race team has demonstrated that a properly set-up solid axle car gives little up in racing. Most people are lucky if they know which wheels are driven, much less the difference between solid and IRS outside of the enthusiast world, (that would be us here, still a minority overall), and you know it. Quit whing about IRS, I had a 1999 Cobra and our 2002 GT Vert is 99% as good without the headaches of a poorly designed, cheap IRS system my 99 had. Yes I did add full length Steeda subframe connectors to the 02, but I never had axle hop, axle shaft breakage etc.....more than I can say for my Cobra. For the $$$ the new Mustang is a helluve bargain, and the minor flaws can easily be rectified with aftermarket parts, which still is a better financial deal than a Vette or M3, or any other RWD that can run with it.....or slightly ahead as the case may be.. Things must be different at Mazda, when we had Rotaries they would run on about any fuel.....Premium was not required, that arguement goes away because most of us retuned our Stangs to use premium anyway....SCT rules!!! My 2 friends who have/had RX8's were complimentary about fun and handling, positively unhappy with 0 torque and 19 mpg best highway ever....worse when beating it in the city, one still has his, the other bought an STI and is delerious about that thing....he drools when he talks about it.....$33K so not that much more than a loaded version of the other 2. My other buddy is planning on trading for a Saturn Sky Redline when he can get one at MSRP or better.... The GT Vert I priced out was $36.2K without the chessy mach 1000 or whatever it is now....so nothing is cheap anymore.. For me I would go Vette or Mustang 1st, then Boxter S...not much else interests me, if it were to be a daily driver that would probably be different...

I posted my Z06 road Test above this topic, well below now I guess...........

I just read every post in this thread....there's 45 minutes I'm not getting back in my life. Here is a suggestion for proper debate/disagreement/ranting: All of you made your point early in the thread, some maybe more articulately than others, but hey education varies... Then you all just got pissy and defensive with each other and do not ever indicate that the other side may have a point.....blind loyalty to anything or anybody usually doesn't end well.. Here's my old man opinion; I have owned just about 1 of of everything over the last 44 years since I bought my first car at 14, (1939 Plymouth woods car), they all have good points and bad points.... they are just machines we get attached to or not... emotion is provided by owner. I have owned Honda motorcycles, 1 Acura, NO Toyotas ever....I simply don't like them, they are nice dependable appliances, I like some spirit in my vehicles- they fail that test. I have also had Vette's 911's, Mopars, Fords up the ying yang, tons of VW's, all good I might add except 1, 1968 Z28, 6 340 Dart & Dusters, 1956 Chevy 6 cyl PU....you get the idea...I had a lot of cars & trucks in my life so far. I am satisfied with my Fords, but they could definitely be even better than they are at this point... We love our 2007 V8 ST LTD, I like my Focus ST - for what it is: Cheap commuter car that is a lot better than I anticipated it to be. My next vehicle will have to be snow friendly as we are moving back to Boston next year, my short list of candidates follows with some comments. Oh, yes I have driven each and every one of them already, although minus the snowplow in the F-250 case. Present garage items: 1) 2007 Suburban LTZ - it's on the list 'cause I already own it and it is a Tow vehicle 2) 2007 V8 Sport Trac LTD 2 WD....again I already own it and I can drive in the snow with TC and Limited slip... 3) 2005 Focus ST - Cheap 100 mile/day commuter throwawy car - as a minimum better than Civic and Corolla by a mile, and more power too....not going to Boston probably Candidates: 1) Audi Avant - DSG Quattro, blast to drive and I like the look and performance, my daily driver 2) F-250 diesel - I need a snowplow truck for an 800 foot driveway, nuff said there 3) Porsche Cayenne Turbo S - because that is what my wife wants for her company car....yes dear! covers that. 4) 2007 Z06 for me, for summer, because I want one. (and I'm gonna get a helluva deal too from cuz) (See my road test posted on the Mustang thread from my Oct drive of a 2007 Z06) I find that in my twilight years I'm drawn to more exotic vehicles and more performance as well. A car lover still. I can at this stage of my life afford to indulge us as well, so my house plans I'm drawing have a 6 car garage (36X60 with shop), drawn up and being tweaked...... some of the sharper amongst you would notice that my list = 6 vehicles - coincidence?, probably not...... Focus ST will be disposed of prior to leaving to a good home. To recap: 2 Fords, 2 Chevys, an Audi and a Porsche: where are the Toyotas and Hondas? Hmmmm I guess I don't want one that bad. I will also have a new Mustang at some point, because life without one is boring.... I have driven a Tundra my buddy owns, nice driveleine, NOT a threat to GM, Ford and Dodge by any stretch at this point. I can't imagine plowing 3 feet of snow and ice with one...but that's just me.

15 mpg city? 36.5K? Hmmm isn''t that the same #'s for an Explorer V8? I know that is what my 2007 Sport Trac V8 says on the sticker and that is what we are getting, actually we are getting nearer to 17 city..... I like the looks of the Edge, have seen 1 at the dealers as a preview...... As for Rose colored glasses for Ford products.....so what everybody sees stuff differently... My opinion is that my new 2007 Suburban LTZ is amazing is just that, my opinion, I voted for a big tow vehicle with my wallet...GM won that round with the advantage of having my cousin as a dealership owner.... I have never liked the Expy's much, and see no reason to change that opinion at this point, simply it is unappealling to me. That doesn't mean they are "bad" or anything, I simply don't want one... I think 36.5K is a lot of $$ when you are fighting an uphill perception battle with consumers...take a page from the Koreans, and sell cheaper and put a meaningful bumper to bumper 100,000 mile warranty on it....in other words put your $$ where your mouth is....and I think they could do it successfully over 3-5 years. Watch them spend $$ on quality of the highest level....quickly! The alternative is to whine and do nothing special and lose your financial ass and all those US union jobs when nobody wants to buy your stuff anymore, between the dealer bullshit and the quality perception, (however wrong it really is, and it is wrong), this is no time to be safe and timid....hasn't worked lately.... If I was Emperor shit would get done or actual heads would roll!! :hyper: :happy feet:

Amen Ford Blue Blood....very true

jpg2, I did NOT say YOU were any of thoses things. that was a general comment....I certainly don't know you well enough to be positve you are any of those types....so sorry if you took it personally.... Enjoy your Nav system....but before you bend over for Ford, check out the Pioneer version from the aftermarket, just saw a commercial and it does all kinds of things in addition to Nav...for about $2200 As for your smartass reference to Depends, I don't wear them , at my age I just shit my pants...... :happy feet: (turned 58 yesterday) Sheesh, had to correct sp and typing errors....I am getting old...

RAV4...268 hp V6...5 spd A/T low 20's.....Bingo, good sales

Somebody is overly sensitive, hey that was humor and sarcasm.....and clearly annotated as my opinion....not a reason to call us idiots.... You must be new around here, this is a rowdy and fun place, (or used to be), don't be a buzzkill....it takes too much energy... Truthfully how many people buy one for $2500 and rarely if ever use it or evne know how? Did you miss the map reference? I also find Mapquest does the same thing.........FREE.... I picture my Shelby GT500 arriving with a Nav system and that doesn't work for ME....your taste will vary, that is what's nice about having choices not mandates...you get to buy what you want...my opinion is NON-BINDING on you and vice versa...I love this country!!!! E-thugs indeed!!!; who is doing the insulting with that remark? I've been here since 1999 and been insulted way worse than your attempt....c'mon, just relax and enjoy all the wacko stuff that goes on here and contribute your share too..... :happy feet: John

Honestly guys if this is the kind of vehicle Ford is going to building, there won"t be as many unhappy customers....I can't say enough how much we love this thing.... Now if Ford can find a way to improve dealer practices, pay a decent price for the inevitable warranty work and address the shitty sales/service process you guys complain about they would be golden.... Again, my dealer here in Florida is Don Reid Ford in Maitland, they get it right on the service side consistently, in spite of Ford's incompetent and seemingly uncaring customer relations dep't and the limits put on dealers by the factory.....no shop is ever 100% good, it's how you handle the problems and issues that define your satisfaction level with your clientele. I was a Service Mananger for VW, Porsche. Audi, Mazda and have owned a retail/race radiator/A/C shop, so I think I understand what it takes to be able to please customers.... I would even speculate that as many as 50% of potential new Ford customers shopping at dealers are turned off and go elsewhere....not being a Ford loyalist, they don't feel the need to put up with any perceived bullshit during the transaction....they just go away..... I suspect Toyota & Honda are killing Ford more in that area than pure perceived quality differences....because they are not that far apart, at least according to J.D. Power polls, evne my Focus ST is rated well and at 15K miles, no issues since Feb.....when I bought it...