Skilled Trades Seniority

[Sherlock]

Who stays up at night making this stupid shit up?

I made this "stupid shit up" in the morning,look at what time it was posted.

[Sherlock]

I dont know Sherlock. #'s could change but exit polling shows what's usually called a landslide (60-40).

Yeah but I was expecting the #'s to be around 85-15.

[VDTRANSMAN]

First off , that 20 comp./7 trade would have the right to go to production. Usually they have a choice.

 

Not everyone that went through the program can count on going back to production. Dont assume that because you can, everyone can. What of the people that hired in production at one plant and acquired trades seniority at another plant? Quite possibly there is no job waiting for them at their original plant where they hold production seniority. Edison, Atlanta, and Norfolk transferee's come to mind, just to name a few.

[VDTRANSMAN]

Here's another wonderfull scenario which is actually alot closer to happening than many people may believe.

 

Emp hires into Sterling Axle on production. Emp takes apprentiship at VanDyke through the sister plant transfer agreement. Transfer agreement is eliminated. Emp gets laid off trades at VanDyke and must return to production at Sterling Axle not Van Dyke. Emp then gets laid off production at Sterling and now is on the street. All the while this employee has lower seniority people working production at Van Dyke, lower trade AND company seniority people working his trade at Sterling, and he is sitting on the street. Now mind you the two plants shared a combined apprentiship list because of the transfer agreement. When you got called for the apprentiship you didn't have a choice as to which plant you wanted to serve at.

 

Now you trying to tell me that is the right way to do it? Anyone care to tell me this is the way it should be?

Edited March 16, 2007 by VDTRANSMAN

[Simpleman]

1. I have been around for two test cycles now. The first was the old criteria for entry and the second was the seniority based criteria. I don't know of any hand picking, just the occasional outside influence for sex, race, etc.

 

2. If it is your experience then I will take it that you are a Journeyman or Supervisor. If you are a Journeyman then the lack of drive and motivation is likely resting on your shoulders. Most of the apprentices that I have associated with follow the examples given to them. If you are a supervisor, again, it is you job to motivate these people and if they can't hack it, eliminate them from the program.

 

3. Maybe there wasn't any accountability at NAP. When they were open that is. The idea of $10,000/minute is plenty of accountability for us. Again, if the person isn't cutting it, then the Journeyman/supervisor needs to motivate or remove the individual.

 

4. I will also take it that you served an apprenticeship on the outside. The ownership of the apprenticeship program lies as much or more so with the Journeymen than anyone else. That is the entire concept of the Journeyman/Apprentice relationship. Maybe you are proud. Maybe you are skilled. But I'll bet you aren't much of a teach and a great armchair quarterback.

 

What do I know. LAP is still here though isn't it??

 

Sorry but you are wrong on some things..

 

1. A grown man/woman should not need a supervisor to bird dog them all day if they have a job classification then they should know what to do.

 

2. The Apprentice program does not require you to get good evaluatuions from the Journeymen you are assigned too or to pass your exams. We at NAP have individuals that met this criteria and were still passed through the program even after bad evals and test failures. Reps from Dearborn came and interviewed many of us and said individual still got passed through.

 

3. Why give a person who is ready to retire an Apprenticesgip? What a waste of money and time.

 

4. An obligatory time frame for employment after training should be enforced.

 

5. Accountability! Since when has anyone been held accountable for anything?

 

6. Quit teaching people with no background yet how to run before they can walk. It is impossible to teach someone how to troubleshoot all aspects of automated lines in 4 years.

 

God forbid Duke, that a grown person be held accountable for anything within the Ford system! I love the fact that the jerk you quoted rubbed it in that LAP is still around and that NAP is closing. Just shows ya what a person is made of.

[Simpleman]

1. I have been around for two test cycles now. The first was the old criteria for entry and the second was the seniority based criteria. I don't know of any hand picking, just the occasional outside influence for sex, race, etc.

 

2. If it is your experience then I will take it that you are a Journeyman or Supervisor. If you are a Journeyman then the lack of drive and motivation is likely resting on your shoulders. Most of the apprentices that I have associated with follow the examples given to them. If you are a supervisor, again, it is you job to motivate these people and if they can't hack it, eliminate them from the program.

 

3. Maybe there wasn't any accountability at NAP. When they were open that is. The idea of $10,000/minute is plenty of accountability for us. Again, if the person isn't cutting it, then the Journeyman/supervisor needs to motivate or remove the individual.

 

4. I will also take it that you served an apprenticeship on the outside. The ownership of the apprenticeship program lies as much or more so with the Journeymen than anyone else. That is the entire concept of the Journeyman/Apprentice relationship. Maybe you are proud. Maybe you are skilled. But I'll bet you aren't much of a teach and a great armchair quarterback.

 

What do I know. LAP is still here though isn't it??

 

 

Lets break this down point by point, shall we......

 

1. If a company is looking for the best and brightest, why would they go by seniority alone? Why would you train someone, have them top out and then have them retire?? Doesn't make sense.

 

2. Lack of motivation? First off, why should I have to motivate the apprentice? It should be motivation enough that the person is learning a trade. I guess just doing your job isn't motivation enough for you?

I will show the apprentice anything they want to know, but if they are unmotivated, I'm not going to drag that person around by the hand and teach them anything. I am a journeyman, not a parent.

 

3. Accountability?? We tried to get people removed from the apprenticeship but, in the wisdom of the apprenticeship committe from Mich., they were passed on through. I'm just a journeyman, not a miracle worker.

 

4. You're right about the concept. But remember, it takes two to tango. The apprentice MUST be willing to learn, not just happy to be off the line.

 

 

And in closing, you truely showed you're a classless individual with that fine remark about LAP and NAP at the end. I would hope you are a better tradesman than a human being.

[VDTRANSMAN]

Lets break this down point by point, shall we......

 

1. If a company is looking for the best and brightest, why would they go by seniority alone? Why would you train someone, have them top out and then have them retire?? Doesn't make sense.

 

2. Lack of motivation? First off, why should I have to motivate the apprentice? It should be motivation enough that the person is learning a trade. I guess just doing your job isn't motivation enough for you?

I will show the apprentice anything they want to know, but if they are unmotivated, I'm not going to drag that person around by the hand and teach them anything. I am a journeyman, not a parent.

 

3. Accountability?? We tried to get people removed from the apprenticeship but, in the wisdom of the apprenticeship committe from Mich., they were passed on through. I'm just a journeyman, not a miracle worker.

 

4. You're right about the concept. But remember, it takes two to tango. The apprentice MUST be willing to learn, not just happy to be off the line.

And in closing, you truely showed you're a classless individual with that fine remark about LAP and NAP at the end. I would hope you are a better tradesman than a human being.

 

 

#1. They dont go by seniority alone.

 

#2. Apprentice motivation a problem? Around here a good deal of the time it was the other way around. I say "was" because we dont have any apprentices left. I couldn't even begin to count the times I had to go out on jobs alone and figured the crap out myself. Why? Because the 30yr deadbeat was too busy playing cards or snoozing away. Or how many times I had a supervisor ignore and walk right by the 30 wonderkind to get an apprentice because they had a hot job down and wanted it up and running yesterday.

 

#3. I agree with you 100%.

[Xerxes12]

I chose not to vote. There is no way in hell that the current rules will ever be changed.

 

Not voting is the way we get presidents elected by 30% of the people. Besides that I'm in mourning for Starbuck!

[mule]

Because the 30yr deadbeat was too busy playing cards or snoozing away. Or how many times I had a supervisor ignore and walk right by the 30 wonderkind to get an apprentice because they had a hot job down and wanted it up and running yesterday.

 

Ouch!!!!

[Xerxes12]

Lets see... an apprentice comes into a trade after being on the line for X amount of years..... and a journeyperson teaches the apprentice how to do the job. The journeyperson passes on X number years of experience.... helping the apprentice become a journeyperson..... then the apprentice passes the journeyperson in seniority..... something wrong with this picture ......my guess is the apprentice may not get taught much... who knows the apprentice may even wash out of program based on journeyperson evaluation.

 

It is almost impossible to wash out of our watered down apprenticeship program.

[Xerxes12]

I am strongly against the Ford Apprenticeship Program entirely. It's a hand picked few who only want to get off the assembly line, make more money and do absolutely nothing.

It's been my experience that relatively few apprentices have the drive and motivation to do thier job effectively day in and day out. To them they've won the lottery and since there's no accountablity in the trades, it's a perfect classification to be in. If the common assembly line worker knew the truth then the :fan:

I see the Ford Apprenticeship Program as the end to the classification of skilled tradesperson.

 

BTW - I think they should leave the seniority the way it is.

 

The program is a shambles but there are still good journeymen that make it through. The problem is definitely no accountability and people skating through because of connections. Somebody has to do the work so a certain pctg. will learn and have had a good work ethic.

[Xerxes12]

1. I have been around for two test cycles now. The first was the old criteria for entry and the second was the seniority based criteria. I don't know of any hand picking, just the occasional outside influence for sex, race, etc.

 

2. If it is your experience then I will take it that you are a Journeyman or Supervisor. If you are a Journeyman then the lack of drive and motivation is likely resting on your shoulders. Most of the apprentices that I have associated with follow the examples given to them. If you are a supervisor, again, it is you job to motivate these people and if they can't hack it, eliminate them from the program.

 

3. Maybe there wasn't any accountability at NAP. When they were open that is. The idea of $10,000/minute is plenty of accountability for us. Again, if the person isn't cutting it, then the Journeyman/supervisor needs to motivate or remove the individual.

 

4. I will also take it that you served an apprenticeship on the outside. The ownership of the apprenticeship program lies as much or more so with the Journeymen than anyone else. That is the entire concept of the Journeyman/Apprentice relationship. Maybe you are proud. Maybe you are skilled. But I'll bet you aren't much of a teach and a great armchair quarterback.

 

What do I know. LAP is still here though isn't it??

 

At CAP there is no accountability, the only apprentice since 1989 to be sent back to the line was because of absenteeism.

[Xerxes12]

Here's another wonderfull scenario which is actually alot closer to happening than many people may believe.

 

Emp hires into Sterling Axle on production. Emp takes apprentiship at VanDyke through the sister plant transfer agreement. Transfer agreement is eliminated. Emp gets laid off trades at VanDyke and must return to production at Sterling Axle not Van Dyke. Emp then gets laid off production at Sterling and now is on the street. All the while this employee has lower seniority people working production at Van Dyke, lower trade AND company seniority people working his trade at Sterling, and he is sitting on the street. Now mind you the two plants shared a combined apprentiship list because of the transfer agreement. When you got called for the apprentiship you didn't have a choice as to which plant you wanted to serve at.

 

Now you trying to tell me that is the right way to do it? Anyone care to tell me this is the way it should be?

 

What a mess!!!!

[Xerxes12]

I agree with plant and engineering seniority within the plant. I have 04/17/1969 plant and 11/20/1989 engineering seniority at CAP. I knew when I became an apprentice that this would be the way my seniority works. We had many new hires in both 1979 and 1985 from the street as tradespeople. They had preference in vacation and bumping although I had anywhere from 10 to 16 years more plant seniority than they did.

 

The problem with seniority today is because of plant closings. Should a 20 year tradesperson from Norfolk carry his Engineering seniority to Chicago? Should a Chicago journeyman with 6 years of Engineering seniority be displaced? The seniority date of 10/29/1984 was negotiated years ago as a compromise when displaced tradespersons came to our plant in the 80's. Right now we have a controversy with our welders not wanting a welder from Chicago Stamping to come to CAP for fear that they could be displaced in the future. It's dog eat dog, every man for himself. every plant for itself.

Edited March 18, 2007 by Xerxes12

[firedude26]

I am strongly against the Ford Apprenticeship Program entirely. It's a hand picked few who only want to get off the assembly line, make more money and do absolutely nothing.

It's been my experience that relatively few apprentices have the drive and motivation to do thier job effectively day in and day out. To them they've won the lottery and since there's no accountablity in the trades, it's a perfect classification to be in. If the common assembly line worker knew the truth then the :fan:

I see the Ford Apprenticeship Program as the end to the classification of skilled tradesperson.

 

BTW - I think they should leave the seniority the way it is.[/quot

 

 

WAFIYA

 

sometimes i really wonder ? :boring:

Edited March 18, 2007 by firedude26

[MTP_UAW]

The best tradesmen that I've dealt with (electricians, welders, and toolmakers) came from the outside. Seems like the app's from the line think the trades are their ticket to a free ride. Just my perspective at MTP. So, with the logic of Ford, we'll all go with Ford senority, after decades of the way things are today. We are running out of nails for this coffin.

[Shackle]

The best tradesmen that I've dealt with (electricians, welders, and toolmakers) came from the outside. Seems like the app's from the line think the trades are their ticket to a free ride. Just my perspective at MTP. So, with the logic of Ford, we'll all go with Ford seniority, after decades of the way things are today. We are running out of nails for this coffin.

Some of the laziest tradesmen I've worked with came from the outside also some of the most dimwitted.They get into Ford's and think they have made it to heaven.So it goes without saying there are people on both sides of this debate that are lazy.Sounds like you people that don't have the seniority have alot to lose, are you afraid to go back to you're tools on the outside?Since your so talented you should have no problems.

[BLIND_SQUIRREL]

:titanic:

The best tradesmen that I've dealt with (electricians, welders, and toolmakers) came from the outside. Seems like the app's from the line think the trades are their ticket to a free ride. Just my perspective at MTP. So, with the logic of Ford, we'll all go with Ford senority, after decades of the way things are today. We are running out of nails for this coffin.

Never happen! Even though it would benefit me greatly, I would never vote for it. Don't want anybody passing me by later........IF we ever have apprentices again?

 

Hearing 'from outside better', 'apprentices lazy', 'outside lazy', etc: it all comes down to one thing.............. the individuals' work ethic, bottom line!!! I've had excellent apprentices, but these were self motivated, eager to learn individuals that turned into great journeymen because that card they earned meant something to them! It was not a ticket to the 'gravy train', they were PROUD to be a tradesman/woman!! Unfortunately, not everyone is like that

 

Don't get me wrong, there are definately probs with our current system.

1. We need to go back to highest score (not passing grade & then seniority)

2. It needs to be TOUGHER! (easier than my college prep studies)

3. More accountability (JAC thinks EVERYBODY should pass......WRONG!)

 

Don't think it will ever change, but also don't know how many more apprentices we will have either!? Two years from now, if we don't get this thing turned around, :titanic: ford time vs skilled time & apprentices won't even matter!

[my3sons]

:titanic:

Never happen! Even though it would benefit me greatly, I would never vote for it. Don't want anybody passing me by later........IF we ever have apprentices again?

 

Hearing 'from outside better', 'apprentices lazy', 'outside lazy', etc: it all comes down to one thing.............. the individuals' work ethic, bottom line!!! I've had excellent apprentices, but these were self motivated, eager to learn individuals that turned into great journeymen because that card they earned meant something to them! It was not a ticket to the 'gravy train', they were PROUD to be a tradesman/woman!! Unfortunately, not everyone is like that

 

Don't get me wrong, there are definately probs with our current system.

1. We need to go back to highest score (not passing grade & then seniority)

2. It needs to be TOUGHER! (easier than my college prep studies)

3. More accountability (JAC thinks EVERYBODY should pass......WRONG!)

 

Don't think it will ever change, but also don't know how many more apprentices we will have either!? Two years from now, if we don't get this thing turned around, :titanic: ford time vs skilled time & apprentices won't even matter!

 

I agree with Blind Squirrel. We do need to go back to the old procedure of testing for apprenticeship candidates. The first time I tested, in 1993, I scored in the 98th percentile of over 800 test takers and still did not make the cut. When I retested for the next batch of apprentices I scored in the 99th percentile and made the list. When I started my apprenticeship, I found myself sitting in a room with an impressive group of people: some college graduates, a former airforce pilot, a former high school math teacher, a former drafting teacher. And yes this group did include men, women, African American, and caucasions. I was genuinely impressed with most all in the apprenticeship and most all were motivated people who went on to be good journeymen. I can not say that about the majority of the people I see in the apprenticeship now. We have one apprentice in particular who should be sent back to the line. Every journeyman he has worked with has given him a less than favorable evaluation. He even failed his final evaluation. But nothing is going to happen because there is no accountability. The apprenticeship has been turned into an entitlement program. All you need is an average score and a lot of seniority. This leads to average apprentices and average journeymen, but you can thank the UAW and Greg Cotton for this, not FoMoCo. Mr. Cotton decided that it did not take a brain surgeon to be in skilled trades, therefore, shortly after his international appointment our testing procedure was changed.

[whereswaldo]

Correct me if I am wrong, but you have to have the score to pass. Seniority is only used for placement order, right?

 

BTW: I do not agree with it the way it is now. When I took the test back in '95, score was everything. Seniority was not even looked at.

 

Score was the way when I tested in '93. However I hear that they take a list of all who passed, and then sen. is used to call people up. So a 80% score with more sen. would go b-4 a 100% lower sen. I recall a class action threat yrs ago , might have been out of an Ohio plant that challenged the old way. This new way may be how they remedied the situation. Anyone from Ohio have better info on this issue ?

[Shackle]

Why is it showing 39 total votes but only 37 tallied?anybody know.

[NAPtraveler]

Correct me if I am wrong, but you have to have the score to pass. Seniority is only used for placement order, right?

 

BTW: I do not agree with it the way it is now. When I took the test back in '95, score was everything. Seniority was not even looked at.

 

 

 

You don't have to take my word for it, ask around at your plant...discretely. Score and seniority mean nothing. They may preach it everyday, but off-the-record it means nothing when the final decisions are made.

[end of time]

It is almost impossible to wash out of our watered down apprenticeship program.

What so many of you who comment on this subject do not seem to understand is that Ford has been sued in court many times for not being fair in their process of chosing apprentices. So they have been paying the piper a long time by going by goverment guidelines. Yes folks the good ol US of A. Tellling ford who to promote and how. So quit blaming ford and the union they have no say. Call your congressman or president.

[unionj]

What so many of you who comment on this subject do not seem to understand is that Ford has been sued in court many times for not being fair in their process of chosing apprentices. So they have been paying the piper a long time by going by goverment guidelines. Yes folks the good ol US of A. Tellling ford who to promote and how. So quit blaming ford and the union they have no say. Call your congressman or president.

 

If you are a white male I suggest you leave this subject alone!

[Xerxes12]

Correct me if I am wrong, but you have to have the score to pass. Seniority is only used for placement order, right?

 

BTW: I do not agree with it the way it is now. When I took the test back in '95, score was everything. Seniority was not even looked at.

 

If you didn't get a perfect score on the test you shouldn't have been considered. It was the easiest test imaginable with the only parts with any degree of difficulty being the direction following circle filling aptitude portions. I took the test in 1989 after blowing off the test in the early 70's. The test then was more difficult and your trade was determined by your test scores.