Bob Rosadini

On another thought, what about trucks? Fiat through Iveco is a big producer -of trucks as well as diesels. there are those that say Ford will have to partner with someone to survive in class 6 and 7. Could that enter the equation? Iveco is actively pushing their diesels to others. So perhaps there is some opportunity for both here- Ford does something for them in terms of passenger vehicle production, and Fiat (Iveco) does soemthing for Ford with a "proprietary" six cylinder engine and some engineering help for an eventual return to class 8. I think that Iveco currently builds largetrucks for Ford in Turkey. Jist another thought.

With all respects- you talk about your .."Dad has a customer who has a Sterling etc." Keep in mind there are some truck people who have been on this site for a long time. Again I say .."truck people" I was signing my name on purchase orders -and occasionally driving them-for Louisvilles before you were born. A couple of points. Freightliner's market share is not because they are the "cheapest truck in price and quality". When Hebe was the president, they bought market share- in particular with huge deals for hundreds even thousands of units-but that is another story. I don't thik that is the case anymore. What is Freightliner- or should I say Daimler? They are aggressive and focused on the business. But that is not what this thread is about. Its about Toyota. And my reference to Hino is that they will be tough because Toyota does not play to lose. Hino is not at this point looking at class 8. They are looking at 6 and 7. Have you talked to anyone who runs Hino's? I'm sure the answer is no. But if you do, you will find they are very satisfied. And once Toyota gets their act together with the Tundra, they will do what is logical- move up the food chain into class 3 and 4 while Hino drops down into 5 etc. Oh and as to your point about Ford losing market share because they had an "old truck", -it was. but they were always a solid 8-10% of class 8 and a solid second in class 7-to Navistar. Ford Spent millions redesigning the Louisville- and then gave it away to Daimler for 300million bucks. Why? Because the likes of Jac Nassar saw bigger bucks in turning KTP into a giant pick up truck plant. The thought of all that volume won out. Keep in mind KTP was the largest heavy truck plant in the world when it opened in 69. Could other plants have been coverted to efficient light truck production? I'm sure they could have. Think about it. It cost millions to redesign the Louisville. the business had to have been studied to death before the decision to go for it wss made. then within a year after it came out (HN-80), the decion is made to give the business away. What changed? Nassar and his short term profit clique were in control. Oh and if you are implying that Roger Penske is backing Hino because he can get "cheap trucks",I think he is a bit smarter then that. "Cheap trucks" won't survive in the commercial world- good trucks will.

7M3- I do beleive we had a bunch of DM-400's with Scania's and Allisons! Talk about underpowered. And thats right 400's. I don't think they were 600's And to go back to VW, did they not build that small cab over that KW and Pete sold for awhile? I think they were built in SA- Argentina perhaps?

JOE- A LOT MORE. For sure I will get flammed on this --"no profitability blah blah." But someone should tell Volvo, and Freightliner and Hino..."that you can't make money building big trucks".

Like I said- it was a "finger in the water". Isn't that one of the things SEMA does? Is it a production vehicle? Nope! Does it have a HD motor?- Yes! Is it intendeed to get reaction? You bet. Again, to those who want to stick your heads in the sand? Go ahead. The point is Toyota and Hino can very easily make the jump DOWN from class 6 and 7 and UP from class 1 and 2. Are they not formidable in everything they have done. Let's not rush to judgement on the merits of the current Tundra. I'm as much a Ford guy as ANYONE who posts here. And a stockholder. I myself think they are getting closer and closer to taking another market (commercial trucks) away from Ford- or at least putting a big dent in Fords 50% market share of commercial truicks (class 3-7) And to further scare you, Daimler has created a special marketing group to go after that segment. Once again, Freightliner can take the Business Class down a step or two, The Sprinter canmove upwards, and Sterling with its Dodge derived Bullet is moving quickly into 350-450-550 territory. One scary observation, if you get any of the monthly truck want ad rags, you are seeing more and more Sterling-Ford dealerships advertising Bullets (with its Cummins) as opposed to advertising comparable Fords that they sell. Its not my imagination. If you are not in the trucking business, you won't get those rags in your mailbox. If you do, you will see what I'm talking about.

This truck should scare the hell out of Ford. Its a finger checking the temp of the water. If anyone thinks Hino is not a threat, they don't know what they are talking about. Hino in my book is the new Freightliner of this age. To you "kids" who weren't around when Daimler bought Freightliner, Ford and International OWNED class 7. Freightliner was a bit player in class 8. Look at them today. Hino will make huge inroads in class 6 and 7 aND this little "experiment" at SEMA is the tip of the iceberg. If you think it isn't, you don't understand Toyota's mindset. Oh and don't forget, Roger Penske is getting his beak wet on the Hino deal. Think Roger ever backed a loser? Idiots -make that IDIOTS- at Ford, wake up!

What is this? Confirmation that CR's staff has their collective heads very far up their collective ass holes! My 07 CV Sport gets a consistant 22-23 mpg in mixed driving. I must be confused, I'm 6-2, 220, and when I do a 500 mile day in it, I find I'm not beat at the end of the day. Side air bags? Nope. But as someone correctly pointed out, what about all the crash test it excells in. Trust me, if I had to take a hit, I'd rather be in a BOF Panther then some FWD unibody cheese box. Bottom line these guys (or "girls") at CR wouldn't recognize good value if it hit them between the eyes.

&mary- You are right- Idid post something the other day to the effect that the 550 has a max gvw of 19,000lbs.- at least I think it was on this thread- its a bitch getting old! As for the suit, hard to believe these two can't come to some resolution- As always, the only winners will be the lawyers. On another note, did you see Daimler has formed a special "commercial truck" marketing group to target I assume class 3 to 5? They will be tough- unlike the idiots at Ford. Did you see the newest addition of "Work Truck"? There is a cover story on Super Duty with a picture of a 750. Does the article say anything about 650/750? Nope! As a matter of fact, it only mentions 250, 350 and 450! Do you conclude from this that they truly are downplaying the class 6/7's because they will in fact fold their tent? Or is because they are that stupid and some marketing genius says "Work truck" is the wrong venue for 650/750??? If you are offered a cover story, why wouldn't you cover your entire product mix?? Amazing

As the former owner of an 89 Super Cab 4 x 4 that a buddy of mine is now pushing 200,000 on and the owner of an 04 Super Cab FX 4 level II, I can only hope. In the meantime Mahindra annouced they would be building a diesel compact pick up in Ohio next year. We can only hope Mulaly recognizes he has idiots as product planners who wouldn't recognize a market if it hit them between the eyes. Ranger? how many short years ago was it one of the top 10 sales leaders in the US???

If I had to guess, I would say it was a manufacturing issue. E's are built in Ohio right? so they had a line at KTP that was receiving E cabs and dropping on a 550 chassis. Plus with the commitment to build the LCF with is V-6 P'stroke, I would bet International leaned on them as they wanted to jump into the LCF class and Ford of course was not going to build E-550's for them. By the way, looks like you are correct on the 550 numbers being in class 6. HDT's 07 YTD totals for 6 and 7 are 19,858 units. Per Richards suggestion, looking at the stats on BON they list 11,782 "heavy trucks and 3576 LCF's for a total of 14,858 or a difference of 5000. Then again, I find it hard to beleive that they built only 5000 550-s. I see a ton of them on a regular basis.

Big Mack, Welcone to BON. In addition to being a Ford nut, I'm also a Mack nut! Make that Old Mack nut. I have two B Models, a 1960 and a 63. These were true Macks- engine transmissions and rears. In the old days, that was the reason to buy a Mack- it was a truly integrated truck. Of late, the Bulldog has been dragging around a lot of baggage. You wouldn't believe the vocational fleets here in the Northeast that were nothing but Mack in the old days, are now buying Petes, KW's, Internationals, Volvos etc. My company has a unit that is pretty much standardizing now on Volvo tractors. On another note, as far as construction equipment, you won't hear much negativity about Volvo's machines. Good luck in any case. Sounds like you have a great opportunity- learn all you can and don't be afraid to talk to the oldboys with a lttle gray hair. Nothing like experience.

You are 100% correct on the E-550. It was a good seller and gaining ground. Friend of mine was managing a big Sterling Ford store when they dropped it and he was disappointed as they had made sales, the customers loved the truck and they were looking at repeat sales. Oh as to someone's comment that .. a 24,000 lb towing capacity is not a "Heavy Duty Truc"- its not -we are talking about "Heavy Duty Trucks as in class 8- not pick up trucks. Don't confuse "heavy duty" as a marketing term vs "heavy Duty" as a GVW classification.

That is a good point. It then becomes a matter of checking the class 6 and 7 sales figures as reported vs Ford's "Heavy Truck" numbers same period. If 7Mary is correct, then the higher class 6,7 numbers as reported in the trade press will in fact be 550 sales. 7Mary- Ford does advertise 650/750 in two heavy construction mags I get- Construction Equipment and Equipment Today. For the last two years they run copy featuring a 750 dump. Kind of short on technical merits although they talk about its available 14,000 lb front axle, bolted frame and a few other goodies. Still, the "hairdresser" mentality comes out. Istead of showing the truck with a premium dump body, complete with auto load cover etc, they show it with a cheesy body and in fact, it has the tail gate release handle on the curb side! I have a son in the printing business and he explained how some technical aberation like that can happen but to me it shows a lack of attention to detail, indifference, or stupidity- or most likely all three. Pisses me off- In pariticular when my share basis is close to 23 bucks! But what treally frosts my ass is when you look at the push Hino is putting on. Ford has the beachead and the question is will they surrender another product to Toyota. And we all know, Toyota can put a set of good looking wheels on a milk crate and it will get rave reviews! You can bet your ass while some idiot at Ford is making speeches about ..."focusing on our core business", Hino/Toyota will say..."thank you very much- we will take your non core business and WE will make money at it- in spite of the fact we have no dealer base".

Ah 7 Mary. The glass is always half empty! Perhaps you are right about 550- I actually never thought about 550 being a class 6. Let's see, you are a GMC salesman in disguise right? You say the 750 is a "pick up cab" on a medium chassis yet the GMC is a van cab on a medium chassis- so what's the diference? I personally think the visibility in the GM's sucks with that 30" of flat dash panel in front of you- or so it seems. Again - perception. To support your GM bias, no doubt they are better marketers- just look at the GM web site for mediums and then look at Ford's. Ford needs to clean house and get some truck people in medium truck marketing. But Joe, I agree with you. They have good numbers and they don't try- they are brain dead. look at their marketing. They spend money in Heavy Duty Trucking and what is their add copy? A 450 dually pick up! Why spend money advertising a pick up truck in mag whose mere title implies "heavy duty"? I get a couple of mags that cater to the fuel oil business. Freightliner like clockwork has specific ads that show a 33,000 gvw F'liner equipped with a 2800 gallon tank- the std "tax cheater" in the residential oil delivery business. Ford owned that market in the old days with C series and LN's and even F-800's and 8000's. The 750 specs will work. this was a market they owned! Do they advertise? Nope On another advertising note, Light and Medium Truck Mag also caters to the utility industry. 750's are a very popular truck at least in New England with several utilities as big bucket trucks. What does Ford advertise in that mag? F-350's with 10' boxes! They don't even advertise the LCF. Which on second thought, says that ay be a dead duck in anycase if Bluediamond goes away.

Thx for the update- if someone should know you would think a guy such as your buddy would have some sort of inside track on the rumor mill. As for the GM/International thing, I still say it reminds me of what happened to the GM class 8's with "WhiteGMC" As someone explained to me, it was a gimmick to keep GM from being sued in the short term. Think of the devaluation of a franchise if all of a sudden your supplier says..."by the way, in x months you no longer will have a product line to sell."

Well I have to disagree with you big time here. Ford built this truck from 2000 to 2003 in their plant in Cautillan Mexico. So what's the big deal? Did they throw the prints away? And as others have pointed out, its not exactly rocket science. How much did it cost to engineer the Ford GT-40- excuse me Ford GT? A 1000 "halo" car project! And as for your comment on Hino not being a new effort as they are big world wide, I don't beleive they have ever built a conventional such as they are building in this country. And more importantly, my point is, Hino (Toyota) has the nerve to jump into this market from scratch. I don't care how many trucks they sell in the rest of the world, they think there is a good business case to go after this market in this country- with no customer base and no dealer base. The point is Ford is the commercial truck leader in class 4-7. They should walk away from this? More defeatist bullshit!

"Working on it" to the degree it will be built in this country, in a Navistar plant, by the end of the year!

Richard- Why ae you forgetting KTP? It was the biggest HD truck plant in the world when it was opened in 69. I've also been told by KTP people that they in fact have an extra line available. But whatever- It WAS a heavy truck plant and was reconfigured to build Super Duty in 98. seems logical it would go back. And you and 7 Mary are right of course- big question is what happens to 650/750 as Bluediamond falls apart. Logic says it goes back to Cautilan where it was built when it first came out in 2000 but again, in spite of the labor advantage, there has to be some big cost shipping the cabs to Mexico ( I assume 650/750 cabs are built or stamped at KTP?) and then the freight in shipping the finished truck back North. As for dropping 650/750, Ford is the market leader by a huge margin in 4- 7 trucks. Why would they quit? Now I know someone will say .."they can't make money" or .."its not a core business" but I say that is bullshit. Toyota is starting from scratch building Hino 6 and 7 trucks in this country. From scratch! And Ford can't compete when they have a legacy in the business?????

Edstock. A gold bulldog signified truck was powered by a Maxidyne engine which Mack introduced in 66/67. It was a departure in engine design as it was mated to a five speed (six for off road use) and had a broad usefull rpm band- you lugged it down to 1200 RPMs before downshifting. A silver dog was a non -Maxidyne Mack engine - or it could have been a vendor engine.

Well for those of you who read these forums and have an interest in big trucks, Friday I believe marks the end of the no compete that was established as a part of the deal when the Trotman/Nassar clique gave the big truck business away to Daimler. Much has been said about the likelihood of Ford jumping back into class 8 or even "baby eights" (tandem 750) but I was thinking that a couple of thigs have been changing rapidly over the last couple of years. It seams that the trend in big trucks is going back to some degree of vertical integration- at least as far as engines go. Remember the old days when a Mack was truly a Mack and even a GM with a Detroit in it was a GM. Well look around- Sterling/Fr'liner/W'Star will have Mercedes, Mack/Volvo will have Volvo, Paccar will have their DAF conection. Navistar will have their MaxForce/MAN connection. What volume does that leave for Cat and Cummins.? Maybe survival for these two might mean some sort of partnership with someone else????? Just a thought.

My two cents. I guess I truly am a loser. I have an 07 CV Sport that is great and an 04 Ranger Super Cab FX4,Level II. Both great vehicles that the brilliant planners have banished from the future product slate. And the sad fact is, both could be revived without spending a fortune. I've posted may times about the great MPG of my CV, its comfort and its reliability. The one it replaced had 216,000 and was bought in two hours after the want ad rag hit the newstand. It was going oversees so the ramp truck driver said who picked it up. As for the Ranger, its as everyone has previously described. Great value for someone who wants the convenience of a pick up without paying the price of a 150-or Ram -or Silverado. It replaced an 89 that I bought with 47,000 on it and on which my two sons learned how to drive a stick through high school, then they both took it to college ad with almost 200,000 on it, I gave it to friend who replaced the auto hubs with manuals, changed the dome cover gaskets and its still going strong. Also, key point, how many years ago was it one of the top 10 sellers in the US? Not that many. My only hope is that unlike the idiots who have been calling the shots, Mulally is reviewing a lot of recent decisions and is asking the kind of questions that will produce answers that seem so obvious to many of us. If he can salvage 20 years of name recognition with the Taurus, maybe its not too late to reverse some of these other dumb moves. Why give up on segments you've owned???

Anyone's guess but given the fact that Ford IS the commercial truck leader, I find it hard to believe they would give up any segment. Give up 650/750 and the next thing you know Hino/Freightliner are nibbling at 550, then 450 sales. I think a key issue will be can they incorporate production into KTP. Assuming they are trucking/railing the cabs to Mexico now, and given freight alone in bringing finished units up. maybe all the other cost penalties will be slightly off set. Other side of the coin, they built 650/750 before i the Ford plant at Cautilan so maybe they can move it back there. Again when I look at what Ford's market share was in the old days in class 7, I shake my head. And class 8 was certainly better then what Sterling has managed to accomplish today. Ok all of you who say Ford never made any money in big trucks, flame away. but while you are at it, you better send an a few e-mails to Toyota (Hino) and F'liner and tell them they are losing their ass! And by the way, on your Hino e-mail, copy Roger Penske because as smart a guy as he is, he hasn't figured out yet that backing Hino in their push to be a player in class 6 and 7 is going to cost him his fortune!

I'm amazed this hasn't happened sooner. When you think of the strides made in electronic control of everything and the parasitic loss that has to exist around a camshaft actuated valve system, its seems its a worthwhile objective that will pay off big time.

Good point-which is what I thought this thread was all about before we started talking about Accuras! Also as someone else pointed out who seemed to have some KTP knowledge, on whatever line /process the Excursion was built, some potential exists. Think about what KTP was during the old days- the largest heavy duty truck plant in the world Building vehicles as diverse as the C series cabover, the high tilts (W's then CL's,) F series, and of course Louisvilles. One other point that you made, I would bet that the bulk of KTP's Super Duty production is truly commercial- not the 150 "FX-4" Off rd pkg! Real question in my mind is, in this day when commonality of components can be truly beneficial, how can you justify a separate cab structure for 150 and SD? If the cab structure was combined what kind of efficiencies would that produce? Perhaps that might figure into the F-100 equation as well. Last point, while you make valid points about the CAFE issue, I hate to sound like a broken record but my 07 CV Sport with 3.27 gears and its antiquated 4 speed,gets a solid 22-23+ mpg. Right now with snows on it and five concrete blocks in the trunk-I live in snow country- its showing 21.5-22. Chop a foot of overhang off each end, throw a 5 or speed in it, and what would it get? Not the best but there will be a market for such vehicles- IMO And for those who hate Panthers- fine stretch the Mustang platform. Although I do like a frame- but again I date myself!