2007 Sales: Lincoln Up 8.1% Cadillac Down 8.1%

[Hemiman]

Why don't you price Pontiac & Buick vehicles of Lincoln's size before you say stuff like this?

 

The MKZ's base price is just about even with the CTS. MKX? There's no Buick or Pontiac CUV that starts off in the mid $30s.

 

And Caddy sells a lot of entry level CTSes, so don't let's pretend that Lincoln's the only brand sullying their reputation with $30k cars.

 

 

Cm-on Rich, You and I have discussed this enough. You know I'm not coming at this from a pricing angle, (although I think Lincoln pricing is more in line with Buick than Caddy).

 

I'm looking at vehicle type, drivetrain.... I would think Lincolns conquests would come from like vehicles: V-6 powered FWD (yes I know the Lincoln offers AWD) sedans with a more Asian look and feel.

 

I AM very happy to see success for Lincoln, I just don't think it's coming at Caddy's expense.

[RichardJensen]

Cm-on Rich, You and I have discussed this enough. You know I'm not coming at this from a pricing angle, (although I think Lincoln pricing is more in line with Buick than Caddy).

 

I'm looking at vehicle type, drivetrain.... I would think Lincolns conquests would come from like vehicles: V-6 powered FWD (yes I know the Lincoln offers AWD) sedans with a more Asian look and feel.

 

I AM very happy to see success for Lincoln, I just don't think it's coming at Caddy's expense.

From a philosophical approach, Lincolns today aren't all that different from Lincolns past. Lincoln has never been about off-the-wall styling, or performance (excepting the Marks VII & VIII, and the LS). Absent those three models, and Lincoln has always been quiet luxury.

 

And in terms of pricing, Lincoln covers pretty much the same price range as Caddy (excepting the most expensive Escalades & the 'it's still for sale?' XLR). If you're going to talk aggregate average transaction price, I think the numbers are not far off either.

 

Where conquest sales are coming from? Probably from FWD, as the bulk of all cars sold today are FWD.

 

But I wouldn't readily assume that a lot of RWD Bimmers and Benzes are being traded in on Cadillacs.

Edited April 4, 2007 by RichardJensen

[LincolnFan]

I don't see why Lincoln isn't competing with Caddy. Caddy has nothing on Lincoln except RWD.

[suv_guy_19]

I don't see why Lincoln isn't competing with Caddy. Caddy has nothing on Lincoln except RWD.

 

 

i think we are really beginning to see lincoln return to a competitiveness

Edited April 4, 2007 by suv_guy_19

[PolarBear]

Didn't we hit this in another thread? Caddy's biggest seller isn't the CTS (third actually)- it's the Escalade. At any rate, I'm happy to see Lincoln up. I wish them- and Cadilllac- well. Just Rootin' for the home teams here. :shades:

[grbeck]

From a philosophical approach, Lincolns today aren't all that different from Lincolns past.

 

If the "Lincoln of the past" is the 1977 Versailles, then I would agree. But some of us were hoping that Lincoln would aim higher...much higher. Think 1961 Continental...1968 Continental Mark III...or even the 1952-55 "road race" cars.

 

As for Cadillac, I see one problem.

 

It has three vehicles that are keeping the franchise in business - the CTS, the Escalade and the DTS.

 

They are linked by the styling theme - Cadillac has done a good job here - and the nameplate, but not much else.

 

The CTS is built on a unique platform and is designed to offer a "European" (i.e., German) combination of ride and handling.

 

The Escalade family consists of reworked Chevy trucks with a larger engine, but their build quality really isn't any better than their Chevy cousins, and they offer an "American truck" driving experience.

 

The DTS shares a platform with Buick and offers an updated version of the American "land yacht" approach to luxury. It it appeals to an aging client base that buys Cadillacs because of what the division stood for in their youth.

 

Those three different vehicles could have been developed by three different divisions.

Edited April 5, 2007 by grbeck

[RichardJensen]

Think 1961 Continental...1968 Continental Mark III...or even the 1952-55 "road race" cars.

None of those cars were barn stormers, nor did any of them drive/handle better than competitors.

 

Even the road race cars-------

[range]

Caddy burned 5 Billion bux and only has one successful vehicle, the CTS.

 

That's why Caddy sucks.

 

 

Thats exactly my point.

 

GM has been pouring mega-buck into Cadillac and Lincoln has been ignored, and Lincoln is the one climbing in sales and Caddy falling?

 

What kind of return on investment did GM get when only 4200 sales separate Lincoln from Caddy?

[matthewq4b]

None of those cars were barn stormers, nor did any of them drive/handle better than competitors.

 

Even the road race cars-------

 

 

Your right on that they did not drive or handle any better than the competitors (should be competitor-Cadillac) But what they did do was ride better and offered some features caddy could only dream about. In that era it was all about ride quality everything else took a back seat to that. And infact the Conti of the era was a much more nimble car than the Caddy's of the time. (If any thing that weighs about 2.5 tons can be called nimble) And had a much better build quality.

 

The Conti Show car was step in the right direction for Lincoln for an addtion and a TC replacement. With the MKS and the MKZ a 2 door in the line up and a TC type car, You are covering alot of ground and not alienating the 40K a year buyers of the TC . I,m not even sure if Caddy has a single modle that sells that volume right now (any one know ?) and if they do it certainly is not at the profits the TC does.

 

Lincoln still needs a TC replacement, and not the MKS But some thing in addition to the MKS.

 

The addtion of the MKS and MKX is going to add a bunch of sales to the name plate.

These 2 vehicals should push Lincoln back ahead of Caddy.

 

The TC is still Lincolns Biggest seller this segment can not be ignored. No matter how much every one hates the damn thing. But a Vehical has to remain in the segment. It can not be replaced with the MKS. A different demographic all together. There are still those that put ride quality first. And usually those that do are not the ones actually driving the damn things but they are the ones buying them. Or there are customer considerations for owners that use them in livery service.

 

Lincoln will over take Caddy as long as they keep a TC type car in the line up.

And will have done that with out spending 5 billion.

 

 

Matthew

Edited April 5, 2007 by matthewq4b

[armadamaster]

Your right on that they did not drive or handle any better than the competitors (should be competitor-Cadillac) But what they did do was ride better and offered some features caddy could only dream about. In that era it was all about ride quality everything else took a back seat to that. And infact the Conti of the era was a much more nimble car than the Caddy's of the time. (If any thing that weighs about 2.5 tons can be called nimble) And had a much better build quality.

 

The Conti Show car was step in the right direction for Lincoln for an addtion and a TC replacement. With the MKS and the MKZ a 2 door in the line up and a TC type car, You are covering alot of ground and not alienating the 40K a year buyers of the TC . I,m not even sure if Caddy has a single modle that sells that volume right now (any one know ?) and if they do it certainly is not at the profits the TC does.

 

Lincoln still needs a TC replacement, and not the MKS But some thing in addition to the MKS.

 

The addtion of the MKS and MKX is going to add a bunch of sales to the name plate.

These 2 vehicals should push Lincoln back ahead of Caddy.

 

The TC is still Lincolns Biggest seller this segment can not be ignored. No matter how much every one hates the damn thing. But a Vehical has to remain in the segment. It can not be replaced with the MKS. A different demographic all together. There are still those that put ride quality first. And usually those that do are not the ones actually driving the damn things but they are the ones buying them. Or there are customer considerations for owners that use them in livery service.

 

Lincoln will over take Caddy as long as they keep a TC type car in the line up.

And will have done that with out spending 5 billion.

Matthew

 

Somebody gets it!

 

On the money with everything but the Conti show car being a TC replacement. What an updated Panther/TC should be perhaps, no replacement.

[igor]

Your right on that they did not drive or handle any better than the competitors (should be competitor-Cadillac) But what they did do was ride better and offered some features caddy could only dream about. In that era it was all about ride quality everything else took a back seat to that. And infact the Conti of the era was a much more nimble car than the Caddy's of the time. (If any thing that weighs about 2.5 tons can be called nimble) And had a much better build quality.

 

The Conti Show car was step in the right direction for Lincoln for an addtion and a TC replacement. With the MKS and the MKZ a 2 door in the line up and a TC type car, You are covering alot of ground and not alienating the 40K a year buyers of the TC . I,m not even sure if Caddy has a single modle that sells that volume right now (any one know ?) and if they do it certainly is not at the profits the TC does.

 

Lincoln still needs a TC replacement, and not the MKS But some thing in addition to the MKS.

 

The addtion of the MKS and MKX is going to add a bunch of sales to the name plate.

These 2 vehicals should push Lincoln back ahead of Caddy.

 

The TC is still Lincolns Biggest seller this segment can not be ignored. No matter how much every one hates the damn thing. But a Vehical has to remain in the segment. It can not be replaced with the MKS. A different demographic all together. There are still those that put ride quality first. And usually those that do are not the ones actually driving the damn things but they are the ones buying them. Or there are customer considerations for owners that use them in livery service.

 

Lincoln will over take Caddy as long as they keep a TC type car in the line up.

And will have done that with out spending 5 billion.

Matthew

If my sources are right, and all get approved that is exactly the direction Lincoln is going:

MKZ

MKS

MKR

possible reworked TC

and a Mustang coupe derivate

 

Then the MKX, the Flex cousin, Navi, and Mark LT.

 

Most of this will be FWD/AWD, but ford has been progressing in developing RWD versions of the D3 which would give them yet another option for RWD architecture for big cars - Mustang based Chassis can take care of upper-middle class - 5-series competitor.

 

Igor

[LincolnFan]

Is the MKR thing still hope?

 

What about the 2-door MKZ? rumors died on the 2 door CD3s.

[Automotive Paint]

As stated the TC is dated and IMO by at least a decade. The last TC my mom had was an 02 and I fail to see much of an evolution since. By chance the other day I noticed the TC Sig has a $7K rebate and when you subtract that from an invoice of $38,xxx one can buy a top of the line (FWIW) TC for $31K maybe less.

 

I drive 1K miles per week and trade cars yearly so I brought this deal up to him last night more as joke than anything while we chugged beers and he made a good point which is even if that car was purchased for $31K and driven normal miles resale would suck arse and the only person that car would make sense for would be someone who was going to drive normal miles and keep it for 5, 7 or 10 years which is sad but the norm lately.

 

I don't know how it is in other areas but here in ATL up until a few years ago when gas spiked Caddy sold a ton of Escalades to wanna be rapper crowd here in ATL (the new motown if you will) primarily because you can't listen to a rap song that doesn't have paid Escalades plug in and Caddy was smart enough to freshen the model up yearly so there was no question everyone knew you were driving last years dated goods just by looking at the grill. I also believed what helped is Caddy leases roughly 70% of its vehicles and you could get into $65K Escalade for $599 per month which spoke well to its target audience.

 

The funny part about ATL is once the wanna be rapper's take to a vehicle like the Escalade, H2, H3, 300C, Charger, everything Jeep except the Wrangler and Liberty the white folks literally stop buying them so not to be associated with the wheel spinning riff-raff. As soon as the economy soften and gas spiked a few years ago Escalades on 24's all but disappeared over night.

 

Here in ATL all the TV advertising on the aforementioned vehicles is targeted toward the urban crowd but this same crowd usually suffers the worst when the economy softens and I believe that is what we are seeing with Caddy.

[bystander]

What were sales at Pontiac and Buick, (Lincolns real competitors) like?

 

 

OUCH!

[bystander]

Thats exactly my point.

 

GM has been pouring mega-buck into Cadillac and Lincoln has been ignored, and Lincoln is the one climbing in sales and Caddy falling?

 

What kind of return on investment did GM get when only 4200 sales separate Lincoln from Caddy?

 

 

Well, considering that Cadillacs command thousands of dollars more than the comparable Lincoln product (exception being the Town Car), Caddy probably enjoys a higher return than that 4200 sales figure suggest.

 

MSRP Comparison

 

07 Cadillac CTS $29.9K-36.4K

07 Lincoln MKZ $29.2-31.1K

 

07 Cadillac SRX $37.2K-43.4K

07 Lincoln MKX $34.1K-35.4K

 

07 Cadillac Escalade $54.7K-57.2K

07 Lincoln Navigator $45.8K-50.7K

 

07 Cadillac Escalade ESV $59.7K

07 Lincoln Navigator L $48.8K-51.7K

 

07 Cadillac Escalade EXT $54.1K

07 Lincoln Mark LT $38.1K-41.5K

 

07 Cadillac DTS $41.5K-48.9K

07 Lincon Town Car $42.1K-50.6K

 

And Cadillac is readying new versions of the CTS and STS this year, so I would expect the gap to Lincoln sales to be at a minimum as the market waits for the new Caddies to come out.

[wescoent]

Well, considering that Cadillacs command thousands of dollars more than the comparable Lincoln product (exception being the Town Car), Caddy probably enjoys a higher return than that 4200 sales figure suggest.

 

MSRP Comparison

 

07 Cadillac CTS $29.9K-36.4K

07 Lincoln MKZ $29.2-31.1K

 

07 Cadillac SRX $37.2K-43.4K

07 Lincoln MKX $34.1K-35.4K

 

07 Cadillac Escalade $54.7K-57.2K

07 Lincoln Navigator $45.8K-50.7K

 

07 Cadillac Escalade ESV $59.7K

07 Lincoln Navigator L $48.8K-51.7K

 

07 Cadillac Escalade EXT $54.1K

07 Lincoln Mark LT $38.1K-41.5K

 

07 Cadillac DTS $41.5K-48.9K

07 Lincon Town Car $42.1K-50.6K

 

And Cadillac is readying new versions of the CTS and STS this year, so I would expect the gap to Lincoln sales to be at a minimum as the market waits for the new Caddies to come out.

 

Good point, but not the whole story. The SRX and CTS have their very expensive architecture to deal with, and between amortizing the cost of developing Sigma, and the more expensive bones, Cadillac's cost advantage with those models are not only wiped out, but turn to Lincoln's favor where profitability is concerned. The DTS just had a top-down redesign, so that price advantage is wiped out as well. The Escalade has an exclusive engine that adds cost, which cuts down some of the difference. When all factors are considered, I'd say the two brands are about the same in overall per-sale profitability, if not in Lincoln's outright favor.

[KinneticBrian]

No doubt the next CTS will pump up Caddy's volume, but Lincoln is doing well with hardly any investment at all. Unlike GM, Ford still knows the value of effective badge engineering . Lincoln doesn't even have original sheetmetal, let alone original chassis .

 

The transaction price for Lincoln is thousands cheaper than a Cadillac, so Caddy selling cars at this level is still very good. The heavy cost to build world-class products must eat into profit margins however. Lincoln is the Walmart version of luxury, affordable and splashy but not terribly tasteful or long-lasting

 

The Wal Mart of luxury? Are you kidding me? How is a Cadillac so much better? Let's see... the garbage Northstar Engine which leaks oil like the Exxon Valdez, would overheat in Switzerland in January. Then you have the STS and SRX which have styling by Sears & Roebuck with a Saks Fifth Avenue price tag and are selling about as well. Lincolns are much more dependable and long lasting than Cadillacs. When is the last time you saw a DeVille or DTS in livery service, let alone with over 300k on it. I know two livery owners who sing the praises of the Town Car. Granted, Lincoln needs some new product, but to equate these cars with Wal Mart (cheap wanna be stuff) is an insult.

[DCK]

One thing I want to mention is that Lincoln needs to step with these fricking stupid retro interiors. Now I don't if a bunch of old farts at some interior award associates throwed a award at the Zephyr, because these retro interiors are just annoying, and it is time to move on into modern interiors. It is like Lincoln knows it is incapable of putting out a modern interior that is competitive. I'd love to see lincolns take on a modern interior.

[Extreme4x4]

So, because you don't like them............... well................. is there really anything else to say???................. change them already. DCK has spoken.

 

So, all the other auto manufacturers are consulting with you, on their interiors???

[DCK]

So, because you don't like them............... well................. is there really anything else to say???................. change them already. DCK has spoken.

 

So, all the other auto manufacturers are consulting with you, on their interiors???

Thank you for understanding.

 

 

But really I hate them, and then on top of that you have even the old style instrument gauges..........................really they are a disaster IMO. Can they really just try one modern interior.

Edited April 6, 2007 by DCK

[range]

Thank you for understanding.

But really I hate them, and then on top of that you have even the old style instrument gauges..........................really they are a disaster IMO. Can they really just try one modern interior.

 

On a COMPLETELY different subject.....

 

 

Lincoln Zephyr awarded "Best Premium-Priced Car Interior" of the year

 

Both news media and the industry at-large voted the 2006 Lincoln Zephyr as “Best Premium-Priced Car Interior of the Year” at the 7th annual Automotive “Interior of the Year” awards conducted by Wards Auto World magazine.

 

8 Jun 2006:

 

Both news media and the industry at-large voted the 2006 Lincoln Zephyr as “Best Premium-Priced Car Interior of the Year” at the 7th annual Automotive “Interior of the Year” awards conducted by Wards Auto World magazine.

 

Lincoln Zephyr bested other luxury car nominees including the Mercedes S Class, Lexus GS, BMW 3 Series, Audi A6, and Cadillac DTS.

 

“This award emphasizes how we’re changing the game at Lincoln, building on the world-class interiors that Lincoln is known for,” said Peter Horbury, executive director of Design, North America. “The Zephyr was up against some very reputable competition and this honor is a telling sign of the level of detail we’re pouring into our interiors across the lineup.”

 

LINK

Edited April 6, 2007 by range

[PolarBear]

Well, considering that Cadillacs command thousands of dollars more than the comparable Lincoln product (exception being the Town Car), Caddy probably enjoys a higher return than that 4200 sales figure suggest.

 

MSRP Comparison

 

07 Cadillac CTS $29.9K-36.4K

07 Lincoln MKZ $29.2-31.1K

 

07 Cadillac SRX $37.2K-43.4K

07 Lincoln MKX $34.1K-35.4K

 

07 Cadillac Escalade $54.7K-57.2K

07 Lincoln Navigator $45.8K-50.7K

 

07 Cadillac Escalade ESV $59.7K

07 Lincoln Navigator L $48.8K-51.7K

07 Cadillac Escalade EXT $54.1K

07 Lincoln Mark LT $38.1K-41.5K

 

07 Cadillac DTS $41.5K-48.9K

07 Lincon Town Car $42.1K-50.6K

 

And Cadillac is readying new versions of the CTS and STS this year, so I would expect the gap to Lincoln sales to be at a minimum as the market waits for the new Caddies to come out.

 

I'm wondering where those prices come from. $54-$57 describes a typical Chevy Suburban, not an Escalade. And when's the last time anyone saw a Navi with a $50K window sticker? 2003 maybe?

[RichardJensen]

They took a hatchet to Navi sticker prices with the latest revamp. Knocked something like $4k off them.

 

Stats above are somewhat misleading, as they don't contain the full price range, just the range between the trims.

[PolarBear]

I was wondering. Even with the price decrease, I'm looking at a window sticker to a Navi Ultimate L 4X4 with moonroof and navigation for $61215, and that's a pretty typical unit. I also looked up a typical Escalade ESV AWD, and the MSRP is a jaw-dropping $70,700..... and still doesn't have the Power Boards. :shades: Cadillac's biggest seller, BTW. Lexus, for all the hoopla as a "luxury car manufacturer," posts their biggest numbers with the Camry-sized car, for about $40K.

[RichardJensen]

I was wondering. Even with the price decrease, I'm looking at a window sticker to a Navi Ultimate L 4X4 with moonroof and navigation for $61215, and that's a pretty typical unit. I also looked up a typical Escalade ESV AWD, and the MSRP is a jaw-dropping $70,700..... and still doesn't have the Power Boards. :shades: Cadillac's biggest seller, BTW. Lexus, for all the hoopla as a "luxury car manufacturer," posts their biggest numbers with the Camry-sized car, for about $40K.

I think once you're past a certain point, you'll starve to death looking for a base model car. The $48k Navigator is probably more of a theoretical beast than something you'll come across in real life.

 

I guess once the typical response to a piece of optional equipment is "Why not?" you get into a whole new ball game.