Bryan1

Here's another good article on this: Ford and Ram Locked In Numbers Dispute Feuding manufacturers battle over best-in-class claims http://www.trucktrend.com/features/consumer/1409_ford_and_ram_locked_in_numbers_dispute/ More at the link: http://www.trucktrend.com/features/consumer/1409_ford_and_ram_locked_in_numbers_dispute/

Ford retains best-in-class heavy duty pickup towing despite F-450′s move to stricter standards By changing the way it measures the 2015 F-450′s payload and towing ratings, Ford has thrown the latest punch in an ongoing debate with Ram over which brand of heavy-duty pickup has best-in-class towing. Ford announced today that the newest F-450′s maximum towing rating now adheres to the SAE J2807 towing standard. Ford also announced that it would use base curb weights to determine the truck’s payload ratings moving forward. In the past, Ford has used its own methods for determining both of these ratings. The automaker was the first to determine maximum payload rating in pickups using minimum curb weight, stripping certain equipment out of its pickups in order to lower their weight and boost ratings, as Automotive News points out. When it comes to towing ratings, Ram recently adopted the J2807 towing standard across all of its 2015 trucks and GM has announced J2807-compliant ratings for the 2015 Chevrolet Silverado and GMC Sierra 1500s. Ford announced in February that the 2015 F-150 would be rated according to the standard. Unlike the F-450, Ford’s other Super Duty pickups, the F-250 and F-350, won’t follow the standard until they receive a redesign. However, a Ford spokesperson did tell Automotive News that their “maximum payloads would be restated using base curb weights.” Using the J2807 standard, the crew-cab 4×4 F-450 was actually able to retain the maximum towing rating of 31,200 pounds that Ford previously touted from internal testing. That figure is 2,200 pounds more than the truck’s closest competitor, the Ram 3500 4×4, and Ford is claiming a best-in-class rating. However, Ram previously argued that Ford can’t make that claim because technically, the F-450 is a Class 4 pickup, unlike the Class 3 Ram 3500. Despite the fact that the F-450 actually uses an F-350 frame, Class 3 pickups must have a gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) of 14,000 pounds and lower. GVWR is the max amount the vehicle can weigh and the F-450′s was higher than 14,000 pounds. In response, and as part of the migration to the J2807 standard, Ford now uses base curb weights to determine max payload which not only lowered the F-450′s max payload 150 pounds to 5,300, but also put the truck’s GVWR under 14,000 pounds. So, in the end, migrating to the stricter standards were a win-win for Ford. Not only does it put the F-450 in line with other manufacturers using the J2807 standard—thus making it easier for customer comparisons between brands—it also allows the truck to claim best-in-class towing title among Class 3 trucks. Moving to the J2807 standard also upped the F-450′s undisputed claim to best-in-class gross combined weight rating (GCWR) from 40,000 pounds to 40,400 pounds. GCWR measures the maximum amount of weight a truck can haul combining the weight of the vehicle and the trailer. “We leave no doubt with customers that the F-450 pickup truck has best-in-class towing of 31,200 pounds—whether tested using our own internal towing standards or SAE J2807,” Raj Nair, Ford’s vice president for global product development, said in a prepared statement. - See more at: http://www.equipmentworld.com/ford-retains-claim-to-best-in-class-heavy-duty-pickup-towing-despite-f-450s-move-to-stricter-standards/?utm_content=buffer5ae28&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer#sthash.bT8rf2Bs.dpuf ------------------ Ram loses, again. How long with Ram refuse to give up the title?

More: "A spokesman said today that the towing ratings for the F-250 and F-350 would not be restated under the J2807 standard until they were redesigned. But the F-250 and F-350’s maximum payloads would be restated using base curb weights." AND: "In a news release today on the F-450, Ford lowered the maximum payload of its largest pickup by 150 pounds, to 5,300 pounds. That allows the F-450 to remain under the 14,000-pound gross vehicle weight rating that defines it as a Class 3 pickup." So F-150-F-450 are all using base curb weight. And F-450 is under 14k pound GVWR making it ofiicially a Class 3. http://www.autonews.com/article/20140902/OEM04/140909982/ford-abandons-practice-of-removing-items-to-boost-heavy-duty-pickup _____________________________ Also, a new quote from Ford stating they are under 14,000 lb and Ram still refuses to give up the title: Ford says yes, obviously; "the 2015 F-450 pickup is a beefed-up F-350 with a GVWR (max the rig can weigh, not including a trailer) of under 14,000 pounds making it a Class III truck in every way." http://truckyeah.jalopnik.com/2015-ford-f-450-meets-sae-tow-standard-ram-refuses-to-1629488955

Ram's GVWR also exceeds 14,000 lb. From a post on PUTC: I went back to check Ram's 2014 tow charts. Go down to page 4 to the truck that Ram lists to tow 30,000lbs. Ram states it has a 14,000lb GVWR, but......... if you add ups it's 7,434lbs base curb weight and its rated 6,570 lbs payload then that makes 14,004 lbs. http://www.rambodybuilder.com/2014/docs/ram/rammlup3500.pdf If you build that same truck on their towing guide, then it will give you a curb weightr of 7,450lbs and a payload of 6,566 lbs. Add those up and it is 14,016 lbs. http://www.ramtrucks.com/en/towing_guide/ Why is PUTC not calling Ram out on it like they did with Ford's 14,0061 lbs with F450 after adding the curb weight and payload capacity? http://news.pickuptrucks.com/2014/08/2015-ram-hds-continue-to-boast-segment-leadership.html

"Ford previously determined F-450 pickup towing capacity using rigorous internal testing standards exclusively. Now it has added SAE J2807 test procedures, reaffirming the F-450 pickup rating. F-450 passed the additional tests with 31,200 pounds in tow, just as it passed Ford internal tests. SAE J2807 requires the vehicle to be loaded with about 400 pounds more weight than Ford’s internal test (two passengers instead of one, and base curb weight instead of minimum curb weight), but the weight addition has no effect on F-450 towing capacity. Using either standard, F-450 has best-in-class towing capacity of 31,200 pounds. Ford says it is migrating to the J2807 standard when it introduces all-new vehicles and will use base curb weight, rather than minimum curb weight, to determine payload ratings for all of its pickup trucks. The change will align Ford’s payload rating practices with other manufacturers to make it easier for customers to compare vehicles. Using base curb weight, maximum payload for the 2015 F-450 pickup goes from 5,450 pounds to 5,300 pounds." http://www.hardworkingtrucks.com/f-450-gets-best-in-class-towing-nod-using-sae-j2807-standard/ ------ Good. Now Ford can stop hearing from the GM blogs how Ford is not using J2807 (at least on F-450 & F-150) and how Ford was removing bumpers even though that was solely GM's practice and GM was going to expand it to the 1500's before GM reversed course.

Good video.

The letter, which explained Ford’s latest launch procedures, said, “Current practice is to not schedule retail orders until the early production units have passed a number of post-production quality checks. Once ‘OK to Ship’ has been received, we begin to schedule retail orders within allocation.”

Here is the deal with the Eisenhower Pass test. Ram rates that 2500 to tow 3,000 lbs more than the Ford. The whole point of that test is to see how the truck do with the tow ratings given by the manufacturer. The Ford did very well being at 90% of the GCWR that Ford rates it at, but the Ram did not fair so well at the 90% of the GCWR that Ram rates it at. Both trucks were at 90% of GCWR given by the manufacturer, yet the one given the much higher rating did a lot worse given the same test. Seems to me that PUTC was right when they stated, "It almost seemed like the gross combined weight ratings for the Ram and Chevy were a bit too high in relation to how their engines and transmissions performed." If Ram doesn't want to be more than 2 minutes behind the others towing 90% of the trucks rated GCWR, then they need to lower it's rating. The other trucks are close when towing 90% of what their manufacturer states they can, why isn't Ram? It is a good test. Either tow what you say it can or lower it's rating. Also, this kind of debunks the whole "Fords towing numbers are BS" some guys like to spew. Looks to me that they did very well doing what Ford said it could. --------- The Ford F-250's 6.2-liter V-8 did the best job of getting the truck and trailer up the hill in the shortest amount of time. Both the Chevrolet Silverado 2500 and Ram 2500 seemed capable of doing the job but not with nearly the control and power of the Ford. It almost seemed like the gross combined weight ratings for the Ram and Chevy were a bit too high in relation to how their engines and transmissions performed. Yes, all these trucks were pulling the same loads, but the Ford was the only one that pulled to the limits with confidence. We'd like to have a little more cushion or "just-in-case" buffer in the numbers. The Ford attacked the hill at a steady and easy pace, running the 7.2-mile stretch in 9 minutes and 40 seconds, while the Chevy ran almost 30 seconds behind the Ford, and the Ram lagged more than 2 minutes behind the Chevy. In fact, for most of the climb up the hill the Ram downshifted to 1st gear, spinning the engine at 4,500 rpm, marching along at less than 30 mph. http://special-reports.pickuptrucks.com/2014/08/ultimate-three-quarter-ton-hd-challenge-eisenhower-pass.html

"We now have the first interior photos of Ford's overhauled 2016/2017 Super Duty pickups, caught clean and unobstructed — including a look into the backseat area. "Recent iterations of Ford's Super Duty trucks have traditionally had a different dashboard design from its lighter-duty brethren, but there appears to be a much greater design confluence between the next-gen Super Duty models and redesigned 2015 F-150. This strategy might be a cost-cutting measure to help counteract the Super Duty's presumably more expensive all-aluminum body (although Ford execs claim that price bumps on the 2015 F-150 are due to increased content, not its new use of aluminum). Regardless, it appears that the dashboards of the Super Duty trucks are going to be closer to the F-150. "We also managed to grab a quick shot into the rear cabin area of the Super Duty prototype, and can now discern some of what is lurking beneath all of that heavy camouflage. We can see that the crew cab will get a slight kick-up at the base of the rear-side-window, resembling a similar design flourish found on the new F-150. It also appears that the prototype's C-pillar is thicker than on the current Super Duty, suggesting potentially greater cab volume to rival Ram's Mega Cab." link to photos: http://news.pickuptrucks.com/2014/08/spied-20162017-ford-super-duty-interiors.html

Auto News is reporting: GM gives in and to stop using the empty space tactic to boost published payloads... August 8, 2014 GM to stop removing truck parts to maximize payload ratings Ford said it excluded items to calculate payloads on just its Super Duty pickups -- the F-250, F-350 and F-450. GM excluded items on its light-duty pickups starting in the 2014 model year. It excluded items in heavy-duty lines starting in the 2015 model year. “As this story unfolded, we took a look at how the whole industry does this, and almost everybody uses base curb weight,” GM spokesman Tom Wilkinson said. “We thought the best thing to do was line up with the rest of the industry to make those comparisons as easy as possible for consumers.” For the 2015 Chevrolet Colorado and Silverado 1500 and the GMC Canyon and Sierra 1500, which go into production in the fourth quarter, GM will use “maximum payloads based on base curb weights” in its advertising, catalogs and media materials. GM also will update already-published specifications for its 2015 heavy-duty pickups to show payload ratings based on their base curb weights. The trucks were launched in January. GM’s reversal was first reported earlier today by Yahoo Autos. Ford has said that it deletes the weight of items such as the spare tire, jack, radio and center console to set the payloads only on its Super Duty pickups. “We have made no changes to the way we determine maximum payload ratings for Ford F-Series Super Duty,” a Ford spokesman said today. Pickup rivals Ram, Toyota and Nissan rely on standard base curb weights to establish their payload capacities, without subtractions, the automakers have said. Wilkinson emphasized that automakers' published maximum-payload ratings are for comparison purposes only. Truck owners should refer to the tire and load information label on the door frame, which gives a vehicle-specific rating based on the truck’s options, GM said. Maximum payload is the weight of all that a pickup carries, including passengers and cargo. When automakers subtract items from a vehicle’s curb weight, that allows them to state a higher maximum payload. http://www.autonews.com/article/20140808/RETAIL03/140809807/gm-to-stop-removing-truck-parts-to-maximize-payload-ratings

I'd like to know how the car expects know what we're hauling. Are they stalking us? Can they see a load under a tonneau cover? Are the car expert's cars and boats too big? The car experts may need to downsize their boat to a dinghy because that's all they need.

Exactly. To borrow from another site on how a truck person thinks: People who are experts on cars insist that the average truck owner doesn’t need the capabilities of the truck they drive and they're "too big." Citing studies and market research (such as "we all know") as ‘proof’ that truck buyers really don’t need to tow or haul a huge payload, these car experts determined that a small truck would be more than adequate for the average truck owner. Unfortunately, car experts just don’t get it – it’s true that most trucks are rarely pushed to their physical limits. However, that’s by design. If a ‘truck person’ needs to tow 5k lbs on a regular basis, he or she will buy a full size because they want the extra capacity just in case. If they tow 10k lbs on a regular basis, they go and buy a SuperDuty. Sure – a Taco will tow 5k just fine and a Tundra will tow 10k with a power to spare – but truck people aren’t interested in buying a truck they have to worry about maxing out. By buying a little bigger than we need, we guarantee our trucks are never pushed too far and we never worry about being in a situation we can’t handle.

The aluminum wheels would be added equipment. Name the added equipment when you remove the bumper.

The bumper that was left completely exposed after the fire is the current bumper, suggesting this is not the next gen body that we have been seeing under the camo. It's still a mule.

GM just made another revelation today and is in full reversal mode again. GM will now remove the bumpers and tire to come up with the payload figures for the 2015 half tons. The GM spokesperson says this new practice was done because of what Ford is using (aluminum body?) and keeping it "apples to apples." But Ford and Ram say they don't do deletes on half-tons. -------------- PAYLOAD 'GAMESMANSHIP' Ford, GM play with numbers for bragging rights The company says it will broaden the practice for the 2015 model year to its light-duty full-sized pickups. The GM spokesman said the automaker adopted the practice "because we saw what the competition was using." He said: "It was done to keep comparisons apples-to-apples when we launched the new trucks." The competitor was Ford, the spokesman said. http://www.autonews.com/article/20140804/OEM/308049927/ford-gm-play-with-numbers-for-bragging-rights For much of the past two weeks, Ford has said it used the practice to set maximum payloads across its top-selling F-series pickup lineup. However, on Thursday, July 31, Ford said it deletes the weight of items such as the spare tire, jack, radio and center console to set the payloads only on its Super Duty pickups: the F-250, F-350 and F-450. For the F-150, Ford now says, it has always used the base curb weight. "It's gamesmanship, with manufacturers trying to be the king of the hill," said Mitchell Dale, a Ford dealer in metropolitan Houston. "Quite frankly, it could drive a concern about confidence when they play games like this."

I'll agree that in a way they aren't contradicting the document becaues it will show up on the window sticker under optional equipment. But in another way they are contradicting the definition of added weight, added equipment and common sense. On your link it defines "option weight" as: "the weight of any added equipment." What equipment or weight was added to the truck by removing the spare tire? How much equipment was added by removing the jack and what was the weight of this added equipment? Real weight, not negative weight.

There is no consistency between how they calculate the curb weight with standard parts and how they calculate the curb weight right before they weigh for Max Payload. Max Payload is defined as the weight of "optional equipment." Ok. Who defines removing standard parts as equipment? That is removing parts. Not optional "equipment" being added to the weight. Earlier they define option weight as equipment added. Therefore removing should not count as adding. In one of the articles ML says Ford removes the jack, spare tire, wheel, and radio from all F-Series. I don't see any of those options on the F-150 order guide. In a reversal, I see that they only remove pats from HD trucks. So that is one good thing.

What yo think should happen and what they say they are doing two different things. The issue is it says curb weight is "with standard equipment" and "DOES NOT INCLUDE OPTIONAL EQUIPMENT" and "option weight is NOT used in the base curb weight." I don't recommend fudging the numbers like this but if they continue this practice of removing various standard items or adding in optional equipment wheneve they choose, it needs to state option weight IS used, and curb weight is not be determined by standard equipment. Also be consistant and update the guides, GM, don't say front and rear bumper and spare tire is standard in one area, and then say because it can be removed it is "optional" and doesn't have to be included before you weigh it and you can boost the advertised Max Payload by 200 lbs.

You don't understand how the advertised Max Payload works and it's not my argument. It says right in the guide that base curb weight is without options. This is what is supposed to be used establish the advertised Max Payload that they post online and in the guides. But GM for instance, adds optional wheels when it weighs them for the curb weight or deletes heavy standard options to get a lighter curb weight and boost the advertised Max Payload. You can't state curb weight is established with standard quipment without options, but then add in options or delete standard equipment before you weigh it just so you can take that curb weight to get the highest possible payload. Then advertise that number as with standard equipment without options. This is false advertising. I hope this is more clear.

Stick to what you know. You have it wrong. Base curb weight is with standard equipment WITHOUT options. Option weight is not included in base curb weight. The curb weight is what is used to establish payload. Read the PDF. But behind the scenes they do it differently to lower curb weight with options and thus boost the payload. For instance, GM will swap out the heavier standard wheels with lighter optional wheels, but if the standard equipment is lighter than the option, they go with the stanard equipment or chuck it altogether, like with the bumpers. By using optional equipment or deleting standard equipment, it has less curb weight and can increase payloads dishonestly.

The Ford pdf link that Richard gives states that the curb weight is the weight of the vehicle including standard equipment. The tire and jack are standard equipment on the Fords, and the tire/jack/bumpers are standard equipment on the GM's. Read all over their sites, these are standard items. If they boosting the payload by chucking these items to establish a lower curb rate and thus a higher payload Ford and GM are out of line. Deleting the center console from all curb weights on the F-150 is shameful too as the center section delete is only for an XL special service vehicle, all other trucks will have a center seat or console. GM also swaps out the STANDARD heavier steel wheels for the optional lighter alloy wheels. Can't have it both ways. Are you going by the stanard equipment or whatever option is lighter or can be removed? This is shameful.

I didn't see any 1500 rear bumper delete, but I did see a bumper delete on a 2500 for fleets but the bumper is still standard equipment. http://www.gmfleet.com/chevrolet/silverado-1500-truck/features-specs/trims.html I have found the tire and tire carrier on a half-ton can be deleted by fleets, but is still standard equipment for fleets. You can also remove all of the ornamentation. There is also a pickup box delete for fleets for 2500's. The box is standard, but because some 2500's can have the boxes removed, is that how the weight should be reported for all? The question is should you base weight on standard equipment, or whichever way a fleet buyer can build it the lightest even if it means removing standard equipment that 99% (including fleet buyers) are going to have on the truck?

Forget what the fleets may or cannot do. It is standard equipment for you and me. 2015 Silverado 1500: front and rear bumpers and full-size tire standard. http://eogld.cloud.gm.com/NASApp/domestic/proddesc.jsp?year=2015&regionID=1&divisionID=1&type=0&vehicleID=16823&section=oi_def&page=7&butID=16 Why should GM, Ford, or anyone delete standard equipment to get payload?

You can order a new Chevy half-ton without a rear bumper? That is news to me. Front and rear bumpers are standard equipment. Even if it was some crazy fleet option, removing the bumpers and spare tire to get the desired payload doesn't seem logical becaues you're going to have to put it back anyway.