morgande

No I didn't miss any point. Funny you should mention a grand tour. If you watch the video 6verses8, every vehicle in there was a GT sedan. That's a Ford sponsored marketing video. And they took care to pick each vehicle in that video. So clearly Ford is arguing that they are just as good and comprable to a BMW 550 or a E550 or the Jag. But they aren't. They aren't even close. Fords SHO has it pitted against and Audi and an Infinity. They are making a case that their vehicles perform at the same level. Not just in strait line performance. But across the board. Ford is making claims their vehicles can't back up. That is what my point is. They want you to think that because they are so quiet, they have so much power, and so much technology that they are right in the mix. Contenders. Worthy choices amoungst the worlds best. But the truth is, not everything stacks up 1:1. You can't show a video with an MKS going up a mountain and proclaiming to the world that it narrowly loss out the BWM 550i. One might then assume, hey this new Lincoln Sedan is just as good. No, it's not! As far as the WRX goes, again you miss my point. I'm comparing their AWD setups and making the argument that one clearly is performance oriented and one is not. But again, if Ford isn't targeting the same crowd then why the 6verses8 site? Why go up against the BMW and the Benz? Just what is Ford trying to prove here? That Ecoboost is as powerful as a V8? Or that an MKS can out perform a Jag, Benz, and a $100k + Italian sports car?

We could sit here and discuss the fine lines of Fords AWD system. What is is, and what it is not. However, the fact remains: I have long argued, and continue to do so, that the AWD system that Ford has developed is not geared towards performance driving. The design article that was posted more than confirms this for me. Upon reading other material, and comparing some basic overall designs of the AWD systems used in vehicles like The Subaru WRX STI and others to that of the Ford, it more than confirms it for me. While some of you might not agree with me, the fact remains that the MKS (and the SHO) are not winning the world over in terms of their handling. And if you chalk that up to being associated with their weight (and distribution of that weight), their AWD configurations, or a combination of the two, the outcome is still the same. They are only 'average' at best when it comes to handling, and when stacked up against the competition they don't compete well in that area. Now, if you figure that was an engineering choice and that these cars are not meant to be German-killers in the handling department, then you can stop reading my post and go back to what you were doing. But when it comes to reading a review, it seems to me that this comparison keeps coming up. And based on what I've seen so far, I have yet to see where this is going to change. A lot of people keep talking about great Ecoboost with AWD is going to be, and how superior it will be to the competition. So far, the only thing I've seen is that Ecoboost with AWD is about as good as a V8 and RWD for strait line acceleration. It doesn't trump anything. It behaves about as good as you would expect....going in a strait line. But in the other areas, it falls short. At least so far in its execution from the MKS and the SHO. And again, I don't see where this is going to change. It is true that AWD can perform as good as RWD in performance driving. But there is nothing coming out of dearborn that can be used as an example.

Yeah, and so does the 2010 GT500. Its only 1% less than the MKS. And it weighs only about 200lbs less too.

Got a link for all this?

http://wardsauto.com/ar/ford_awd_in-house/

News Flash, I didn't say it was. i said its a lot LIKE the haldex, because it is!. With a few slight differences. I'd argue that Ford simply re-engineered the existing Haldex and made their own slight changes to it. But there are more similarities than differences.

Please RJ, can you come up with a better argument than that? I never said I knew more about automotive engineering than anyone. Please go back to my post and show me were I said that. However, if Ford wanted to, they could build a much better MKS (Taurus SHO) than what is on the market right now. And it doesn't take rocket science to figure out how: 1. Move the battery to the trunk. Both cars have ample room back there, and it will help with weigh distribution (yes I never said there wasn't a problem with weight distribution) 2. Eliminate FWD bias. Or provide an override so that the bias can either be RWD or eliminated at 50/50 altogether. Since everything is electronic, its simply a mater of interpreting the feedback from the various sensors that exist now. This shouldn't be something that would require an entirely new engineering effort (at least I dont think so). 3. Replace the dampeners with a set of electronic ones. And move from coils to air springs. That way, the driver isn't stuck with Lincoln-like ride (soft and under-sprung) when they don't want it, or something too stiff when they don't want that either. 4. Easy(er) way to disable traction control. Something that goes along with #3.

At 62%, who would blame Audi for making a few changes. I mean, damn its over 60%. DUH!!!! So, since you swear the issue has everything to do with weight and nothing to do with its torque delivery, then please...show me another FWD biased AWD car that gets praise for its handling. Go ahead..I'll wait. But before I go, check this quote (on the Volvo S60r): http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/car/03...r_awd-road_test Sounds an awful lot like the AWD system used in the MKS. Looks like it performs a lot like the AWD system in the MKS too (perhaps a bit better). Funny, don't remember hearing very high remarks about the Volvo S60Rs handling. Not anything bad per se, just nothing to write home about.

Of course weight distribution maters. I'm not saying it doesn't play a factor. What I am arguing is: The AWD system used in the MKS has not produced a single review from an automotive publication (online and/or print) that had high remarks. The FWD bias of Fords AWD configuration hinders its handling performance. The FWD bias of Fords AWD configuration is primary geared to reducing fuel consumption vs superiority of AWD handling. In laymen terms: The Fords have AWD. They should perform better than they do, and they don't. So whats the hiccup? Weight? Or configuration? I argue configuration, because its something Ford is more in control over verses curb weight.

Weight distribution is not the only cause of the MKS tendency to understeer. Look at the design elements of Audi. They place their engines as far front as they can, well in front of the axle. And they don't have the level of understeer problems that the MKS does. If anything, they have even worst weight distribution than the MKS. There are very few if not any mid-engine or perfect 50.50 balanced 4-door sedans on the market. They are front engine cars. And they have less understeer issues than the MKS. There are BIGGER and heavier cars than the MKS that perform more admirably. All have their engines in the same place. And in most cases, have bigger V8 with forced induction packaging than the smaller V6 in the MKS. They still perform better.

A car with a TTGDI and a flat torque curve of 350 lb-ft of torque should do quite well running up a mountain where the air is thin! But how does it handle? What do the reviews say? http://www.autoblog.com/2009/07/17/review-...uxury-with-a-d/ http://www.edmunds.com/lincoln/mks/2010/review.html http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/sedans...rive/specs.html http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/car/09...the_gate_page_2 http://jalopnik.com/5253188/2010-lincoln-m...ost-first-drive http://www.egmcartech.com/2009/10/08/revie...-be-economical/

Sure, or at least I'll certainly do my best. Fords AWD system is FWD biased in that FWD is its primary operation. Power is transfered to the rear wheels under two main conditions: during hard acceleration and/or slippage of the front wheels. However, power ratio is never 100% to the rear. It will never transfer all of the power to rears. The exact percentage I'm not sure, but I believe its 80% max. Or at least I read that somewhere. Fords AWD system is different that most, in that it only transfers power under certain driving conditions. Its not an 'always on' condition. This was intentionally developed by Ford to reduce the negative fuel economy aspects of traditional AWD systems. This is in stark contrast to other manufacturers configurations like Audi, who run 50/50 always on. Thats what I know about Fords AWD system. It it 100% accurate, no. But its pretty accurate, or at least I think it is. Fords AWD system works very well in flat out acceleration. However, because of its tendency towards FWD, it will naturally understeer in certain driving scenarios. Especially when the accelerator is lightly feathered or not used at all. In the majority (if not all) of the reviews of MKS/SHO vehicles, you will find that the Fords setups tend to understeer. And in some cases, torque steer as well. I have yet to read a review of Fords AWD car that praised its handling characteristics. That being said, I think I clearly have an understanding of how Fords AWS setup works. Going back to the 6verses8 site, you will find that the driver was pretty quiet about speaking on the MKS handling. It had power sure (and in the case of that test, ample power at altitud compared to its naturally aspirated rivals), but he didn't mention anything about how the car actually handled around the corners. You won't hear anyone else on the videos speak about the MKS handling as well. But since you were implying that I didn't know what I was talking about, Please show me some evidence of why Fords AWD setup has such superior handling. And please show me some examples, reviews, editorials, etc that back up this claim. In particular, backing up the claim that Fords AWD is comparable to the Audi Quattro.

Yes, as a mater of fact it did quite well from my understanding. However, I don't think 0-60 is a good indication of a vehicles handling characteristics. Given the article made a point to say that Ford benchmarked Lexus and Audi with respect as to targets of handling and quietness. It just so happens that Audi is well suited for Ford to benchmark because of its AWD/FWD setups. However they tend to use 50/50 neutral setups. Ford went with FWD bias for a reason, and it has everything to do with fuel economy and nothing to do with performance/handling. What is of interest as well is that The Audi V8s just happen to be the weakest of the German V8s. Which also makes them good candidates to put a TTGDI V6 against.

LOL, yeah towncar excluded. We all know TC is a 'Ring killer.

On the Lexus front, kudos for Ford. They really did a good job of taking steps to make their cars as quiet as they could. Not just with Lincoln, but across the board on all three brands. Handling? Outside of the Mustang, Ford offers 1 other car in NA with some aspects of handling, and that's the Focus. Id also say the Fiesta, but its not available yet, and NA didn't make it. One could argue the Fusion, but that is left over DNA from its Mazda roots. And Ford still wont put a 'sporty' powertain in the car to match the chassis. On the Lincoln front, there is no such thing as a Lincoln with great handling. They do ride good though. But until they abandon their FWD bias, they won't ever get to where Audi is with its AWD setups.

Where did you find these stats? Are they averaged across the entire country? Do they take into context other information like demographics, sex, ethnic background? I, for one, know that the average C-Class/3-series buyer in the Washington DC metro area is younger than 40. Especially amongst African American Women...it probably drops to the mid 30s or so. In particular, from a statistical perspective the age demographic for those 2 cars will be significantly lower amongst African Americans than the national Average.

I concur. I rented a Fusion during the Labor Day weekend. Took it out to Bethany Beach on the 'shore. Very impressed with it. Build quality was good. Good materials. I loved the accent lights! Steering was...sublime! Near a BMW, and that says a lot (at least to me). Ride was very smooth too. Great trunk space. I liked that car a lot. I hate that 4 banger though. Yuck!

I don't think this is a bad thing. Both Lincoln and Cadillac customer base represents a demographic that is on its way out the door. So GM is trying to reposition Cadillac to appeal to a younger audience. The CTS and the Escalade are the two vehicles that have the younger audience attention. Maybe not their dollars, but at least their attention. You might argue that this is a disconnect to its customers. I would argue that is -MAY- be a disconnect to its older customer base. But that next-generation of customers is indeed paying attention to what GM is doing with Cadillac. And dollars will eventually go towards that attention. Lincoln is not appealing to the same customer base that Cadillac is. Their 'core' vehicles make that evident. I haven't seem Ford try to reach out to that younger demographic of luxury buyers that Cadillac is trying to appeal to. Just as I don't see Cadillac trying to appeal to its current customer base. There just isn't any balance in the portfolios. I will say this though, who ever made the comment about the CTS and 'soul' is dead on! I don't think there is anything in the Lincoln lineup with that kind of soul. At least not yet.

WTF kind of a prejudicial statement is that????????? WTF are you implying???????????????????

Let the #s tell the story (in August): The LaCrosse sold: 2,816 The MKZ sold: 1,621 The Milan sold: 3,844

Not true. The word "Nigga" is a term used by some members of the black community as well as the Latino community as a term of endearment. Youth has nothing to do with it. Blacks have been using that word with affection towards one another for YEARS. It only recenly grabbed national notice and spoltlight as elements within our culture become more and more "mainstream". The word "Nigger" is a derogatory word used to reference blacks by whites and other non-blacks. If you ask a black person who uses the term "Nigga" if they are interchangeable with "Nigger" they will tell you they are not. This is the reason some within the black community despise the word "Nigga"; they because most in the white community don't understand that "Nigga" isn't "Nigger". So they assume they mean the same thing, and then the debate over who has authority to use the word comes up. In other words: they use it so I can too.

Ha, these post are so funny. A halo car can work beautifully for Ford if they did it right. The problem is, there is no linkage between normal production vehicles and the halo, and so there is nothing to aspire to. So you don't get any 'halo effect'. For example: Lets take a top of the line flagship model for a home theater receiver. It might have every conceivable piece of tech available. And then from there, there is a step down as you go down the model chain. The next model in line might have all the same features, but no THX. The model lower than that, has everything except for DTS. And so on and so forth. Translated to vehicles. What good is a Halo vehicle if there is nothing to aspire to? You might love the GTR, but you can't afford it. So whats the next best thing? 350z. You might not be able to afford a ZR1, but the Z28 has an almost identical engine (yes it doesn't exist but I'm trying to illustrate a point). Halo cars work well win the some of the same features and technology trickle down into other vehicles. There were a lot of people who really appreciated the fact that the GT500 mill was almost identical to that of the Ford GT. Ford didn't shy away from advertising that feature either. Can't afford a GT500? But you can still afford a Ford Mustang. It trickles down, and it does mater. Who ever called the Pontiac Solstice a Halo missed the point. There was nothing technology advanced in the Solstice. It was a RWD GM roadster. Thats it. Pontiac was on its deathbed...and not much of anything was going to save it.

Let me explain something. It is very possible for a vehicle to turn a high lateral G in a skid pad test, yet still understeer wildly in real world driving. A skid pad is more a testament to a vehicles tires than anything. It does not mean that the vehicle can handle. Remember the first GT500? What kind of Gs did it pull? But how did it handle? Do you remember how high the Gs were in the old Dodge Viper? Massive sticky tires had plenty of grip. But there was no finesse in the suspension. No traction control, no anti-lock breaks. And as a result, you couldn't explore what the vehicles behaviors were like at the limit of its grip. It would sail past its limit and you would spin it out with ease. It pulled incredible Gs, but that didn't translate into its performance. The New Viper has a much more agile suspension, as testament to the its 'Ring lap. But its far more than just Gs that are contributing to that. The horsepower has nothing to do with it. Ford has been going in the direction of AWD since the Five Hundred and the first gen Fusion. They are all based on the same concept: FWD biased AWD. That is a design deficiency with any high horsepower application with a bias towards FWD. Its going to understeer and its going to torque steer. You can minimize the impact, but there will still be traces. It is what it is. Secondly, please don't begin to argue how a vehicle that does not exist will blow the doors off anything! There is no high performance Fusion in the lineup. And even such 'rumored' application will be based on the I-4 not the V6.

Nitch is a common misspelling of the word niche. Its a typo...but of course you like to entrench yourself in simple little details like that don't you. Like filler material for a commedian without any good jokes. Throws attention away from the main argument so you can mascrade as if you have something important to say. Does it make the hair on your chest stand up? Ah, no! The Chrysler 300 and its LX brothern were hardly niche product. In fact, if you look at their pre-$4 gas days sales numbers, you will see they were easily doing 10k a month sales. The LX single handily kept Chrysler relevant after it was spun off from Daimler. Chrysler went belly up because their compact and midsized sedan offerings were crap. They were balanced either. And they didn't have the kind of assets to mortgage off for Loans like Ford did. They also have no global sales to help to offset the NA market. But to make the argument that they cater to a niche market is....foolishness. Especially when the core of that argument is based on the fact that they have standardized of RWD for their large vehicles and Ford hasn't. Absolute foolishness. As i said, the Fusion already sits on a sporty chassis. But the SHO has shown there is a significant weakness of the AWD system in a performance application. Its too biased to the front to do anything more than strait line acceleration. Why try to throw 350+ lb feet of torque to a chassis that can't seem to put it down without under steer and torque steer? Mazda never intended its chassis for that, what makes you think Ford can? So let me get this right. You think the SHO can out handle a CTS in performance driving that isn't strait line acceleration? hahahahahahahahahahhahahahah. Man your funny! That was a good laugh. I 'preciate that. Made my Friday.

Then how can you explain its hiatus from 97-02. And then again in 05 to present. Sounds like off and on to me. A great argument! That is, if you think like a bean counter. There are lots of manufacturers who offer niche products for small segments. What you are not looking at is the ability of these products to boost the sales of volume lines. I'm not talking about a halo car, but there is a 'halo' effect there. I'm sure the vast majority of Honda Accords sold are not coups. Same as Nissan Altimas. But what happens is, someone might take an interest in its coup variant but decided its not for them for whatever reason. Turns out the sedan fits their needs, and opted to live vicariously through that purchase. The coup sold the sedan. The halo concept is nothing new, and you don't need a Ford GT to produce the same effect by just balancing out your offering with something across more than just feeding frenzy segments. Ah, yes Cadillacs buying demographic is certainly younger than Lincolns. There are far more young buyers looking at the CTS and the Escalade than the MKZ and the Navigator. As far as sales go, the CTS alone sold 2,383 in July. Thats more than any vehicle in Lincolns fleet. Given Fords history of building these vehicles just for them to fail and say "I told you so", you really can't argue that now can you. Name me one niche segment Ford has managed to stick with (outside the Mustang and that's because they were the only ones left). Heck, even the glorious Stang was on its way to be replaced by the Ford Probe a few years ago.