the prisoner

yeah 2 union people are welders but next election that may change and on apprentices none till 2008 and they have aggrements for housepainters too but they threw that out the window company does what it wants and that the purpose of a coa to let milwrights weld and when it comes they will weld period company is not committed to shit look at the inverse layoffs did it happen you tell me survey says no they did not so dont blow smoke and get hopes up company does not want to replace shit period. they dont cover welders when they are on time off now they borrow from other areas what does that tell you buy buy welders borrow one from another area or wait till coa and millwright will do all non certified welding this is reality here folks. not fantasy island that ford needs you ha ha ha ha ha ha it comes down to money period they got the leverage and we are fucked by the international ps red circle means no additions just as they go they are not replaced that should say it all

way forward part 3 or 4 or 5 i forget witch one we are on now

dont count on it with the coa that is coming millwrights will do welding that means guess what welders not needed to be replaced so dont count on anyone getting replaced they want to cut heads if they dont have to replace then they wont. this is ford if it makes sense they did not do it or think of it.

we know you speak truth so much so the union gets pissed on what you say at many locals speak the truth it may hurt up front but respect is respect respect is telling the truth

thats not what our flier says for 2009 truck side say we have no money allocated for launch at this time

so what about kcap ? we gots to know

okay wizard test your knowledge what about kcap? and this isn't a loaded question

ford hires you locally with a national contract thats the facts where you hire can mean the difference in staying working or unfortunately your plant closes . is it fair thats already been decided you don't go to one big ford hiring center in detroit and then they tell you where you will be employed at and then you move to that plant. where you hire is the hand your dealt thats why they have the transfer of operation language and the 10-29-84 leveling dates when you go to another plant opening. face it at least you get moving money buyouts etc talk to any of the old timers they got nothing a few i know moved from plant to plant and got told want the job then show up at this date. that was it other than maybee a small moving allowence of 2 or 3 thousand dollars if lucky. face it this is the system its hard but its fair based on past contracts and thats the facts.

yeah good luck on getting somewhere cause you ain't coming to kcap no apprentices till 08 at the earliest and since the 07 contractual fucking is coming you are hosed.

pattern barganing my ass gm healthcare concession for concession chrysler still none so all the ford dumasses that voted yes and at the plants closing that voted yes damn or should i just say duh the international will not go to chrysler they know they can't afford to loose face with a big fuck no like ford locals should have told the international.

better to have a chance at some security at kcap than being fucked in gen after 07 take a chance a jersey mechanic did came here 2 years ago from the ranger plant no opening worked line 7 months needed mechanic got the job before they brought any apprentices on this is a fact. but wait i want to bitch and try gen and take my chances damn better to try and get to kcap than hope everything will be allright in gen maybee but not if you want to come to kcap were still at least 26 trades total heavy and we have quite a few apprentices on course with 2 years or so on course so like i said before months ago trades can't come if there is no openings by contract and at kcap there ain't gonna be any for quite a long damn time. this is not to be rude this is fact telling the truth may not like it but sounds like your chairman is trying to keep people working than hoping to not get screwed in gen after its gone in 07 . remember this saying we will not open the contract and touch your healthcare damn it happened 2 years later retires won't be touched no they got fucked no vote no choice. so at least your chairman is giving you a choice unlike other higher union officials. passed by 51% my ass and if you didn't vote shame on you and if you did and voted yes then you have got to live with it at kcap it failed over 60%

okay did anyone read previous posts kcap will not put any apprentices on till 08 or later that means new contract in o7 gen is by bye so if your in gen you may be by bye. and yes your right on when plants put apprentices on they have to see that any are laid off but i bet all other plants have freezes also so damn new contract trades fucked. and on trades going bye bye ask your reps that went to sub council couple months ago they know already. if your wanting to go to kcap then productions your only chance we are hevy in trades and have at least 30 apprentices in various trades on course and they are needing spots also so do what you want but in 07 don't blame anyone but yourself on what happens because you where givin an opportunity as production but you arrogance or pride or vanity held you up from getting here. besides in 07 maybe journeymen will get offered before any apprentices get put on but don't hold your breath. and most posters in this thread are in trades and do understand some hire off street some were apprentices we understand the line did not break us when we started and can't kill me if we go back but i'd be danmed if i let some stay working if i had the plant time to go someplace with a future and give up my trades than sit in gen and be fucked after 07.

but then again gm doesn't offer an education buyout either pay you and get health insurance and a degree but then again i want more give me more i'd rather see the retiree's get more than having to pay for there healthcare.

it comes down to this get to a plant thats working or risk gen in 07. get this people read the detroit news ford chrysler and gm want fewer and fewer trades and classifications. most companies only have mechanical and electrical and look how much they contract out now. read previous post ford treats maint. like the red headed stepchild. sooner or later we will be reduced or gone. thats why all 326 production are coming to kcap and onlyn 20 maint. hell risk it sign back to production you revert to your previous line senority and if i had more time than someone already going to kcap as production raise hell it's called senority people the squeeky wheel gets the grease. get to a plant thats working kcap is launching new escape in dec and the 09 pickup truck soon. thats at least 5 more years of work hopefuly where as you have 1yr 2 months of gen not a math major here but 5 is more than 1.

kcap has a freeze on apprentices till 08 so if you want to risk being in gen then thats your roll of the dice but 670 signed up for buyouts better to go to production and get shown as someone wanting to come here and that away give one of the people here there buyout so you can come up. besides being an aprentice you are under jac rules and that has plusses and minuses read your contract. truley in my opinion and ask on this forum any trades laid off or apprentices have been and are being screwed period so its your choice . i know other apprentices came here from jersey and they were put on the bottom of the list. as to the journeymen we had a hilo mechanic show up from jersey no openings went to the line 6 or so months later job came open he aplied got it. so to the journeymen like i said in other posts get here any way you can ford will post the openings when they come and you have a better chance coming in as a previous journeyman only drawback is you will get a new maint senority date but hey that beter than dying in gen 07 is the deadline date in more ways than one so why risk it kcap gets 1 buyout for every production that signes to come and we have plenty extra that signed up. face it trades will get sold for production everytime. just like the promise all that signed up were coming read your contract if there is an opening you come and like i said before kcap is heavy in trades and you cant take a job thats not there. good luck and choose wisely besides if you go to a new plant you get a new entance date no matter where you go so if you came here we have 9 mill apprentices you would be #10 so when you got done in a year and turned out when they turned out 2 years later they would have time on you. and in 07 6000+ hours in gen won't mean shit other than hi to bad so sad and i bet ford system wide won't be adding many apprentices the way the way forward is going

your right on the company wanting to give everyone a buyout and the union saying hold up not because of money dues etc. its because your fellow brother and sisters can't show up to work everyday and thats why we have extra people on rolls if you get rid of all the extra's then we don't run its the company acting like the bean counters save now but what about later no people no build suv trucks etc no money comes in soon we are in norfolks boat no future get it . right know the union has more common sense than the company on how kcap runs day to day not like the company there last few vehicles are proof that when you don't invest in your future you have no future. save a buck and it may cost you 10 times later thats why unfortunately fords in the mess its in now and our union brothers and sisters are out of jobs plants closing and families hurt. not saying that the union is scott free on this they protect the deadbeats way to much but then again deadbeats cry and sue while the ones that could stand up against the deadbeats just don't or won't or worse spout off half truths and posting them instead of going to union meetings or dropping by the bargaining committe room and asking whats up and getting involved period guess what people you are the damn union so speak up get a set and stand up wether its management trying to screw quality or the deadbeat not coming to work. so thats my rant so mr what next you got a brain and a voice use it or at least think of what you post before you post it. as some leave st louis people are coming in. the union looses dues on 30 out people but you don't hear them telling people not to go because if you do we will loose our dues. damn dude you got a brain use it!!!!!!!!!!!!1111

man thats a good one since more trades in kc have backed out 2 more pipefitters and electricians cant take a spot that ain't there.

skilled trades are appendex d employees they are differen't than line workers and when they go into skilled trades as apprentices they get a new entry date differen't from there plant time anyway so if the guys showing 99 senority might have 10 15 20 + years before that date.

since 11 electricians have not signed up here at kcap to take the buyout i doubt that number highly doubt that number and since kcap is 14 or so electricians heavy we'll see. as for the rest only 5 millwrights signed up and 1 is changing his mind not to go and only 1 welder well as they say only time will tell.

those numbers sound close but a lot of guys signed up just to see what there offering plus kcap wants there numbers cut down before they take any people. so to st louis trades good luck but i dont think most of those people will go.

i think your right new model no transfers. but again all norfolks models already built at kcap and detroit truck your already disadvantaged.

i can see the ranger people getting a transfer of operations with there prroduct but norfolk is screwed they already build everything at detroit truck already no product moving there look at st loius as example they are signing up so buyout packages will be ofered at louisville if they had a right to move they would be going straight out example mariner transfers to kcap. and after 2008 new body style on teuck new truck that means never having been buit at norfolk then no moving with product.

and they do survey the gen pool for trades know that for a fact they do that before they take apprentices. and on an in plant opening for skilled trades they do have to post in plant thats how they filled a small tools opening here if they could find no qualified applicants then they can go to the outside. like the people said before local union people your hired locally not nationally by ford

also with the 150 -200 overstaffed they say we are 60 trades over the number even with buyout packages that will reduce to number if they take it we have guys with 30 plus years that did not go the last round. plus they have apprentices on course and that puts the trades back over there numbers so good luck i don't think they will be taking any trades. they did not want the ones they got forced to take on the transfer of operations on the mariner. the plant just tried to do an inverse voluntary layoff 26 people it got forceable cancled but that tells you we have to many trades in the plants eyes.

kc builds mariners escapes tributes one side and all models f150 8 ft 6 ft and short box and flaresides build all motor configurations been building 6 cylinders for almost 2 years now. had a pallet of v10 that are for a test models show up to be run face it kcap builds more models than norfolk thats fact. and with one side of plant running 10 hours does not cost much more to run the truck side. besides kci came in talked to there boss said mtp had new power and free going in right now and that vo was telling them norfolk was to be closed. so i don't think kcap will loose the f150 . there a free trade zone and they have 625 acres with roads and utilities set up for the suppliers to move on sight already. i hate to see anyone close period but when salary from st louis atlanta and wixom and norfolk are transfering here thats a pretty good sign that it's not us. hell norfolks old plant manager daughter just transfered here.