LSFan00

I know it's silly/wrong on some levels, but I hope the right Ford marketing folks catch wind of this and figure out a way to get this guy a new one. This has been everywhere for a few days down here.

So, stretched out with newer engines and either the same 1992-vintage 4-speed auto or CVT. I thought they were supposed to finally have an "all new" model ready to unveil? Should easily win the "crappiest handling sh*tbox sold in 7 figures/year globally" category, again.

But for the fact that the diesel ram 1500 launching in around 4 months will probably be around 30 MPG highway.

launching in October? Ford market research is too smart to be caught flat footed as to how this will likely be received I think. Link from Ram; The Grand Cherokee with Ecodiesel specs a towing capacity of 7400...the...powertrain delivers optimum Best-in-Class fuel economy+ with awe-inspiring performance. Combined with the advanced eight-speed automatic transmission, the 2014 Jeep® Grand Cherokee can attain up to 30 hwy mpg+, drive up to a Best-in-Class+ 730 miles on one tank+ and tow up to a Best-in-Class+ 7,400 pounds+

That steering wheel looks an awful lot like it was designed by some guy who used to do Pontiac body moulding design work in the early nineties.

Doesn't VM Motori also build engines for some Fords somewhere?

Would the Taurus be built in Asia, or are they looking at exporting RHD from NA? The present Taurus would be a quite poor Falcon competitor, I would think. Where's the next gen model being lead?

I'd just like to reiterate, again, that hybrid buyers are not the same ones, as diesel buyers. It's maybe not seem intuitive, but that's the only NA market research I have seen. They both do get better mileage than gasoline, but the different power sources seem to, in OTHER manufacturer's experiences (and this is not where I am saying what Ford should to this week or next etc.), draw from separate target customer pools.

Yep, and that was sort of my whole point. In two years this could actually happen. It's a different buyer than hybrids and a growing us market. Only question is how much growth. No need to worry about it w fiesta, or launch years on new focus/fusion, but in a couple of years would not be a surprise at all. The models are already sold with the engines elsewhere and euro 6 vs US is not that big a deal.

No, you shouldn't buy a TDI Jetta Richard. Making this an ad hominem issue against overall VW reliability is predictable. Some brands/products, when well maintained last a long time. (Others, ahem, like Mitsubishi, don't). We could discuss 800K Aerostars/Crown Vic's/Accords etc., and not have a meaningful discussion. I'm done with this one, as it's leading toward the "you can't be right, because that's not what F NA is doing right now" emotional arguments. The facts of diesel longevity vs. gasoline are pretty incontrovertible, though they have nothing to do with arguing whether either type of engine/vehicle needs to be properly maintained. You can dismiss it or research it yourself but diesels do retain value better than gasoline equivalents (and note that this is precisely because they last longer). You don't have to bash VW/Audi/Mercedes reliability to get this at this data.

I agree, and more Expeditions/Explorers will still be owned by the same person 6-8 years down the road than most Fiesta's. And the 2.0EB in the Explorer sort of begs for a diesel "green" complement.

That's not really true, as the wear on components is higher due to the greater internal speeds (RPM's). The difference as between turbo's, and DI/common rail systems are now not really present any longer vis a vis an "Ecoboost" motor vs. "Duratorq." The compression ratio's are even similar nowadays as gas has ratcheted up compression while Mazda for instance is ratcheting down compression on their diesel to avoid the pollution issues. BUT, the real difference is the power content volume; diesel has 38.6 megajoules/liter, vs. 34.6 for gas. Simply put, less energy has been refined/cracked out of the fuel.

No, most assuredly, I am not. As an example of an ICE motor comparison as far as longevity, go ahead and tell me any factual data showing gasoline lasts longer/equally to a diesel equivalent. I will just point out that for generators, and industrial applications generally (not just high torque requirements), diesel is universally preferred for longevity. One automotive piece (from a mechanic's viewpoint); A diesel engine’s life is usually around two times as long as a gas engine. This higher diesel engine life is due to the higher strength of the components used in diesel engines. Diesel fuel also has a lot better lubrication properties than gas as well and may prevent some common car repair issues seen in gasoline engines. Another viewpoint (just wikipedia).https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_engine The life of a diesel engine is generally about twice as long as that of a petrol engine[28] due to the increased strength of parts used. Diesel fuel has better lubrication properties than petrol as well.

I think there are three common fallacies on this board re: diesel cars/prices, hybrid sales etc.; 1. Hybrids and diesels go after the same focus customer set. 2. Diesel prices are 50 cents higher than gas (somewhere) and this means gasoline models cheaper fuel offsets the diesel MPG advantage. According to DOE the average last week was 3.54 vs. 3.85. That's an 8 percent difference diesel vs. gas (cowboy math, .31/3.85). The touted Cruze diesel is supposed to gain 10 MPG highway (going from 36 to 46 EPA rated). That's a roughly 21.7 percent difference. A further substantial advantage for diesel is that the engines also operate at much lower RPM's, and consequently should last several years longer. (Hybrids, contrarily, will have much lower residuals when they approach 7-8 years old as the batteries (especially in the south) will definitely be degraded substantially eventually requiring replacement.) 3. Diesel requires urea or extensive exhaust work to sell. I think the Mazda's EU ratings alone disprove that. That the Germans chose a complicated/expensive solution is neither determinative nor particularly surprising. Meanwhile, while I don't know if I would count any Chrysler as a real volume seller, they're thinking about their next gen 300 with the VM Motori Diesel. I don't still think it likely diesel in 5 years will be at 500K stateside, but I don't understand the forced poor financial/product arguments on this site, which seem merely determined to support the existing Ford position.

Ok, I'll bite. Maybe, just maybe, I would guess the prediction is that in two years, if Mazda/Chrysler-Fiat-Jeep/Germans continue to succeed, AND more light pickups also get diesel options (been rumored for all 3 major players for forever), AND Cruze does ok in sales, that GM and then Ford would be able to, as advertised/discussed re: Ford here, quickly "shift gears" and offer their global platforms with diesel options pretty quickly. (I wouldn't guess GM would as quickly, frankly). Let's assume, for the sake of argument, Focus/Fusion/Escape (or Lincoln brethren) continue to do well for the next 12-18 months. Mid-cycle how do you keep the growth trend for both? Add options/engines/drivetrains to go after other "niches." Would Ford be announcing this intention now if that were the case, or monitoring the aforementioned competitor's sales/marketing etc. quietly? The crux of the argument is really how do you go from 100K higher in 2 years, to 500K in 4-5, just a couple years later. I admit I don't get the math. It's gotta be coming from additional products, or ignorance/sheer guesses. For producers, I think it's likely they want to see more diesel sales in NA, just because again it's a byproduct anyway for them. There's surely a bias. But again, I'd take just biased sheer guesses over "Maximum Bob."

Sure, just as Bob Lutz' history of accurate prognostications/analysis whilst running a major auto company is not a predictor that his assessment of diesel is accurate. (In this thread I'd just like a reference to his last famous prediction I am aware of regarding major powertrain changes, circa 2008, when he proclaimed the "electrification of the automobile is inevitable" or some stupid crap like that. He also directed nearly-bankrupt GM's decision to import Holden's as Pontiacs. I am fairly sure XOM isn't predicting a major shift/trend change based on just the CX-5/Mazda 6.

I understand the skepticism but this is a much different (and highly praised in euro reviews) diesel motor than the German brands. I actually think it sounds like it will pass 'federalization' pretty quickly based on the specs I've read. The only (very real) concern is running the exhaust through the oil sump, which has apparently led to rising oil levels in some cars. That surely doesn't sound very good. But, hey, from the company that built rotaries for decades that burned oil at an unprecedented rate, I'm not totally surprised.

I dunno fordmantpw, but I think a substantial distribution business requires the right mix of pumps/retail/refinery set up for the two products. I get that a lot of folks hate the oil industry but Exxon doesn't really set the commodity price at all. And they do have razor thin margins so projecting the mix is of great utility/value to them. Your own notion of commodity producers having an ability to manipulate prices easily doesn't seem to make sense to me. The refinery schedule can be adjusted in a few weeks but your (theoretical) example probably indicates again that it takes time/planning to ramp their production up/down, if anything. And even then the retailers will be the ones setting final customer prices, not Exxon. Yeah, I know, hybrids get a lot of tax breaks here. But I also plan to buy that CX-5 2.2 diesel if/when they do launch it. 40+ MPG, no hybrid garbage to go bad eventually in Texas heat, and 600 miles on a tank (no urea or expensive exhaust stuff to maintain). Yes. Escape is a nice vehicle, but...

Exxon Mobil apparently thinks US Diesel sales are going to continue climbing. Just found this to be an interesting forecast, from a company with the resources and business interests to want to get projections right; A new ExxonMobil study is forecasting an increase in the demand for diesel through 2040, not only in the rest of the world but in America as well. What ExxonMobil is seeing is part of a greater trend in the auto industry; diesel sales in the U.S. rose more than 25 percent in 2012 compared with 2011. ExxonMobil projects a 65 percent spike in diesel demand between 2010 and 2040, largely driven by commercial-fleet usage. However, there has also been dramatic growth in personal diesel-vehicle sales, which has gone largely overlooked by builders still married to the idea that U.S. buyers don’t want diesel engines. Currently, diesel owns about the same market share as hybrids here in the U.S., but J.D. Power and Associates predicts that number will more than double by 2017, to 7.4 percent.

It's a lot easier to bolt aluminum panels/hood/tailgate onto a vehicle than it is to make the beams/major welds/joints out of it. We've had aluminum hoods for eons it seems like (Mark VIII?), and tailgates on trucks/SUV's for a long time too. I'm not suggesting Ford is going to do it, but I've always wondered why "work" trucks don't try to utilize the plastic panels a la Saturns of a decade plus ago. Ding-proof and lighter, and I would have to think easier to get panel gaps under an inch nowadays too.

Point taken. It's a stretch and I'm theorizing about numbers without any market research/real data. But my point remains that it is a fallacy to simply compare TDI Passat sales to hybrid Fusion sales as well. One is a very popular mainstream model and the other is the NA VW Passat. I kinda don't think the "green" lobby in the US is going to push for diesel tax credits.

Which means that proportionally, based on Ford's 30,000 Fusion sales in March, Ford could reasonably have sold around 7K diesels if 70% were otherwise conquests, and 30% were buyers that (actually) sought a Fusion but might have opted for the diesel in lieu of the hybrid or 1.6 EB. If the diesel had a similar markup as the hybrid, I do think there is a very rational argument that the business case might make sense. That VW with their limited American retail share/outlets (and, lately, dumbed down Passat/Jetta's) should be mimicked though by Ford with it's suddenly more up-market Fusion, is certainly questionable.

Yeah, and the Panther was a foolish one off platform that they foolishly kept alive for 3 decades. Now that the massive resources that heretofore had been dedicated to exclusive Mercury products can be channeled to help fill up Lincoln over the next decade, no doubt it will have a full stable by 2023.

Very short answer is no, per above. You can basically cancel until you take delivery unless you have some really odd ball order and use the deposit on another one.

Sorry, Bakken shale oil/gas boom. Pretty sure they get some gas out of that as well as sweet, beautiful crude.