Global C-car discussion

[LSFan00]

Good points all around...

 

http://www.thecarconnection.com/Vehicle_Re...11801.html?pg=1

 

All the exotic carmakers do it - Ferrari, Bentley, and Lamborghini, for example. Executive car producers like Mercedes, BMW, and Audi do it, too. And so do the manufacturers of humdrum cars like Toyota , VW, Nissan, and Chrysler. Even Alfa Romeo thinks it can do it and is beavering away behind the scenes to make it happen. But GM and Ford? They just can't seem to be able to get it right, which means they're needlessly wasting millions of development dollars each year.

 

I'm talking, of course, about building global cars. How is it that VW can build the Golf and Passat and Toyota is able to produce the Yaris and Corolla and both companies can sell identical all over the world without too much difficulty, while GM and Ford have never been able to find a single car to keep Asian, European, and American customers happy?

 

Ford's best attempt, the Focus, got off to a great start in America and looked like becoming the company's first, global, mainstream success, but in transferring production to Mexico it seems much of the quality control got lost in translation and the Euro-chic Focus' reputation ended up in the Euro-trash. For the all-new 2008 model, Ford's designers have grabbed their security blankies and designed a car reminiscent of the good-ol' Escort in terms of design and layout so a bland sedan and coupe replace the bold sedan and hatchback models. An opportunity is missed and status quo is restored.

 

It's where the company is going, obviously, and though the article is dedicated to pre-viewing really the Saturn Astra, but rather than debate the exact same subject, what about this trend, which really is repulsive to the American market in my opinion (repulsive being sub-2 liter turbochaged engines);

Opel, like most European carmakers, is shifting towards smaller, turbocharged engines in a bid to lower emissions and fuel consumption without affecting performance, so the company's excellent 180-hp, 1.6-liter turbo is likely to be the pick of the revised European Astra range, which goes on sale in February.

[g48150]

You have t o hand it to Bob Lutz, he's got a winning idea in making a global product, not so much a "world car" like the Taurus was, but at least the engineering underneath.

 

The problem is in execution, as they say "the best laid plans...", and in this case it is no different, there are still too many "mouths to feed" when it comes to sharing these globally engineered vehicles in terms of what "brand" to sell them under.

 

Even Carlos Ghosn, as brilliant as he may be, has the same problem, and Renault doesn't even exist here!!!

 

But it is still easier than back in the day when building a new car line was a crapshoot at best. These days there is information on anyone that's EVER bought a car, their lives carefully dissected, and then product plans centered around that information, but even THAT is still not a guaranteed recipe for a hit.

 

Even now I still remember what Henry Ford said about his customers, "If I had asked my customers what they wanted, they would have said a faster horse". I've thought about that a lot, you track any number of groups of people, even people that can afford a $600+/month car payment, and you STILL can drop the ball when it comes to satisfying what they want.

 

Lexus was a warmed over Toyota until the past 10 years or so, you said Lexus 15 years ago and everyone said who? Even Acura and Infinity, being luxury offshoots of respected Japanese brands Honda and NIssan, don't share the sales success of Lexus, not even close. In '99 Lexus beat BMW for the first time in sales and has kept that lead ever since.

 

So what it is about Lexus that makes it so interesting? 8 years of luxury market dominance, but a brand that is barely 20 years old. It took the Toyota brand WELL over 30 years to get where they are today, and even now, the "speed" at which they operate are causing the quality problems that they are infamous for NOT having.

 

Theres a lot to be said about how successful global product integration and management CAN be, its very difficult to quantify success in terms of engineered product, like my tagline says, It's the Customer, Stupid.

[Surgen]

Good points all around...

 

http://www.thecarconnection.com/Vehicle_Re...11801.html?pg=1

 

 

It's where the company is going, obviously, and though the article is dedicated to pre-viewing really the Saturn Astra, but rather than debate the exact same subject, what about this trend, which really is repulsive to the American market in my opinion (repulsive being sub-2 liter turbochaged engines);

 

How many Golf's and Passat's does VW sell in the US? First time in a long time that I've heard anyone refer to them as a volume player over here..... Does Toyota really do all that well in Europe?

[RichardJensen]

The answer is not much and not as well as you'd think.

[RichardJensen]

"If I had asked my customers what they wanted, they would have said a faster horse".

Well you don't ask.... You show them what you're considering and ask them if they want it.

[2005Explorer]

You have t o hand it to Bob Lutz, he's got a winning idea in making a global product, not so much a "world car" like the Taurus was, but at least the engineering underneath.

 

I thought the Taurus was pretty much a North American only product.

[Hugh]

I thought the Taurus was pretty much a North American only product.

They tried in Japan and the numbers didn't break over 2000 units I believe. They already had their Camrys and Cressidas which were equal at the time in quality, fit and finish etc. I couldn't tell you how much Ford was asking for them over there but I don't think it really wasn't that much.

[Blueblood]

It's funny to see people saying Ford should continue doing what has taken them into the gutter.

 

Ford could build the C1 here, therefore no exchange rate matters, that's just an excuse from the "it's not built here" crowd.

 

Maybe their tune will change when Ford goes under?

[NickF1011]

It's funny to see people saying Ford should continue doing what has taken them into the gutter.

 

Ford could build the C1 here, therefore no exchange rate matters, that's just an excuse from the "it's not built here" crowd.

 

Maybe their tune will change when Ford goes under?

 

 

C1 is water under the bridge at this point and there's no point in debating it any further. It's too late to convert Wayne Assembly to build C1 unless you want the same people complaining that Ford is still building C1 cars for the US when Europe has C2 for X amount of years. Ford WILL build C2 here when it comes along in another couple of years. They screwed the pooch on C1 for the US. Let's just all hope they get it right with the next generation.

[Blueblood]

C1 is water under the bridge at this point and there's no point in debating it any further. It's too late to convert Wayne Assembly to build C1 unless you want the same people complaining that Ford is still building C1 cars for the US when Europe has C2 for X amount of years. Ford WILL build C2 here when it comes along in another couple of years. They screwed the pooch on C1 for the US. Let's just all hope they get it right with the next generation.

 

 

Yea, the whole thing is that it actually would have been cheaper for Ford to bring C1 here in 2004-05 over the millions they spent on the 08 Focus re-design, how disgusting is that? I don't think that article was ever posted here, it nearly started a riot on the Focus boards. And who loses? The consumer, I want a new car this year, yet I'm told I have to wait until well into the next decade for the C2 to come here along with the return of the hatch. And I still haven't seen any evidence that the C2 is really coming here, just rumors and speculation, when Ford announces the 2010-2011 Focus will be the same car Europe gets I'll believe it, until then I don't buy it.

Edited January 29, 2007 by Blueblood

[NickF1011]

And I still haven't seen any evidence that the C2 is really coming here, just rumors and speculation, when Ford announces the 2010-2011 Focus will be the same car Europe gets I'll believe it, until then I don't buy it.

 

I do believe Mark Fields said something concrete about it some time ago. I can't be certain though. Memory is a little foggy this early in the morning. :boring:

[Blueblood]

I do believe Mark Fields said something concrete about it some time ago. I can't be certain though. Memory is a little foggy this early in the morning. :boring:

 

I hope so, and the return of the hatch is mandatory, the hatch market is exploding right now, and all the people moving away from SUV's which are giant hatchbacks anyway want the utility of a hatch.

 

I find it scary how Ford dropped the hatches at a time they are exploding, it's like their product planners are a decade behind the times, "people don't want hatches!".. Oh really? Just about every B-C car I can think of offers a hatch.

[LSFan00]

The answer is not much and not as well as you'd think.

 

So you think 1.6 liter turbocharged engines are a good thing which would fly well in the next Focus?

[NickF1011]

So you think 1.6 liter turbocharged engines are a good thing which would fly well in the next Focus?

 

 

If a 1.6 turbo with direction injection could exceed the 2.0 and 2.3 in fuel economy while offering competive power numbers, I don't think it would be an issue at all. In fact, it may actually be a selling point.

[igor]

If a 1.6 turbo with direction injection could exceed the 2.0 and 2.3 in fuel economy while offering competive power numbers, I don't think it would be an issue at all. In fact, it may actually be a selling point.

 

and they will . The Ford plan is to offer an NA engine like 2.0l as base, but then offer one optional engine that will make no more power, but will be more fuel efficient.

 

I predict that with the new focus on FE among compacts, the base engine HP will stabilize between 130 and 150, and Ford will not only keep the 2.0l I4 competitive with 40mpg, but also add the GTDI 1.6l (or smaller) engine making 130hp, but 50mpg ..

 

Igor