iluvnascar

A vote as suggested by CAW leadership at least keeps the door open a crack. A "NO" vote will just give Ford more reason to assume that St. Thomas employees are uncooperative and not deserving of a new product (or even a product extension). With the problems that GM and Chrysler have, there's always a chance that some of St. Thomas' fleet competition may not be around - and so St. Thomas needs to do everything possible to show mgmt that employees are "on the team". These are very difficult times....

That would be fine with me. In fact, I expect it to happen no matter what happens. I have no problem making concessions just like everyone else.....although being past "working age", I have a few less options open to me.

Let's not forget that Ford mortgaged their assets over a year ago and borrowed billions when money was still available. At the moment, they are better off than GM & Chrysler.....but if GM & Chrysler had borrowed billions a year ago.....and if the spectre of bankruptcy wasn't smothering GM & Chrysler, all three might just be in the same boat. There is no way that any of the Big 3 can pay the kind of wages and salaries that they are paying; and maintain the health care and pension benefits for all those retirees (remember - the transplants have no retirees....yet); and still be competitive building cars in North America. The laws of economics have not been repealed. If we want to actually make parts and build cars in North America, the entire cost structure of the Big 3 has to shrink. That means lower wages and salaries; less people; and much-increased productivity. That's what you're going to see from GM and Chrysler very soon.......and Ford needs to match or they will be in the same boat a couple of years from now.

I wish you all good luck......but you will not be able to threaten Ford. They have all the power right now. The only chance - imho - is that Ford realizes that some sales are better than no sales at all and that they can sell 80,000 CV/GM/TC per year for almost as long as they want. Overall sales are very poor and at least the CV/GM/TC helps cover some of the overhead. And so with economic conditions so rotten, I think they would be willing to add another year or two to the closure date in return for the right wage deal. Say no....and they will close it in 2011 for sure. But you'll never know unless you make that offer.

At least you recognize the reality of the situation.....that's good. But I wonder if the CAW ought to be taking the initiative in offering up concessions in return for a simple extension of the closure deadline? I don't think there is any chance that the Company is going to beoffering new product anytime soon. There will have to be a strong economic recovery and a rebound in vehicle (car & truck) sales before they will ever be persuaded to consider something. But it seems to me that St. Thomas' position might actually be quite good in the short term because sales are far less dependent upon the retail customer (who is increasingly absent from the market). And I think that the Company could be confident in its ability to sell one shift worth of CV/GM/TC for the next few years and so an extension of the potential closure date might be negotiable if the right CAW offer were presented. That's what I'd be doing..........if you want something bad enough, take the initiative and go for it.......and make the Company an offer it can't refuse. I'd be looking at it as Short-Term pain for Long-Term gain. The best choice is always going to be the one that keeps options open.

Wrong.... I am more than willing to see a cut in my pension benefits. But let's also remember that there are many ways that the CAW "all-in" wage can be cut significantly without a proportional impact on the workers. If the intent is to maintain - to the greatest extent possible - income levels.............then how about reductions in many of the fringe benefits; adding more and bigger co-pays; have workers contribute to their pensions (the company gets a 100% save of the amount; while the workers' contribution is tax-deductible); reduce union representation; loosen work rules; reduce relief allowances; reduce things such as training funds and legal assistance program; and so on. There are lots more.....lots more! Cooperation, dialogue, discussion, and a mutual understanding and recognition of the problems can move mountains.

Wrong...very wrong. Push Ford the wrong way and they will willingly tell their customers to find another source beginning in 2011. Push the right buttons and you might very well get an extension. The longer you postpone the inevitable, the better the chance for something good to happen. So don't give Ford an excuse to do something rash. After all, it's in Ford's financial best interest to get out of the fleet business.

I think that's a bit short-sighted for a plant building a dying product. At this point, the Plant should be thankful for ANY extension of D-Day and an investment by employees in their future would be a very welcome (and warranted) action. Ford employees have it pretty good and while it would be nice to keep the status quo, it's not in the cards. After all, where else would you go to find a job paying $25 per hour? (There aren't many jobs like that out there....so a financial sacrifice is a small price to pay for the security of a job in these very trying times.)

QUOTE (99Pony @ Mar 15 2009, 10:11 AM) He obviously isn't from stap if he thinks that we get 95% of pay. Buddy we get less than 80%. I didn't notice that...kind of shows what he is eh.If it means we get a deal narscar I'll only take 80% on the down weeks.You are a crude negotiator.That would be more then I get now.So where are you from?Management or troll? Sorry guys....not mgmt or a troll. Retired....from STAP. But still very interested in the welfare of the plant and all those good employees. But it was my understanding that Short Work Week pays 80% of your wages; but that SUB (i.e a downweek) is designed to provide a pre-tax benefit, when combined with Unemployment Insurance, that is equal to 95% of your normal take-home pay less $5/day (or something like that). In other words.....if you take home $1,000 in a normal working week......SUB & EI for a downweek is supposed to give you $950 less $25....or $925 less tax and other deductions. That would be about $750-$800 combined. Am I that far off base??

I wish it were possible. But the Company is certainly not in a position to offer new product to anyone when they have so much idle capacity. Things have changed in the auto business.....sales are running at 10 million (or less) annually versus the former 'norm' of 14 million or so. And it won't return to those former peaks for a long time - if at all. With unemployment high (and growing); and jobs scarce.........everyone (employees, mgmt, and retirees) need to do whatever is necessary to preserve existing jobs for as long as possible. Live to fight another day as the saying goes. IF there winds up being some combination or shrinkage of GM and/or Chrysler, Ford might find some of the competition for its CV being cancelled. That......and a substantial amount of sacrifice might encourage Ford to keep old faithful going for another year or two. But it's a real long shot. As you already know, the Plant will likely be closed by the end of 2011..........and if events keep unfolding as they have been, the closure date could be moved up - contract or no contract. GM had a contract in Oshawa also......but with no orders, the writing was on the wall. My view continues to be that an auto job - even with lower pay and less benefits - is far better than almost anything else on the outside (unless you can land a Government job). So I say hang on to a possible future as long as possible....and do whatever it takes to hang on to that future.

Instead of all the bravado..........why not proactively take the initiative and go for what you want rather than be stubborn, idealistic, and resigned to your fate? Why not offer all sorts of concessions in return for a guaranteed one or two more years of production? One or two more years brings many more closer to retirement; keeps the door open for good things to happen; and shows that we are all interested in success. Why not offer some kind of co-pay on pensions (after all, it would be tax-deductible and perhaps more attractive than outright wage reductions). Why not agree to something less than 95% of take-home pay (perhaps 80%) when the plant is down for a week or two? Because if the cost of idling the plant for short periods is less, the Company will be more inclined to keep it open longer. I'm sure most retirees would be willing to ante something up to preserve the plant for another couple of years. How about cutting back on some of the perks......reduce the legal aid contribution; reduce the social justice contribution; reduce the number of labour reps; reduce representation rules on weekends; and there are lots more) And with all the downtime, is it really such a big sacrifice to give up more vacation time.....even for a set period of time (perhaps two years)? We all need to do whatever we can to get the Company through this downturn in healthy condition. Don't forget - the entire world has been opened to free trade. I don't like it but it's the new reality. Huge numbers of cheap cars from India, China, Korea, and elsewhere will be arriving here within years. It's a race to the bottom that we cannot win. So we need to preserve jobs for as long as possible; and then count on buy-out bonuses and a solid retirement plan. The war cannot be won....so now is the time to look for the next best alternative.

I totally agree. And it's important to get out in front of this before something REALLY bad happens. If employees want to save the Company AND their jobs, now is the time to say so and start the ball rolling.

The economy - and car sales - fell off a cliff long after Ford and the UAW signed their last contract. Times have changed. A responsible union would immediately move to make the Company viable in an era of much-reduced sales.......but concessions need to be accompanied by shared responsibility among all stakeholders. In other words.....it makes good sense to cut SUB pay when workers are laid off.....but the entire salaried Ford workforce (including management and Executives) should be signing up for comparable concessions. There is no reason why Ford salaried, mgmt, and executives should not immediately agree to a 10% wage cut........with further cuts equivalent to any SUB reductions agreed to. It is imperative for Ford to cut costs across the board in order to remain viable while sales slumber along at 10 million annually (33% less than the Company is structured to build). No sense sticking your head in the sand....suffer now....and share in the good news if/when recovery is apparent.

If the UAW (AND CAW!) had an ounce of common sense, they would simply tell the Big 3 to get agreement for givebacks from the bondholders and shareholders; and, if accomplished, then agree to give them the same pay scale as the transplants have. Adopt a one-time (again) buyout program so that the senior people who don't want to see a pay cut can move on with a big cheque. That would put the North American guys on the same footing as all those transplants that everybody seems to admire and would ensure that the Big 3 survive. The transplant employees do just fine and it seems to me that the UAW and CAW should be looking for employment guarantees rather than a suicide watch on the progressive closure of the plants that employ them.

Not quite. Ford said that the plant is good through 2011. In other words, they could announce a 12/31/11 closure at any time. On the other hand, if sales plummet - and many US state Governments are now running huge deficits - I would think there is an out that would allow an earlier closure just like GM did in Oshawa (i.e market-related). I truly believe that the future of the Plant is in the employees' hands....and with the rright offer from the employees, anything is possible. If I was an emplyee of STAP, I would be talking to Steve Smith and telling him (and CAW executives) that we're in a tough situation and we should be willing to do whatever is necessary to save the Plant. And don't forget that the savings that employees aoffer flow right through to Ford's bottom line since the Company is losing money......whereas employee paycheques do not suffer as much because any givenbacks are "Pre-Tax". The actual effect on take-home pay is less. Employees and retirees can save this plant if they want to. They need to ask whether or not they are better off on the unemplyment line....or at some fast food restuarant call center earning $10/hour........or where they are now earning 420/hour. I know which choice I would make!

Unfortunately, too mant CAW members just don't understand that their jobs are in SEVERE jeopartdy; and that it is highly unlikely that they will EVER find another job paying anything close to present wage scales; and that their Company..........the Company that may have given them everything they have at this point........is in trouble. And while Ford MAY be in better shape than GM or Chrysler, For desperately needs help. I see no reason why most workers wouldn't give up something significant for some period of time until the Company (and the economy) recover. I'd gladly give up a chunk of my pension....gladly! If everyone sacrificed - executives, mgmt, salaried, hourly, and retirees - the Company would be able to get over this very big hump....and would, in my opinion, be able to minimize - perhaps even avoid - layoffs. It can be done...but there needs to be the will to do it and the cooperation to make it happen.

"...........in some case the transplants have better wages and comparable bens. then we do !" Then perhaps the "concession" stance ought to be.......we'll agree to the same wages, benefits, and work practices as the transplants. After all, that would sure take the wind out of the sails of those who are dead set against Government help because of the intransigence of the Union. If it's OK for those guys....it ought to be OK for us guys. Now that would be alevel playing field.

If anyone needs to understand why the Big 3 are in trouble.....one only needs to look at the rant that started this thread. Or many of the other threads on this site. I can't believe there are SO MANY employees in denial. The Big 3 will all go under....the only question is how soon. GM by the end of the year; Chrysler in January; and Ford a while later (sooner if Chrysler and/or GM are forced into bankruptcy). The only reason that so many people (Government representatives; Talking heads; many members of the public) want bankruptcy is because they are fed up with the attitude that they perceive as representative of Big 3 employees. Intransigence, greed, and selfishness are evident everywhere because it's those vocal employees whose voices seem to be heard. Thos who want to maintain a hard line need to recognize the harsh reality that if bankruptcy is forced upon any of the companies, the contract will be torn up and replaced with whatever the experts deem appropriate and affordable. That will be far far worse than any voluntary cuts that the employees make now. So people need to swallow hard and make some big concessions so that the companies survive and MOST employees survive - obviously, some will be let go. As a retiree, I'd be happy to offer up a portion of my pension......it's not that I want to do it....but in my heart of hearts, I know it's necessary. The Company has given me everything I have....and I'll be happy to give some back so that many others have a future. I hope that union members get the message real soon.

I think you're in denial Ed. And even if your job is safe (i.e. if you're in the top half of seniority at Oakville)....perhaps you should think about all the other guys. All for one and one for all?

There seems to be an awful lot of bravado surrounding a very serious - critical, in fact - situation. There is no question that the economy is in the dumpster......and perhaps more importantly, our biggest customer is REALLY in the dumpster. I hope everyone appreciates the condition of our customers in the US........10% of homeowners have their homes in foreclosure or are behind in their mortgage payments and many more are underwater in terms of the value of their home versus the amount owing on the mortgage. Banks aren't lending. And customers can't borrow because of existing debt on credit cards, or because their line of credit has dried up because of plunging home prices, or because their employment situation is tenuous (or worse). All of this means that auto sales will not be returning to the 13-14 million level for years....if ever. GM is only days away from running out of cash; Chrysler is just as bad; and although Ford is a bit better off right now, it's only because the Company had the foresight to mortgage all its assets and borrow heavily a couple of years ago when they could still borrow! I know it's painful........but just look at and listen to the people who have lost their jobs in Oshawa or at the Sterling Truck Plant or at one of the many parts plants that have been savaged by the economy. Don't you think it's worth personal sacrifice to try and avoid being in that situation? I sure do. I thing the CAW (and all its members) should grit its teeth and OFFER (before the proverbial gun is put to is head) an immediate 10% wage reduction; and an agreement that Short Work Week can be reduced to 75% (instead of 80%); and an agreement that layoff benefits can be reduced to 75% of take-home pay (instead of 95%). I, as a retiree, would certainly be willing to have my pension reduced by a minimum of 10%. It would be difficult....but in the name of equity, I would certainly be in favour of it. And all of this would be with the proviso that the Government guarantees loans for the Big 3 and that the Big 3 would guarantee no terminations for four years (i.e. through 2012, they could lay off but not terminate employees). Don't forget that a 10% wage cut is pre-tax and that helps the Company by the full amount; but the effect on employees and pensioners would be less because of income tax. If we're brutally honest with ourselves, it's the very least that we should do............because the alternative will undoubtedly be far worse.

No, it's not your fault. You and the rest of the employees of Ford/GM?Chrysler started the industry and grew with it and adapted as best you could. Meanwhile, free trade and globalization were taking hold because Governments believed that if you could buy something cheaper somewhere, then that's great! They chose to overlook the fact that those other countries had wage levels and fringe benefits and working conditions that bore no resemblance to our idea of an appropriate environment. And now we're in a position - the whole continent - where RETAIL stores are the backbone of the economy and everything is dependent upon people buying things for less and less while running up their debt levels to intolerable and unrealistic heights. And now the economy has reached the point of reckoning where something needs to change. All of the Big 3 need financial assistance in a big way......but so far all I've heard is Government officials and talking heads arguing about whether aid is appropriate.....and, if so, with what strings attached; or is bankruptcy the better course to take. But I would like to see the UAW and CAW out in front of this......agreeing to take appropriate wage and benefit cuts that would bring all-inclusive hourly wage costs for the Big 3 to a level 10% below the average renumeration received by Honda/Toyota/Nissan in North America. Obviously, the salaried work force and mgmt will do likewise. Yes, the wage cuts will hurt.....but remember that the cuts are pre-tax and the after-tax impact will be less. This will take away the single biggest objection to financial aid.....and will show the world that we are serious......and will set an example for the rest of the country. Beyond that, there are all sorts of things that can be done to improve product availability.....and to convince Governments to find ways to limit imports such as those little tool boxes that from India and China and Korea that will be heading this way very soon......and to convince the public that the imports are better only because people PERCEIVE that they are better. The auto companies have always run short on proper PR and that needs to change. If we can send a man to the moon.....we ought to be able to re-invent the North American auto industry. We cannot let it fail. If it takes sacrifice, fine. As a retiree, I'm certainly willing to contribute to the cause. But we need to get past the rhetoric and the habit of always waiting for someone else to do what we can do ourselves if we have the will.

I foresee the end of the Panther......and the closure of the Plant......with an announcment around the end of 2010 that it will close in September 2011. Meanwhile, in the intervening time, there may very well be a push from overseas companies looking to build small cars (i.e. VERY small and very fuel-efficient) in North America. An available assembly plant with a trained and capable workforce in tyhe heart of the automotive belt would be very attractive to a foreign purchaser.....IF they could ensure that labour costs and conversion costs could be competitive. And that's why I'd like to the see the workforce become very proactive in "advertising" their availability at a competitive cost. Unfortunately, the days of losing your job and finding another one at or near the same wage are over. These auto jobs are terrific - even at a much lower rate of pay. Workers should do some very deep soul-searching.

I agree it's radical. But something needs to happen.....because the Plant is inevitably doomed. I don't think it can last until 2011. The products are ancient; they are sold ONLY to fleets and, as you know, Ford is trying to minimize fleet sales because there is no profit in fleet sales; and even the fleet buyers are making different choices now. If the employees want to work - and for a very decent wage (but not $30+/hour) - they need to step up and make an offer that is so attractive, the Government will come onside and the Company will have to think about its options. Admittedly, there is no product looking for a home right now.....but if the Company was presented with an alternative that would let them build something at a greatly reduced cost, they might have to consider it. The Big Three are fighting for their very survival right now.....Ford has even mortgaged its assets to buy more time. So it seems to me that anything that brings IN cash - as opposed to costing cash - might have a chance. But if I were an employee right now, I'd be saving every dime I could lay my hands on. The contraction in manufacturing is going to make jobs very hard to find when there are so many more people looking for them.

Another one in denial.......... Another one who just doesn't get it......... $25/hour is a long way from $0.40/hour...........but perhaps your attitude deserves only $0.40/hour.

With GM announcing a sudden and unexpected closure of their Truck Plant in Oshawa; and with no let-up in the high Canadian dollar and high energy prices........it's time for STAP to take the lead and offer the Company something that can be leveraged into a new product. The end of STAP is undoubtedly near......just look at this article which was in Thursday's paper: The market for Ford Motor Co.' s Canadian-built Lincoln Town Car has collapsed during the past month, heightening concern about the future of the Ontario factory that makes the vehicle. Ford meets with U. S. union leaders and plant managers in Detroit today to discuss the continent's rapidly changing sales environment. Sales figures show Ford sold 764 Town Cars in the United States in May, a drastic decline from the 4,508 the automaker sold during the same month in 2007. The company sold 6,176 of them during the first five months of the year, less than one-third the number it sold during the same period last year. Political leaders in such cities as New York are darkening the future of Ford's big cars. The municipality recently mandated new fuel-economy regulations of 25 miles per gallon for its taxi and black-car services that Ford's current Town Car and Crown Victoria models cannot meet. Historically, the Town Car has been one of the top choices for chauffeur-driven cars while the Crown Victoria has been a mainstay of New York's yellow cab fleet. Now, operators are steering toward other models. "We have already begun moving our cars from Lincoln Town Cars to hybrid vehicles," said John Acierno, whose family owns Brooklyn, N. Y.-based Executive Transportation Group, one of the largest ground transportation companies in North America with a fleet of 1,800 vehicles. In the two months since the regulations were passed, 90 Executive vehicles have converted, he said. "We anticipate that change to accelerate," Mr. Acierno said. "[Our] drivers are both doing the right thing in terms of the environment and coping with gas prices." Executive and investment banking firm Lehman Brothers has set up a lending company called Green Car Funding Corp. to provide drivers switching to hybrids with low-interest loans. Ford builds the Town Car, the Crown Victoria as well as the Mercury Grand Marquis at its assembly plant in St. Thomas, Ont. Operating on one shift instead of the usual two or three, the factory is one of eight of Ford's factories in North America running below full capacity, according to estimates by Global Insight Inc., a research firm based in Lexington, Mass. U.S. sales of the Grand Marquis dropped by half in May, to 3,087 from 6,371 in May, 2007. U. S. sales of the Crown Victoria, while down 23% this year over last year, have not fallen as quickly as those of the other two sedans. Police forces continue to buy the vehicles despite rising gas prices. "I'm sure if fuel prices continue to rise, then that's something we're probably going to have to take a look at," said Sgt. Keith Wilson of the Michigan State Police, which runs about 550 Ford Interceptor Crown Victorias in its fleet of 600 vehicles. "But for now what dictates how we purchase vehicles is whatever vehicle is best suited for the job our troopers need to do." Sgt. Wilson said the Fords are lauded for their size and performance. Their maximum speed is about 210 km/h. Ford executives said in December that sales of its largest sedans would slide this year as the cars become primarily fleet vehicles and not bought by retail sales customers. But they were side-swipped by a rise in gasoline prices above US$4 a gallon that threatens sales of their bread-and-butter F-Series pickup trucks and SUVs. Remember.....the Feds don't believe in aid to the auto industry. And the Provincial Government, although onside to a point, needs help from all parties (including the Feds). As I see it, the choice is to do nothing (and the Plant will close FOR SURE); or take dramatic action and see if it brings a response (an aggressive approach might reduce the risk of closure to 50%)???? The Ford Motor Company is in BIG trouble from all sides....and those that ignore that reality will see its death knell very soon. I think that the employees at St. Thomas should tell their Union to tell the Company that they will forego a minimum of $5/hour for the next five years in return for a new product that will extend the Plant's life for at least five years. The $5/hour would amount to $120 million over five years; and such an initiative could likely be leveraged into at least a matching $120 million from the provincial Government; and even $120 Million from the Feds. If one realizes that $5 per hour is $3 after taxes; and if one believes (as I do) that a $30/hour job in the auto industry is no longer competitive and that a $20-25/hour job would be far better than no job at all..........then it becomes a no-brainer. I'd forget the "No Concessions" rhetoric.....such a position fails to acknowledge today's realities. Buzz has done wonders for his union members.....but he needs to look forward instead of backward and realize that he can't win a fight with the Companies, the Government, the Investment Bankers; and the world economy. Don't you think that an after-tax giveback of $3/hour would be a small price to pay for a 5 years (at least) of employment @ $25/hour???