Grey Goose Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 I hate to bust the party but here is my two cents. It matters not a twit whether we pass this or not because its only going last for a month or so before its thrown out the window. Here's why.... NO WAY GM is going to survive. They were at the White House yesterday discussing options and owning up to burning through $31 BILLION in cash last year. They now need $20 BILLION more just to turn the lights on. At some point even Obama is going to say enough and force them into a Govt. bankruptcy and we all know what that means. While I understand why the UAW went to Ford to cut this deal there is simply no way GM can afford even this contract and at this point it's out of their hands. In fact it's out of our hands at this point. GM is going to fail and then a judge is going to impose his will on what we make and Ford will demand the same. It was a good ride while it lasted but I honestly think it's over. I hate to be the pessimist here, but look at the facts and the dollars. So all of this "HELL NO vote no" posturing is a moot point. Vote yes.....vote no it doesn't matter the whole damned thing is going to be flushed down the toilet by March 31st when The Big Three has to present their final plans to the govt. Can anyone here convince me that things will turn around and GM Ford and Chrysler will stop bleeding cash in the next 4 weeks? March 31st is the date....mark it down. So go ahead and vote whatever way you feel you must. Doesn't matter even this horrible deal will not stand for long because the economy is just going to keep getting worse and these companies are simply out of money period. I hope I'm wrong but I just don't see it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Builderdad Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 Pasted from another article The Detroit Three cite legacy costs as their biggest competitive disadvantage. Their solution? Add to the legacy costs by retiring more workers faster with buy-out packages subtracted from the pension. When the market crashed the government loaned the D-3 money on condition that they close factories, cut jobs, and slash wages. Then, the government passed a stimulus bill to create jobs. GM estimated its retiree health care costs at $50 billion and committed half that amount—$24.1 billion (and promises)—to a union trust fund [VEBA]. Now the government demands that 50% of the 50% underfunded trust be replaced with stock worth less than six rolls of toilet paper. It’s illegal for a company to invest more than ten percent of pension assets in their own stock. Why should a VEBA be different? Over and above the question of legality, the government’s proposal compromises the union’s ethical capacity to represent workers. The union will have a vested interest in the company’s stock. But you haven’t heard the punch line. GM is planning a government run bankruptcy. The union won’t be left with an investment for retiree health care. The union will be left holding a bag of chicken necks. And the slapstick at Chrysler makes the situation at GM look like romantic comedy. Government mandates neglect the fact that the Con Caucus already ratified contracts that will ratchet working conditions down to nonunion levels by 2011. Well actually, the company-government didn’t neglect the Con’s con, they just want to pop the clutch and hit the wall at maximum rpm. The government is strong-arming workers into accepting terms that will achieve the benefits of bankruptcy without litigation. The wage scale will become nonunion; the VEBA won’t last a decade; on demand will replace the eight hour day; the pension is underfunded; the D-3 will close dozens of plants and import half the cars they sell in the US; all without the hassle and haggle of bankruptcy. What the hell is there to vote for? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TAC511 Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 I hate to bust the party but here is my two cents. It matters not a twit whether we pass this or not because its only going last for a month or so before its thrown out the window. Here's why....NO WAY GM is going to survive. They were at the White House yesterday discussing options and owning up to burning through $31 BILLION in cash last year. They now need $20 BILLION more just to turn the lights on. At some point even Obama is going to say enough and force them into a Govt. bankruptcy and we all know what that means. While I understand why the UAW went to Ford to cut this deal there is simply no way GM can afford even this contract and at this point it's out of their hands. In fact it's out of our hands at this point. GM is going to fail and then a judge is going to impose his will on what we make and Ford will demand the same. It was a good ride while it lasted but I honestly think it's over. I hate to be the pessimist here, but look at the facts and the dollars. So all of this "HELL NO vote no" posturing is a moot point. Vote yes.....vote no it doesn't matter the whole damned thing is going to be flushed down the toilet by March 31st when The Big Three has to present their final plans to the govt. Can anyone here convince me that things will turn around and GM Ford and Chrysler will stop bleeding cash in the next 4 weeks? March 31st is the date....mark it down. So go ahead and vote whatever way you feel you must. Doesn't matter even this horrible deal will not stand for long because the economy is just going to keep getting worse and these companies are simply out of money period. I hope I'm wrong but I just don't see it. Well are you taking a buyout??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
napbob Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 I agree. This vote is a joke. It's time to jump ship. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Goose Posted February 27, 2009 Author Share Posted February 27, 2009 Well are you taking a buyout??? No TAC I'm not. You see I have a chronic terminal disease and if I take a buyout with only 16 years in I lose healthcare. While I honestly believe I'll lose it anyway, I'll lose it for sure if I take a buyout so very little chance is better than no chance at all. So maybe you can find it in your heart to allow me to try to live for a few months longer. Does that answer your smug smartass question? Whether I agree with this contract or not ( and I don't ) the situation is now out of our hands, we just don't know it yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skeptic Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 I hate to bust the party but here is my two cents. It matters not a twit whether we pass this or not because its only going last for a month or so before its thrown out the window. Here's why....NO WAY GM is going to survive. They were at the White House yesterday discussing options and owning up to burning through $31 BILLION in cash last year. They now need $20 BILLION more just to turn the lights on. At some point even Obama is going to say enough and force them into a Govt. bankruptcy and we all know what that means. While I understand why the UAW went to Ford to cut this deal there is simply no way GM can afford even this contract and at this point it's out of their hands. In fact it's out of our hands at this point. GM is going to fail and then a judge is going to impose his will on what we make and Ford will demand the same. It was a good ride while it lasted but I honestly think it's over. I hate to be the pessimist here, but look at the facts and the dollars. So all of this "HELL NO vote no" posturing is a moot point. Vote yes.....vote no it doesn't matter the whole damned thing is going to be flushed down the toilet by March 31st when The Big Three has to present their final plans to the govt. Can anyone here convince me that things will turn around and GM Ford and Chrysler will stop bleeding cash in the next 4 weeks? March 31st is the date....mark it down. So go ahead and vote whatever way you feel you must. Doesn't matter even this horrible deal will not stand for long because the economy is just going to keep getting worse and these companies are simply out of money period. I hope I'm wrong but I just don't see it. I agree with you GM and Chrysler are dead.This however may save Ford.Those still loyal enough to buy American will have only one option to buy a Ford. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spring Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 The best analogy I can equate this to is chemotherapy. I say this because my beloved cousin who is 46 just went through a grueling 6 month round of chemotherapy for colon cancer. With cancer you're given the diagnosis and a couple of options. You can choose to do nothing and die from the cancer. You can also choose to take the chemotherapy which is akin to deliberately poisoning your own body. You'll probably lose your hair, be violently ill and suffer all sorts of side affects that will leave you feeling less than human. You'll go through a time where you wonder if it's worth this torture but then you have to decide if you'd rather die or live. We're, essentlially being told the same thing. Do this or die. It's difficult because we being given the results of our decision on this agreement. SUB cuts, COLA suspension, loss of holidays, loss of break time, etc. Accept this or take our chances with the IUAW going back to the table with GM or Chrysler or possibly worse. And just like with chemotherapy, it may not work. The D3 might still face bankruptcy. So what do we do? What are our alternatives? We don't really have many, do we? Just a few thoughts on this.... I know I still haven't decided what I'm going to do. Just praying and debating with myself..... God Bless and Keep all of you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
takeme back 2blue Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 No TAC I'm not. You see I have a chronic terminal disease and if I take a buyout with only 16 years in I lose healthcare. While I honestly believe I'll lose it anyway, I'll lose it for sure if I take a buyout so very little chance is better than no chance at all. So maybe you can find it in your heart to allow me to try to live for a few months longer.Does that answer your smug smartass question? Whether I agree with this contract or not ( and I don't ) the situation is now out of our hands, we just don't know it yet. I'm with ya,Brother! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raws41900 Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 you make it sound like bankruptcy is the end of the companies, it isnt. it may hurt them but they wont close their doors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Goose Posted February 27, 2009 Author Share Posted February 27, 2009 you make it sound like bankruptcy is the end of the companies, it isnt. it may hurt them but they wont close their doors. I didn't say it would be the end of the companies. I said it would be the end of our contract pay and benefits Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spring Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 you make it sound like bankruptcy is the end of the companies, it isnt. it may hurt them but they wont close their doors. But at that point, our contract is voided and our retirees are left at the mercy of the courts. They would restructure, yes, but at what cost to us? We have to look out for ourselves but we also have an obligation to look after the interests of our retirees. Do you think in a restructuring that our pay scale, our benefits - any of that would remain the same? All pension obligations would be voided. I will NOT do that to my dad or my father in law. No way, no how. We need to look at who will be hurt the most in all of this and, trust me, when the dust settles, it won't be the company! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordguy61mi Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 Can I ask a question? Why is it that we're throwing a lot of stuff out of our contract and renegotiating it, but we still keep this "must have parity with the other companies" bullshit? Why is that so sacred? Why can't the union say, okay you guys want to change stuff, we're going to throw out this "must have parity" crap and negotiate separate contracts for each company based on their individual needs. I don't get it. We're agreeing to all this change but the one thing that's going to screw us the most isn't up for debate? Why? I can see it benefiting us in the past, but it sure doesn't now! The union could say, ok we'll agree to these changes, but if we negotiate something else with the other companies, you don't get it, too. Why should they get it too anyway?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Goose Posted February 27, 2009 Author Share Posted February 27, 2009 The best analogy I can equate this to is chemotherapy. I say this because my beloved cousin who is 46 just went through a grueling 6 month round of chemotherapy for colon cancer. With cancer you're given the diagnosis and a couple of options. You can choose to do nothing and die from the cancer. You can also choose to take the chemotherapy which is akin to deliberately poisoning your own body. You'll probably lose your hair, be violently ill and suffer all sorts of side affects that will leave you feeling less than human. You'll go through a time where you wonder if it's worth this torture but then you have to decide if you'd rather die or live. We're, essentlially being told the same thing. Do this or die. It's difficult because we being given the results of our decision on this agreement. SUB cuts, COLA suspension, loss of holidays, loss of break time, etc. Accept this or take our chances with the IUAW going back to the table with GM or Chrysler or possibly worse. And just like with chemotherapy, it may not work. The D3 might still face bankruptcy. So what do we do? What are our alternatives? We don't really have many, do we? Just a few thoughts on this.... I know I still haven't decided what I'm going to do. Just praying and debating with myself..... God Bless and Keep all of you. I agree Spring. I had 6 months of chemo at $20 grand a pop, 28 radiation treatments at $8 grand a pop. Surgery at $15 grand. Ford simply can't give you enough money to retire without healthcare. One would have to be Warren Buffet to afford the cost of life when you're sick. I was just telling TAC why I couldn't take the buyout is all. Bottom line is GM is simply not solvent. No they're not going to go away to be sure but you can rest assured that we will write the check for their survival. I can scream at Corker McConnell Shelby and Demint all I want. It doesn't change the economic realities here. Even Obama isn't going to keep pouring billions down GM's black hole forever. When that happens we'll all look back fondly at this contract and wish we had it back. Trust me I hope I'm wrong because if I lose my job it's a death sentence. But it is what it is and there is simply no way it's going to change by March 31st. Two points in closing though Spring....there was NEVER a time when I thought the chemo wasn't worth it. Such is the human drive to live even for one more day. And oh yeah, if nothing else ....I got my hair back girl LOL :happy feet: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Goose Posted February 27, 2009 Author Share Posted February 27, 2009 Can I ask a question? Why is it that we're throwing a lot of stuff out of our contract and renegotiating it, but we still keep this "must have parity with the other companies" bullshit? Why is that so sacred? Why can't the union say, okay you guys want to change stuff, we're going to throw out this "must have parity" crap and negotiate separate contracts for each company based on their individual needs. I don't get it. We're agreeing to all this change but the one thing that's going to screw us the most isn't up for debate? Why? I can see it benefiting us in the past, but it sure doesn't now! The union could say, ok we'll agree to these changes, but if we negotiate something else with the other companies, you don't get it, too. Why should they get it too anyway?? Simply because The UAW cannot put one company at a competitive disadvantage to the others. They all need to be on the same level playing field such as it is. That old adage, "live by the sword, die by the sword" comes into play here. If GM can't live with this agreement, then Ford won't have to either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spring Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 I agree Spring. I had 6 months of chemo at $20 grand a pop, 28 radiation treatments at $8 grand a pop. Surgery at $15 grand.Ford simply can't give you enough money to retire without healthcare. One would have to be Warren Buffet to afford the cost of life when you're sick. I was just telling TAC why I couldn't take the buyout is all. Bottom line is GM is simply not solvent. No they're not going to go away to be sure but you can rest assured that we will write the check for their survival. I can scream at Corker McConnell Shelby and Demint all I want. It doesn't change the economic realities here. Even Obama isn't going to keep pouring billions down GM's black hole forever. When that happens we'll all look back fondly at this contract and wish we had it back. Trust me I hope I'm wrong because if I lose my job it's a death sentence. But it is what it is and there is simply no way it's going to change by March 31st. Two points in closing though Spring....there was NEVER a time when I thought the chemo wasn't worth it. Such is the human drive to live even for one more day. And oh yeah, if nothing else ....I got my hair back girl LOL :happy feet: Good for you! :party2: :cheerleader: My cousin is getting her hair back slowly. I just remember her, in the worst moments of the chemo (I'm sure you don't need the graphic details) saying that she thought it just might be easier to let it all go. The self pity only lasted a few moments but many go through it. She's laughing now about her punk rock hairdo! It's good to live another day! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Goose Posted February 28, 2009 Author Share Posted February 28, 2009 Good for you! :party2: :cheerleader: My cousin is getting her hair back slowly. I just remember her, in the worst moments of the chemo (I'm sure you don't need the graphic details) saying that she thought it just might be easier to let it all go. The self pity only lasted a few moments but many go through it. She's laughing now about her punk rock hairdo! It's good to live another day! Indeed my Sister it is good to live another day. Even if I'll be broke LOL :happy feet: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nextup Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 Can I ask a question? Why is it that we're throwing a lot of stuff out of our contract and renegotiating it, but we still keep this "must have parity with the other companies" bullshit? Why is that so sacred? Why can't the union say, okay you guys want to change stuff, we're going to throw out this "must have parity" crap and negotiate separate contracts for each company based on their individual needs. I don't get it. We're agreeing to all this change but the one thing that's going to screw us the most isn't up for debate? Why? I can see it benefiting us in the past, but it sure doesn't now! The union could say, ok we'll agree to these changes, but if we negotiate something else with the other companies, you don't get it, too. Why should they get it too anyway?? Because everyone sitting in on those meeting had over years, and they don't care about anyone that has 20 yrs. or less, those fucks on that committee where looking out for them self, But what they don't realize is they made a deal that will eventually kill the union. They talked there way right out of existance. THEY BROKE THEMSELVES Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigJim Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 Sound to me like a pretty smart guy..And I do believe your right, I also think that the company is watching very closely. The mood at my place is grim and the supervisors are already making moves and challenges. I believe that it is over ,but we can't give in to the company and let them think we'll bend over. Over or not we have to vote no. If nothing else just to send a message, That we have put up with this too long and we are done..No means No,and it's something the new U.A.W.and FORD haven't heard in a long time..Sorry about your health ,you seem like a strong guy, so I know you can kick it. Keep posting like reading your thoughts[size="3" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Goose Posted February 28, 2009 Author Share Posted February 28, 2009 Sound to me like a pretty smart guy..And I do believe your right, I also think that the company is watching very closely. The mood at my place is grim and the supervisors are already making moves and challenges. I believe that it is over ,but we can't give in to the company and let them think we'll bend over. Over or not we have to vote no. If nothing else just to send a message, That we have put up with this too long and we are done..No means No,and it's something the new U.A.W.and FORD haven't heard in a long time..Sorry about your health ,you seem like a strong guy, so I know you can kick it. Keep posting like reading your thoughts[size="3" Thanks for the kind words Big Jim my Brother. I really appreciate it from the bottom of my heart. I agree, I work in Cleveland and the mood here is dour to say the least. Supervisors are out of control, doing whatever they want and damn any consequenses. I'm sure it's the same everywhere but I swear they treat us like we're the enemy. It's as if they think these engines build themselves and we're simply in the way. In their defense they're ( the supervisors ) scared to death and they never know when they will be the next one to get the dreaded tap on the shoulder and told to gather their things and leave. That said it's way past time for Ford to call off the dogs and give us all a break. For to many years we've been leaned on, threatened,intimidated and generally hassled. I mean "we're all one Ford family" Mulally says but christ I don't treat my family this way. Oh well thats my rant. Thanks again Big Jim and good luck to you and to us all. We're going to need it I fear Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.