F150 shopper Posted September 30, 2011 Share Posted September 30, 2011 (edited) Hello all. I was at a local dealership last night and was getting close to closing the deal on a new F150 ecoboost XLT but I was a little put off by a few extra fees. I don't know what a "real" invoice looks like but the one they showed me looked legit as far as I could tell. But on the invoice it had $100 fuel charge (was told that's for them to fill the tank) and another $588 advertising fee. And then I was told they charge another $389 for document fees. This Doc fee was not on the invoice btw. I had them below invoice by about $190 and that included the fuel fee and Ad fee but not the doc fee so the "real" number to me was $200 over invoice. I wound up walking out the door for 3 reasons. 1) These extra fees totaling $1,077 2) They wouldn't tell me the interest rate if I went with the Ford credit loan until they entered all my personal info including SS #. ( I thought this was very strange just to tell me what the interest rate was) 3) They wouldn't even appraise my trade-in. They said because they couldn't even meet me half way on the rough number I told them I wanted for the truck. I've done a ton of research and know what my truck is selling for and gave them a target trade-in price that was $2k - $4k BELOW what the truck would sell for. So my question is..... Are ALL these fees legit and did I f-up by walking away? I'm kinda thinking about selling my truck my self and just do a clean deal but I don't know how long it would take to sell my truck and I really need that $$ to off set the cost of this F150. Any advise would be much appreciated. Edited September 30, 2011 by F150 shopper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted September 30, 2011 Share Posted September 30, 2011 Hello all. I was at a local dealership last night and was getting close to closing the deal on a new F150 ecoboost XLT but I was a little put off by a few extra fees. I don't know what a "real" invoice looks like but the one they showed me looked legit as far as I could tell. But on the invoice it had $100 fuel charge (was told that's for them to fill the tank) and another $588 advertising fee. And then I was told they charge another $389 for document fees. This Doc fee was not on the invoice btw. All totally legit and above board. The doc fee is a dealership fee charged by almost all dealerships. It ranges from $75 to $600. I call it "additional dealer profit" because that's all it is. As long as you know what it is up front then you just add it to the vehicle price. With X plan they can only charge $100 max. The fuel charge and advertising fee is actually part of the true dealer invoice - what the dealer pays Ford. Although $100 fuel charge sounds higher than I remember it - but that could have changed. Bottom line is those are included in what the dealer pays Ford so that is true dealer invoice. Of course they get 3% holdback later but that's another subject. 2) They wouldn't tell me the interest rate if I went with the Ford credit loan until they entered all my personal info including SS #. ( I thought this was very strange just to tell me what the interest rate was) Once again - 100% legit. Your interest rate depends on your credit rating. It's the same if you go to a bank or credit union. The better your credit score the lower your interest rate and vice versa. They have to pull your credit history to be sure. They could guess and tell you the lowest possible rate but then after they ran the application you'd be upset if they raised it from 3% to 12%. 3) They wouldn't even appraise my trade-in. They said because they couldn't even meet me half way on the rough number I told them I wanted for the truck. I've done a ton of research and know what my truck is selling for and gave them a target trade-in price that was $2k - $4k BELOW what the truck would sell for. You have to understand that the used car dept. is a separate entity that has to make money on their own. They don't care that you're buying a new car - they have to appraise your vehicle based on what they think they can sell it for and that takes into account their current inventory, current local market trends, current auction prices, etc. Let's say you're trading in a used Camry. They can go to the wholesale auction any day of the week and buy Camrys all day long, so they're not going to give you top dollar for yours. Sometimes the salesman will play games and tell you they're giving you more than it's really worth but in that case the extra money is coming from the new car sale. Even if you had a really good vehicle that was worth the estimate trade-in value - if it's a vehicle that the dealership already has 10 of sitting on the used car lot they just don't need another one. OTOH if it's a used car that is rare or in short supply/high demand then they might be willing to give you more for it - because they can't just get one from the auction. Just remember the used car guy is a separate business that buys wholesale and sells retail and it will make a lot more sense. So my question is..... Are ALL these fees legit and did I f-up by walking away? I'm kinda thinking about selling my truck my self and just do a clean deal but I don't know how long it would take to sell my truck and I really need that $$ to off set the cost of this F150. Everything is legit - they're not trying to pull any fast ones on you. Sounds like they were honest and up front so far. $200 over invoice including the doc fee is not a bad price at all. Can you do better? Maybe. If you really want to dump your truck (no pun intended) quickly just ask them for a trade-in appraisal and see what they offer. Take it to CarMax and ask for an appraisal and compare. Or find any local used truck dealer and see what they'll give you for it. At least then you'll know what you can get and decided whether to keep it or sell it yourself. Selling it yourself will always bring more money but it's a hassle and could take a long time. Only you can decide. Another option is to lease the truck to get lower payments, sell the truck yourself at your leisure, then buy out the lease at the end. Leasing is just another form of financing. Essentially you're just financing the depreciation for the first 39 months, then you can finance the balance for another 2-3 years or pay cash by then. Just another option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyrox Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 The 2012 fuel charge is now $138 from 2 different dealer sheets. One in Arizona and one in California. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyrox Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 Just looked at my paperwork again, the $588 advertising fee is still the same for 2012 F150's Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winterfrost Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 what are all these fee you people are talking about gas fee I thought a gas fee was only on a mustang GT500 my dealer don't even charge a paper fee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 what are all these fee you people are talking about gas fee I thought a gas fee was only on a mustang GT500 my dealer don't even charge a paper fee It's just a line item on the dealer's invoice. It's already included in the invoice price so you should never see it or worry about it. Some people see the invoice and freak out about it not realizing it's already included in the dealer invoice price and MSRP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GT_IE Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 Refuse to pay them. Those are ridiculous fees, and even if they are "real", so what? You negotiate a price. Evrything is negotiable. First, find the real invoice price. Look around on the internet, i think edmunds.com has it. Decide how much you will pay and tell them you will pay that amount plus tax, tag, and title. They can slice and dice it however they want. Charge $1 for the car and call the rest a convenience fee, doesn't matter how they get to your number, they just need to get there. They are gaming you FOR SURE. For the loan, if you belong to a credit union, call them for their best rate and and if the dealer cant beat it, too bad for the dealer. Dont agree on a price for the car without knowing the rate or they will game the system and use the rate for profit. Fine, let them run your ssn first, just get the rate BEFORE settling on a price, otherwise you don't know how much you are paying. Stand firm. Consider using a car buying service. Like costco has one, you say what you want and they guarantee you a certain price, no hassle no haggle. Ignore ford fanboys like akirby, it is clear that he just wants you to bend over and take one from the dealer and offer you zero advice for actually getting a deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 First, find the real invoice price. Look around on the internet, i think edmunds.com has it. You think wrong. None of the internet websites have the actual dealer invoice that the dealer pays to Ford. They don't include the advertising fee because it varies by geographic location. Whether you agree with it or not it's a legitimate part of the actual dealer invoice. If you want to negotiate a below cost deal that's fine - but you should at least be sure you have the correct cost to negotiate from. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GT_IE Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 You think wrong. None of the internet websites have the actual dealer invoice that the dealer pays to Ford. They don't include the advertising fee because it varies by geographic location. Whether you agree with it or not it's a legitimate part of the actual dealer invoice. If you want to negotiate a below cost deal that's fine - but you should at least be sure you have the correct cost to negotiate from. I would never negotiate from a dealer invoice. Calling that the "correct cost" is absurd. It is another smoke and mirrors trick from dealers to try to milk every penny they can from you. Sure, they'll show you the advertising fee. But the invoice won't show the $3000 kickback that the manufacturer is currently offering the dealer on the car. If they want to charge you $100 for gas, say no thanks, please empty it and i will bring a gallon in a can to get me down the street where i can fill it up for 1/2 that. If they want to charge a dealer prep fee, ask them to PLEASE not prep it. What that usually means is the "dealer installed swirl" option where some hack destroys your clear coat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flixden Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 I have seen the same fees on three invoices different dealers have shown me. I was finally able to find a dealer who gave me a price of $350 over invoice - the invoice without any of these additional fees. So it is possible to negotiate these fees. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 I have seen the same fees on three invoices different dealers have shown me. I was finally able to find a dealer who gave me a price of $350 over invoice - the invoice without any of these additional fees. So it is possible to negotiate these fees. Everything is negotiable. The question was whether this was a bogus fee that the dealer was tacking on to rip people off and the answer is no - it's a legitimate part of the actual dealer invoice. If they didn't show them as line items on the dealer invoice and they only showed the dealer invoice price and MSRP then nobody would care. I would never negotiate from a dealer invoice. Calling that the "correct cost" is absurd. It is another smoke and mirrors trick from dealers to try to milk every penny they can from you. Sure, they'll show you the advertising fee. But the invoice won't show the $3000 kickback that the manufacturer is currently offering the dealer on the car. I didn't say the invoice was the dealer's final cost. I just said it was the true dealer invoice which is what the dealer pays minus holdback and dealer cash. The holdback is 3% or $1200 on a $40K vehicle and there normally isn't any dealer cash except on older models. Edmunds.com lists public rebates and dealer cash. If you buy on A/Z/X/D plan you normally get a factory rebate in the amount of the dealer cash. But if you want to start counting holdback then you also need to count the interest the dealers pay on their floor plans. In the end it's simply easier to negotiate from true dealer invoice (up or down) since that number is the same for all dealers. Then take any dealer cash or other rebates into account on the offer. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GT_IE Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 I didn't say the invoice was the dealer's final cost. I just said it was the true dealer invoice If you want to negotiate a below cost deal that's fine - but you should at least be sure you have the correct cost to negotiate from. my mistake, not sure why I thought you said cost Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 my mistake, not sure why I thought you said cost Did I say the actual dealer invoice was the true dealer cost? Nope. I said if you want to try and negotiate a below cost deal that's fine but you at least need to know the true dealer cost and to do that you must know that true dealer invoice, then subtract the 3% holdback and any dealer cash. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoldwizard Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 Doc fees are a scam. They charged my son something like $200 just to enter his credit info into the computer and push the button to get his credit report. Everything is computerized. What is the big deal ???!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 Doc fees are a scam. They charged my son something like $200 just to enter his credit info into the computer and push the button to get his credit report. Everything is computerized. What is the big deal ???!!!! I refer to it as Additional Dealer Profit. As long as everyone does it and you know about it then you just figure it into the cost of the vehicle and it's no big deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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