blwnsmoke

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/fiat-chrysler-ceo-asks-investors-help-persuading-gm-005319260--sector.html

And this is exactly why if I have a bad buying experience at a dealer, I go to a different dealer, not a different manufacturer. I go to one dealer for my service because they take exceptional care of me (I travel 25 minutes further just to go to them from my closest dealer). But I would never step foot in their sales area to buy from them as I've had managers lie directly to my face on the sales floor.

LOL, I couldn't agree with you more!! I could not believe the electrical issues I had with my Audi A4. As much as I LOVED how the car drove, anything that had a wire attached gave us an issue. I warned my brother in law who wanted to lease a 15 Jetta TDI and had always heard me speak about the stupid gremlins in these cars. Well our first discussion about 2 weeks ago went something like this (paraphrasing) "I should have listened to you".. " windows won't roll down when I hold the handle".. "windows won't open when I touch the handle".. " mirrors won't aim down when I go in reverse".. lol, he only has 5,000 miles on the vehicle.

Who said anything about Ford should go out of business? Intact, I don't think anyone was really complaining about the recall that started this thread. The problem that I have and others should too is that this recall is NOT going to fix the problem. It is simply a "let's do the bare minimum" to try to get out of replacing steering racks that should be replaced. It didn't work in the Explorers and I am very confident it is not going to work here as well. The fact is that the uneducated (no disrespect meant) are going to get the recall notice, they will make an appt to have the reflash done because they don't have any CEL codes and then they will be sent on their way. This will not fix the possible defect and when it does rear its ugly head, the customer will then be paying for a replacement when it should have been replaced in the first place (or extend the warranty on it). It is how Ford is handling the problem, not the fact that there is a problem. As Akirby stated about being the 1st do defend Ford, I am the same way. I call people out who try to bash Ford because they just want to be a troll but this here is a serious problem that Ford is not addressing the way it should be.

They do not expire but if there are no codes, the recall states they will do a reflash. This then meets the recall requirements and Ford does not have to do anything else. If it fails in the future, recall is done, it is a customer pay repair. That is why we are both saying it is best not to have the reflash done that way Ford will have to replace it if it does fail since the recall is still open on that VIN.

2nd response from Ford http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/acms/cs/jaxrs/download/doc/UCM440364/INRL-PE12017-57026P.pdf "Ford continues to believe that loss of power steering assist in the subject vehicles does not present an unreasonable safety risk in these vehicles..." I think Ford decided to finally issue the recall because all the other manufacturers were pushing recalls left and right and while the press were on all the recalls, they slipped this one in. Why continue to deny that this is a safety issue (for several years) and then start putting out all these "safety recalls" on the EPAS systems??

I was just on the NHTSA and there are 350 complaints for "power steering" for the 11-15MY Explorers. Now I don't know how many is considered a lot but how many people don't go on forums and don't know to report an issue to the NHTSA?

We all know that people go on forums to post problems rather then praise of a vehicle so it is expected to see a lot of negative posts. But the fact that (at least Explorers) there are 966 posts with 49 pages dealing just with EPAS failures on the explorer forum.. this is a big problem. I will state that since they fixed the 3 issues above, I know the rate has dropped but it is still happening. And just because my Explorer didn't exhibit the defective flaws while under factory warranty, why should I have to pay the bill if it does show up? I fall within the date ranges BUT it just hasn't happened yet. Ford admits there were 3 issues at the time that were causing these failures. In regards to the 3 issues found during the manufacturing process, an owner should not be responsible for a failure out of pocket IMO. Ford has admitted "yup, we found 3 issues" but if the customer is outside the 3yr/36k, they are on their own. Does that really sound like the correct response from Ford (or any other manufacturer)?

So back in 2012 when everyone was complaining of the failures and Ford had a 2-3 month backorder of the EPAS replacement systems, Ford's response to the NHTSA: http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/acms/cs/jaxrs/download/doc/UCM425907/INRL-PE12017-52566.pdf 1st page - in the unlikely even of loss of power steering assist, the steering system will default to manual steering mode allowing the vehicle to be steered in a safe and controlled manner. Also that we are clearly informed of a change in the status. (both of those are a joke in my opinion). Ford's response to the issues that they found: 1) Ribbon cable conforming coating - conveyor was tilted at 3 degrees which allowed the conformal coat to run away. 2) Ribbon cable pin misalignment - because of moving equipment, the ribbon may have been misaligned during assembly. 3) Relay contacts - during cleaning process, corrosion could build up in voids between the copper and silver layers. Essentially to sum up the above 3 issues, everything produced after 5/10/2012 has had all 3 issues fixed. BUT WHY DO THESE FAILURES KEEP HAPPENING EVEN ON THE 2015 MY?? And not only that, why are they happening on more and more other models. Clearly there is something going on here.. this is more then just a coincidence. (This is their 1st response. There is another that I will post soon as I need to dig some more for it).

I think you are confusing this part in what this was referencing to. Back when the Explorers started having the EPAS failures and prior to Ford finally issuing a recall on them, Ford stated to the NHTSA that they do not consider an EPAS failure a safety issue (therefore they don't feel they should recall them) because it alerts the driver of the failure. Ford later changed their stance on it and issued a recall on the Explorers. The argument from us owners was, it does not give you a warning prior to failure, it gives you a warning when it fails therefore there is no advance warning to prepare a driver for manual assist steering. Edited: I'll post Ford's response shortly, stay tuned.

Exactly. And for clarification, I know this is what Ford has told people but this is not the case. People on the Explorer forum have had the recall done, had the failure/warning and still lost EPAS defaulting to manual mode. I believe you were part of the discussion on this a little while back and I think it was mentioned in that other thread that the reflash was supposed to prevent it from going into full failure but from owners posts, this is not the case. There are a few that had it happen about 10 months after the reflash. Here is what one member stated

You know what's very comical.. There have been hundreds of complaints to the NHTSA in regards to the Explorer failures (prior to the recall) and Ford released a response to the NHTSA that states that they do not consider it a safety issue since the vehicle resorts to manual steering (they were doing everything possible to avoid a recall). They also stated that it is not a safety issue because the vehicle alerts the driver that it is failing so it is not a surprise. LOL, that part was very comical because it's not like it says in 15 seconds, you will lose power assist steering".. When the failure alerts you, it has already failed, there is no warning. Then more and more complaints came in.. one owner ended up hitting a telephone pole because they lost steering on a bend in the road.. and now magically Ford has change their tune and consider it a safety issue. Have you tried steering one of these vehicles without EPAS working? It is extremely difficult and there are many women who have complained that they could barely move the steering wheel as if it locked up. Now I realize I'm going off topic because this isn't an Explorer recall but it looks identical to the Explorer recall. Not only that, even 2015 Explorer's have still experience these failures. So if the 2015 models are still experiencing them, then there clearly is still some sort of defect in them. Why should a 2011 or 2012 owner outside their 3yr/36k warranty be responsible for a steering rack when they are still failing on the current model year? If Ford hasn't figured out the issue, then find, so be it and state that. But do not put their customers on the hook for a very costly repair when clearly there are still issues with these units.

Again, completely agree with you as well that Ford has done this in the past. But as of now, they are not. And in the Explorer forum that I posted, people are being hit with $1,500-$1,800 repairs because the "software reflash" did not prevent the failure. Is Ford supposed to warranty it for life? Absolutely not but they should not be sticking the bill to the customer 10 months after the reflash. Hell there was one guy that had the EPAS system failure pulling out of the dealerships parking lot from having the reflash done. What did Ford say?? That the customer is responsible for the repair because no codes were present at the time of the reflash. Really?? A failure not more then 1 minute after the reflash and it is now the customer's responsibility??

Maybe I am crazy or just overlooking something but my quote from Ford's press release states the following (quote directly from press release): You are posting "depending on trouble codes from the vehicle" which is not what it says.. it says depending on whether they are found. Your quote reflects that there are codes present but it may vary on which ones pop up which is not what they are saying. It says depending on whether certain codes are found.. which translates to, there may be no codes. Now strictly my opinion but if there are no codes, Ford is going to do the reflash just like they did with the Explorer. If codes are found, they are going to replace the EPAS. Now again, this is strictly MY opinion BUT this is based on factual information from how they handled it with the Explorers. Ford had issues with electrical connections as well (harnesses as well as the boards at the wrong angle on the assembly plant which allowed the solder to drop or run down the board not securing the connection). I had discussed this in a previous thread a little while back but I'll state my opinion again. If there is physically a connection issue (wire harness, soldering etc), a software reflash is not going to solve this and still leaves a customer with a greater chance of failure then if it was built correctly to spec. They have build dates for these units so it is not like they have to extend a fix to every customer who owns the vehicles.. they should be covering the owners within those build dates though. As Akirby stated, an extended warranty on that part would do a lot for customers perception of Ford. Just like with the APIM with the 5yr unlimited mile warranty extension, they could do that as well for all the Ford owner's whose vehicles are subject to these recalls.

This right there makes 100% sense and I completely agree. A simple extension of the warranty would suffice and I think would smooth over many disgruntled customers going through this right now. Granted I have an ESP covering me to 125,000 on my Explorer BUT that doesn't mean that I don't worry about the failure of it with my wife driving with my 1 and 4 year old in the car.

1) Why is it people have to try and make lame jokes based on my screen name? 2) Did you read the article because it seems like you didn't? This is just like the Explorer recall that they had on the EPAS system. Step 1 - Recalled vehicle goes into dealership and dealer checks for codes. Step 2 - If no codes are present, they will flash with updated software. If codes are present, continue to step 3. Step 3 - EPAS system will be replaced. Straight from the article: "Dealers will perform one of two service fixes, depending upon whether certain diagnostic trouble codes are present in the vehicle. They will either update software for the power steering control module or replace the steering gear." DEPENDING UPON WHETHER CERTAIN DIAGNOSTIC TROUBLES CODES ARE PRESENT.... Guess what, if there are no codes present, the software is updated.. they are not going to replace the rack if no codes are found.. commons sense!! Jumping to conclusions?? Absolutely not.. I've seen first hand customers getting bent over by Ford because this "software reflash" is a patch job and leaves customers with a $1,800 EPAS replacement bill because the recall was already met be the reflash. People can hate on me all they want for my comments on this or try to twist my name and make ridiculous jokes but my family is a Blue Oval only family (6 Fords between my wife and I) and I take these joke repairs seriously as I have EPAS in my Explorer. And let me be clear in my beliefs.. It is one thing for Ford to say, "hey let us reflash it and if you have a failure afterwards we will replace it" but that is not how Ford has been handling it. If you get the reflash and then you have a failure AFTER, the repair is on you out of your pocket.

Yup, another recall for P/S issues where they are trying to pass this off with a reflash to avoid replacing all the steering racks. As blue as my blood is, I'm disgusted by how Ford is handling this issue. They state the problem is an electrical connection yet software is going to fix this?? Of course not because they state IF it does not fix it, replace the rack. Well duh, STOP trying to bandaid the situation and replace the racks before you continue to stick people with the bill for replacing the racks. I would HIGHLY recommend anyone who falls in with this recall to NOT get the reflash. Once reflashed with no codes stored, Ford has met their recall obligations and will stick you with the repair bill for the EPAS system to be replaced if it fails after the reflash.

2016 orders will be cut early, end of November for retooling. Job 1 on 2017s is last week of April (subject to change)

If you think the F150 is bad.. just wait till the pricing comes out for the 17 Superduty. My brother in law was looking at a 2015 XLT F250 to replace his 2008 XLT. For about the same options (he did have a manual tranny and single cab compared to the supercab he was pricing) was about $10,000 more. That's a crazy price to pay IMO over 7 years. But then again my 07 Harley 6.0 was $43k and my 15 platinum was $63k.. so a $20k increase in 8 years is CRAZY!!! But yet I still paid it. Prices on trucks is getting ridiculous and there will be a point where they are pricing them to where customers stop buying.

Odd, I thought my post went through earlier today.. There is a "lightning" version of the F150 with the 5.2 flat plane crank motor from the GT350 running around Dearborn..

http://www.blueovalforums.com/forums/index.php?/topic/58872-ford-fiesta-focus-fusion-edge-escape-f-150-lincoln-mkz-included-in-massive-recall/

Amazing.. they use a picture of the new F150 in the article despite it not being part of the "massive" recall. Only 92 affected.... https://www.yahoo.com/autos/s/ford-fiesta-focus-fusion-edge-141000941.html

Job 1 starts on Monday. Should start hitting lots I'd say 2-4 weeks later. although they have to have 5 days worth of builds before they give the ok to ship, I don't for see this being an issue since they are really only changing panels (front/rear).. nothing new under the skin.

Completely agree. I don't think many will even realize there is a new system that will be coming out or MFT is going to be dead.

Wow.. "dealer set my truck on fire".. how about "truck caught fire at dealer". You have no proof the dealer did this.... sucks but these things do happen.