Study: Ford ties Honda, Toyota in quality

[NickF1011]

It's amazing what kind of results money can buy. This carries no weight because Ford paid for this survey.

 

Yeah, because the RDA Group is just going to fabricate results based on what their client is willing to pay them. That would work wonders for RDA's reputation in the industry. :rolleyes:

[Ford Jellymoulds]

VW's low position in the charts is living proof that bullshit marketing sells cars something that l never ever believed in, but it's all that is selling them. All German cars benefit being built from a high quality high carbon content rust proof German steel, but VW are just mechanically shit and seem to get away with it.

Edited April 9, 2008 by Ford Jellymoulds

[Furious1Auto]

It's amazing what kind of results money can buy.

A agree 100%! It's obvious that Ford has invested their money into the tooling, and equipment that brought about a significant change in their quality! :shades:

[Edstock]

All German cars benefit being built from a high quality high carbon content rust proof German steel

Steel rusts, unless the nickle content is boosted, wherepon it becomes stainless steel, which is rarely used, as it doesn't stamp well. Depending on where the steel is used, its alloy formulation can vary, including the amount of carbon.

 

What has made a lot of German cars corrosion-resistant has been the adoption of double-sided galvanized sheet. IIRC, AUDI were first to do this.

[matthewq4b]

Steel rusts, unless the nickle content is boosted, wherepon it becomes stainless steel, which is rarely used, as it doesn't stamp well. Depending on where the steel is used, its alloy formulation can vary, including the amount of carbon.

 

What has made a lot of German cars corrosion-resistant has been the adoption of double-sided galvanized sheet. IIRC, AUDI were first to do this.

 

 

Hate to rain your parade but ford was Double galvanizing some sheet metal parts back in the 70's. The ones that I rember off the cuff is the Cowl panel and the inner fender wells on Mid and late 70's Series. I know there were other bits on other vehicels as well.

 

 

Matthew

[Edstock]

Thanks, Matt, didn't know that. The AUDI comment was for EU manufacturers.

 

Anyway, galvanizing is only a temporary respite from corrosion, as once the zinc's gone, the steel starts to rust, and all it takes is a scratch through the zinc to start it.

[Ford Jellymoulds]

Thanks, Matt, didn't know that. The AUDI comment was for EU manufacturers.

 

Anyway, galvanizing is only a temporary respite from corrosion, as once the zinc's gone, the steel starts to rust, and all it takes is a scratch through the zinc to start it.

 

German steel has a high carbon content of which Geman car makers & the VW's of this world enjoy the benefits.

 

Because our lives rely so heavily on iron, its corrosion represents an immense problem and an immense cost. Every year we spend about $500 billion, close to 5 per cent of the gross national products of the United States and Canada, replacing rusted metal. All because iron is too loose with its electrons.

 

Essentially, carbon donates electrons to iron, "reducing" it from its positively charged ionic form in the ore to its neutral form in the metal. Corrosion is the reverse of this process, with iron surrendering electrons to oxygen, forming reddish iron oxide, which then flakes off the surface. More iron is exposed, forming more rust, until eventually all the metal corrodes.

http://www.canada.com/montrealgazette/news...f3-f6980b595b59

[matthewq4b]

Edstock Posted Today, 10:34 AM

Thanks, Matt, didn't know that. The AUDI comment was for EU manufacturers.

 

Anyway, galvanizing is only a temporary respite from corrosion, as once the zinc's gone, the steel starts to rust, and all it takes is a scratch through the zinc to start it.

 

No problem ED

 

Many are not aware that the NA guys were on the leading edge of a lot tech they just used where nessesary. The panthers had galvanized rocker assembles right from day one As did the 77 And up GM Fullsize cars. As these were major structual members in both vehicles.

 

The zinc is sacraficed instead of the base metal and slows the corrsion of the base metal. But as you said once it is gone there is no protection. The innner wheel wells in the old F series were not even painted for that matter just bare galvanized steel steel. It caused more than little grief with the early Electronic inigntion boxes too. As the box was bolted to the innner wheel well And the alumnum - pot metal box it was housed in rapidly galvanic corroded against the zinc plating. Eventually you lost the ground continutiy between the box and the body. A seprate ground wire from the box to the chassis or some good Anti Oxidizing compound was a must. Had to do that on more than few old Ford P/U's.

 

The later EI boxes had A higher grade of pot metal-aluminum in the casing and were not as suseptable to it.

 

 

German steel has a high carbon content of which Geman car makers & the VW's of this world enjoy the benefits.

 

Because our lives rely so heavily on iron, its corrosion represents an immense problem and an immense cost. Every year we spend about $500 billion, close to 5 per cent of the gross national products of the United States and Canada, replacing rusted metal. All because iron is too loose with its electrons.

 

Essentially, carbon donates electrons to iron, "reducing" it from its positively charged ionic form in the ore to its neutral form in the metal. Corrosion is the reverse of this process, with iron surrendering electrons to oxygen, forming reddish iron oxide, which then flakes off the surface. More iron is exposed, forming more rust, until eventually all the metal corrodes.

http://www.canada.com/montrealgazette/news...f3-f6980b595b59

 

 

High Carbon content steel use in NA is not new what do you think F series frames have been built out since the 70's Any one that has tried to drill holes in the stuff for mounting assesories knows what I'm talking about. Stainless is an absolute joy to drill in comparision. How many F Series frames has any one seen rusted out and that is with lower lip on the old C Channel frames that held perpetualy held crude and moisture.

Unitl the last few years higher carbon body panels have presented stamping issues thin higher carbon steels tend to bounce back after stamping so you actually had to over stamp a piece to get it to hold the right shape modern stamping die tech and metalurgy has now over come these hurdles.

 

And if you wanna know the truth some of the most rust prone vehicles in the rust belt were German cars. High carbon steel or not. Until recently they designed their bodys with many nooks and crannies that held on to miosture laden winter salt impregnated sand and dirt. And higher carbon steels still rust. they just tend not to rust as agressivly, but they still rust. In a poor design they will rust out just a quck as mild steel in a proper design.

 

 

If you ask me I think some of the most long term rust resistant vehicles built to date are the old F Seires of 1970's vintage. Once the cab corners rot off and the above the rear well wells rot out they pretty much stopped rusting. I mean the numbers of them on the road still now 30 years later boogles the mind.

On the flip side the GM trucks of the era rotted every were. Rockers cab corners floors pans hoods ETC. Oh and that reminds me the Floor pans in the older F series were galvanized as well.

 

 

Matthew

[Edstock]

On the flip side the GM trucks of the era rotted every were.

They sure did. Cancer everywhere.

[mkaresh]

Also noting that Ford's brands all moved up on the VDS, compared to the IQS, it would suggest that, if anything, Ford's VDS numbers in 2-3 years will be better than their IQS numbers today.

 

Ford moved up in the middle, where the numbers are so close together that the amount of movement doesn't mean anything. And Mercury was high to start with. (Because they don't have the Focus and the pickups? Or owner demographics?) The major change was with Lincoln.

[mkaresh]

A straight linear correlation between IQS and VDS says that the VDS score will be 1.66 * IQS + 20.883. (Yes, I put all these values in Excel.). The average name plate's VDS score deviated 26 points from that trend line, or about 11%. If I weren't lazy I'd post the scatter-plot.

 

Nice work. I look forward to when it's possible to do this sort of thing with TrueDelta's data.

 

Did you also calculate the correlation?

Edited April 10, 2008 by mkaresh

[NickF1011]

Ford moved up in the middle, where the numbers are so close together that the amount of movement doesn't mean anything. And Mercury was high to start with. (Because they don't have the Focus and the pickups? Or owner demographics?) The major change was with Lincoln.

 

I've always thought Mercury's ratings were high due to the lack of fullsize vehicles, both F-series and Expedition. Trucks just simply break more often. It's in the nature of their duty cycle.