Ford will import the mondeo, S-Max, and galaxy.

[RichardJensen]

 

You don't have to cross an ocean to find design precedents for the Taurus.

 

Black out the B & C pillars on the Tempo and you're there.

[BlackHorse]

The 1986 Ford Taurus was a very important and successful mid-size sedan. It introduced a radical new European design philosophy typified by the aerodynamic Audi 5000 to the United States.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Taurus

 

I've looked at several sources about the history of the early Taurus Richard and all of them say the same thing. It was designed after the Audi 5000. I couldn't find anything that jives with your version of events. They designed after the Audi bud. The European Audi. Sorry that's just the way it happened.

[RichardJensen]

all of them say the same thing. It was designed after the Audi 5000.

A lot of commentators have noticed a similarity. A few have gone so far as to suggest that it was benchmarked, or in some other way copied.

 

Existing documentary evidence, and interviews with people at Ford during the Taurus' development have never supported the assertion.

 

There is a line between observing similarities between objects, and establishing a connection between them.

 

This animal is not a cat. It is not part of the cat family. But it looks like one.

[BlackHorse]

Then you should have no problem providing some sort of link to justify this story that it really wasn't designed after the Audi but instead an all Ford design as you claim. You know if someone else made a claim like that around here when the rest of established historical account says something entirely different you would be all over them man and you know you would. Come on. For all I know the Tempo could be based after the Audi as well.

[goingincirclez]

Then you should have no problem providing some sort of link to justify this story that it really wasn't designed after the Audi but instead an all Ford design as you claim. You know if someone else made a claim like that around here when the rest of established historical account says something entirely different you would be all over them man and you know you would. Come on. For all I know the Tempo could be based after the Audi as well.

 

 

Ha ha... I believe I was the first to say the same thing (hell, even stole the same pics off the 'net) on this forum a few months ago, as seen IN THIS TOPIC (CLICKY)

 

And yeah, I got chased a bit

 

Personally, I still think the Tempo was the inspiration. It came out at the same time as the Audi... and the Audi was far more box-like. Yeah Yeah Yeah I know that "the press" says Ford aped Audi, but whatever. To me, it's foolish to overlook the Tempo. Put the 1986 Taurus between the two, and tell me which one it most looks like.

 

PS: Hi Sixcav!

[BlackHorse]

Everyone believes what they believe. I've always heard the Taurus was based after the Audi 5000. Have no reason to believe otherwise. If you guys can come up with some historical account that proves that's not the case I'll be glad to go along with that. But until then I have to take the word of the established historical account. At any rate we got off track here a little and who is Sixcav?

[RichardJensen]

http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/052...3869999-6305208

 

You really should pick up a copy. Especially at these prices.

 

This is the definitive work on the subject.

 

Most of the innovations appearing on the Audi 5000 were simultaneously seen on the Ford T-bird (integrated bumper assembly, blackout trim, flush glass), flush headlights were first seen on the '84 Mk VII, and so most of the stuff that Ford allegedly copied from Audi already had antecedents in the Ford design studios. Cross pollination from auto shows is certainly a possibility, but I haven't seen anyone from either Ford or Audi acknowledge it.

 

Had the Taurus appeared without the Tempo, Thunderbird, and Mark VII preceding it, yeah, one might argue that they ripped off Audi--but when you combine the innovations of all three of those vehicles, and remove the grille: you've got the Taurus, pretty much.

 

Ironically, where Ford DID borrow heavily from Audi and Mercedes (and which they acknowledge doing) was on the interior of the Taurus. An area seldom mentioned for comparison.

Edited February 14, 2007 by RichardJensen

[matthewq4b]

The Taurus Tempo And to some degree the T-Bird Cougar were all based on Euro styling trends of the time. Any one that tries to argue different is smoking crack. They may have not out right copied any single car, but they sure as the hell followed the design path laid out in the EU years prior. Remember the Merkur Scorpio damn near a clone of the Sable, or is it vice versa?

 

The Taurus and Sable (more so the Sable) took the EU design cues started with the T Bird and Tempo and took them to their full potential in a NA designed platform.

 

Those cars were EU inspired. Simple as that.

 

hell as it was noted the goofy Sable cooling system was even EU based the EU stuff of the time all had those strange little bypass hoses and separate reservoirs

 

If the Mondeo is imported as a Merc and gains any thing but a total flop then it solves a couple problems. What to do with Merc, and what to do with the new Global based Ford.

 

And yes Richard is right in saying a Main stream NA sedan does need to be NA styled in side and out.

 

But such is not the case with Mercury. Mercury is is never going to be or should be the mainstream name plate. Merc Buyers have always been a little more.....shall we say.... eccentric.

 

If the Mondeo came here now as a Merc and succeeded then with the Global Ford NA sedan replacement you do with NA Spec interiors and Sheet metal. The Merc on the other hand can use the Euro sheet metal and interiors.

 

This would Give Ford 2 similar sedans with totally different personalities. Your covering more bases with little or no extra investment.

 

This will not add any measurable cost to Mercury products. And allow merc to demand a premium over the Fords to help cover the lower production numbers. And finally Merc will be more than a Ford with a different header panel and interior wood accents. Some thing Merc's have been for way to long.

 

 

Matthew

Edited February 14, 2007 by matthewq4b

[one2gamble]

Everyone believes what they believe. I've always heard the Taurus was based after the Audi 5000. Have no reason to believe otherwise.

 

 

I wish Ford could copy a design that quickly. Hell it even takes the almighty Toyota longer than that to copy other peoples designs.

[BlackHorse]

Clearly nobody is going to win the which "european sedan came first" argument. I checked out your link Richard, I'll see if I can find a copy of that book, it never hurts to learn more history. But seriously we got off track here. I still think the Mondeo Mercury idea that matthewq put forward is a good idea.

[RichardJensen]

Neat pics here:

 

http://www.carstyling.ru/car.asp?id=2274

 

The Ford Probe III, basis for the Sierra and the NA aero Fords.

[RichardJensen]

Clearly nobody is going to win the which "european sedan came first" argument. I checked out your link Richard, I'll see if I can find a copy of that book, it never hurts to learn more history. But seriously we got off track here. I still think the Mondeo Mercury idea that matthewq put forward is a good idea.

It's something to consider come the EUCD/CD3 merger.

 

Provided U.S. customer input is solicited.

 

BTW, buy a copy of the book dangit!! It's like $4.00, and if you've read all of the crap I've written on this forum (as well as everybody else's), you might as well get some quality reading in as well!!

Edited February 14, 2007 by RichardJensen

[one2gamble]

It's something to consider come the EUCD/CD3 merger.

 

 

Theres no rational reason to wait. Test the waters by importing 10-15k Mondeo's as Milans and then alter the manufacturing of Hermo to reflect the lack of milans being produced.. Ford isnt going to take a bath with those numbers either way and it would leave open a higher trim level for the Fusion.

[matthewq4b]

Neat pics here:

 

http://www.carstyling.ru/car.asp?id=2274

 

The Ford Probe III, basis for the Sierra and the NA aero Fords.

 

 

Not sure you could call the Probe III a concept. It was more of a teaser as the Seirra debuted for the 1982 modle year in the EU sporting that almost exact same body.

 

Just goes to reinforce the Taurus and Sable are and were EU inspired designs.

 

 

Matthew

[one2gamble]

The foci started off as this?

 

http://www.carstyling.ru/car.asp?id=1194

 

lol...interesting

[BlackHorse]

I'll buy the book, but lets be honest, quality reading is the articles in Maxim. lol Seriously though, I always really liked the Probe and I was very upset to see it let go. Also I looked at the interior photos of that 1982 probe concept and I believe that interior console ended up in the first gen Eclipse and Talon didn't they?

Edited February 14, 2007 by BlackHorse

[oldracer]

After reading this entire thread, (20 minutes I'll never get back), my conclusion is all of you just kept repeating your opinions/reasoning over & over......both of which are flawed by a simple omission.

 

That is that people buy cars based on emotion, functionality, looks and reliability, and not necessarily in that order either.

 

Ford has been the King of Mediocre, mid-pack looks, power, features and curb appeal historically.

It is interesting that the S197 Mustang has sold to people who would never considered owning a Ford before in addition to loyal Mustang people.

 

Why do suppose that happened? Maybe because it is a great product at a reasonable price for what you get.....hmmm.

 

Maybe we should do that with our cars too, you think?

 

My opinion is that NO other Ford product meets that criteria at this time, so sales are OK, but not exciting.

 

You people rag on the Chrysler 300/Charger but guess what people are buying them, I see way more of them than Fusions and 500's....

 

I looked at and drove a Jetta GLI DSG twice so far, I am probaably going to buy one when the Focus ST gets replaced.

The interior is amazing, the mileage is very good, the performance is excellent for 200 hp/2.0 L, (0-60 is 6.3 with the DSG, 6.7 w/6 spd)

The price is higher than a Fusion by about 1-2K, ($27.6 is what I was quoted w Pkg 1 and DSG). 4 yr/50,000 warranty and 5/60,000 or better driveline.

 

My SUV replacement will be an AWD Passat Wagon, just like the Audi, but cheaper.....we drove one and it is truly a well done vehicle.

 

Mustangs and the Sport Trac are the best in that category for me and I see no reason not to re-purchase them.

My LTZ 2007 'Burb is performing superbly as a tow vehicle and driver for the race shop up North and I would consider a 4 dr V8 RWD Impala in a Heartbeat....

 

I really don't need that many cars, but I can so I will......

 

Again the sale is about the Product as Bob Lutz says, after my Z06 road test last Fall, I would have one in a minute...no apologies either.

 

I buy imports and domestics because I like different things...I am no different than most people, they will go with what they really want.

 

Better products will mean better profits....no shortcuts allowed, and while Ford is at it, better fix the 1st contact with potential customers: The abysmal dealer network.....mine is good or I wouldn't even have 1 Ford, instead of the 4 I presently have.....

 

My $0.02.....I don't own a BMW because the only dealer here is horrible to get service from.....if they were as good as my ford dealer, we would have an X5 & a 335i already......dealers matter a lot in the process. :shades:

[BlackHorse]

That is that people buy cars based on emotion, functionality, looks and reliability, and not necessarily in that order either.

 

All to true racer and the car companies know it. Most people buy based on some superficial image thing. It's silly but it's true. For instance, some of you may know that I recently looked at a Pontiac Solstice that wasn't all that particularly well equipped and had a 28 thousand dollar price tag on it. Now if I went over to Ford and wanted to spend 28 grand on a truck I bet I could get a lot of truck for that kind of money right? By that I mean if you look at how much raw material is tied up in a large pickup; how much metal, and plastic, and rubber and so on. Pound for pound that 28 thousand dollar truck has a lot more outright raw material involved than the 28 thousand dollar Solstice. A no brainer right? So why the 28 grand price tag on the sports car? Because they know you'll pay it. Sports cars evoke a certain emotional appeal, they portray a certain image. They are regarded as sexy, spirited, whatever it is that gets your blood boiling about a sports car. And because of that, they know they can charge more money for less overall material. But in the end both are just machines, one hauls ass and the other hauls trailers around. If you look at it from a purely, "How much machine do I get for my money?" standpoint, the sports car is always a ripoff. But people don't mind paying it because they think their cars say something about them. Personally I'd rather speak for myself then let my car do my talking for me. I think it's pretty shallow, but it is the reality of the world we live in.

 

My God have we ever gotten off topic here!!!! lol

[retro-man]

Well, a good painting or a piece of music have no earthly "function" whatsoever either, except insofar as they appeal to the inner self. There are those who feel that functional items - cars, buildings, boats, consumer items of any stripe might be elevated to the level of "art" as well - speak to the inner self. Reflect on the i-pod phenomenon for a moment (a double example, since its functionless function is the "useless" reproduction of music): you can't deny that the Industrial Designer played at least as large a role in its commercial success as the electrical engineer - it looks "cool", and futuristic. It has emotional content. For many people, it is important for a car to have emotional content as well as practical, functional content. More or less, to different people. I don't think you could find hardly anyone who could give you a "functional" reason for the existence of music (I've done some reading on this: they've got nothing but half-baked theories), but all the same, there is that little collection of knobs and buttons in the middle of the dash to generate those organized combinations of auditory tones and rhythms......... We need that mysterious thing called beauty in our lives, whatever that means to us.

 

Let me wander further - addressing this issue of supposed "shallowness": I remember hearing a bit on NPR quite a few years ago now - they were interviewing some Italian guy who had written a book on fashion. The interviewer remarked on how exquisitely chosen his clothes were - his shirt was a deep green: "the color of a forest at midnight". He recounted how, as a young man in Italy immediately after the war, everybody was very poor, and he felt that by choosing his clothes very carefully, he could, in a small way, bring a bit of beauty into the lives of people he encountered every day. That little bit of beauty was a small "gift" that he could give to the world every day. That philosophy stuck in my mind for some reason.

 

In the early days of owning my T-Bird I took some flack about it being a "poser" car. It is ridiculously impractical on many levels. But I was (and still am, occasionally) amazed by the reaction it provoked in people. Like no other car I've ever owned. (I hasten to point out that I bought the car for the beauty, not for the flattery - that was merely an unintended side effect.) As recently as yesterday, the young woman working at the espresso drive-through was gushing over the car - at 5 years old, and with 85,000 miles on it. People on the sidewalk, or on the road in other cars, will follow it with their eyes: long, lingering, dreamy gazes. Something deep in them responds to that car: maybe simply the lines of it (which are quite beautiful), or maybe cultural memory. Even Japanese that I know respond the same way - one Japanese client has insisted on featuring it on their website and promotional videos - so I think its not entirely cultural. Why shouldn't more of the things we encounter in everyday life stir the soul like that? Do we need to go through life aesthetically constipated?

 

I have nothing against practicality - it has its place. But make no mistake: when you choose practical and low-key over soaring and poetic, you are making a statement about yourself.

Edited February 14, 2007 by retro-man

[RichardJensen]

My theory is that there is no rational reason for music, or for art, because we are not rational beings.

[BlackHorse]

I liked that one retro-man, my God sir that was deep thinking. Nicely done. There is hope yet for our society.

 

it has its place. But make no mistake: when you choose practical and low-key over soaring and poetic, you are making a statement about yourself.

 

But ooh be careful sir. Soaring and poetic is the way the light streams through the leaves on a late summers eve when the camp fire has just been stoked and the sky is clear, you're miles form the nearest road and you just know it's going to be a beautiful night. It's watching my woman sleep, completely at peace, in one of my old t-shirts. It's a cool night on the front porch with a steady breeze, a cold jack & coke and good company. It's the aroma rolling of well seasoned steaks on the grill and again in the company of good friends. Each man finds that which he regards most beautiful, most sacred in this life. For me it is that zen like state of mind that comes with spending time in the wilderness that is most sacred. So I understand why you place the affinity of your automobiles on such a high regard. But to me, they are simply machines and beauty lies elsewhere. They are some really cool machines, but machines none the less. Richard is right though, we are not rationale beings, and that's half the fun.

[retro-man]

I liked that one retro-man, my God sir that was deep thinking. Nicely done. There is hope yet for our society.

But ooh be careful sir. Soaring and poetic is the way the light streams through the leaves on a late summers eve when the camp fire has just been stoked and the sky is clear, you're miles form the nearest road and you just know it's going to be a beautiful night. It's watching my woman sleep, completely at peace, in one of my old t-shirts. It's a cool night on the front porch with a steady breeze, a cold jack & coke and good company. It's the aroma rolling of well seasoned steaks on the grill and again in the company of good friends. Each man finds that which he regards most beautiful, most sacred in this life. For me it is that zen like state of mind that comes with spending time in the wilderness that is most sacred. So I understand why you place the affinity of your automobiles on such a high regard. But to me, they are simply machines and beauty lies elsewhere. They are some really cool machines, but machines none the less. Richard is right though, we are not rationale beings, and that's half the fun.

Thank you for that post! You have spoken directly to many of my most cherished memories. You'd be surprised how many. I even enjoy my Jack and Coke (in a beautiful glass, of course) while waiting for the coals to heat up on a Summer Sunday evening .... on the breezeway, with the garage radio playing "All Blues".....

Edited February 14, 2007 by retro-man

[MKII]

It ain't $2-3k better, and it's not that distinctive looking either.

 

The All-New Ford Mondeo , Daring to be different, Striking and individual, Premium quality, transformed, Impressive, Great to drive, No-compromise safety, Distinct series, Flexible and Spacious, and most importantly "CRAFTED BY FORD"

 

Full Mondeo range : Three distinct bodystyles – a classic four-door limousine, a stylish and flexible five-door sedan and the capacious wagon

 

Ford of Europe is utilising an innovative manufacturing technique known as 'laser-brazing'. This provides a way of joining the side and roof panels together in a more aesthetically pleasing way. A higher quality finish is achieved as there is no need for plastic or rubber trims running the length of the roof to cover the area where the panels would conventionally meet.

 

All Mondeos will be available with a special infra-red (IR) front screen. This provides a cooling effect to the interior in comparison to non-infra-red glass. Tests show that the reflected energy performance of the IR glass is up to four times better when compared to standard glass.

 

Front seat legroom and shoulder room have been increased by 24mm and 52mm respectively.

 

Second row passengers also benefit from optional seat heating elements and dedicated reading lamps that are standard on high-series models.

 

In two-seat mode the wagon and five-door models offer substantial luggage capacities of 1745 litres and 1460 litres respectively. The closed luggage area of the four-door has a generous capacity of 535 litres.

 

New Keyless Entry and Keyless Start

Two major new technical features available to Mondeo customers for the first time are the keyless entry and keyless start functions

 

Hill Launch Assist

When the optional Interactive Vehicle Dynamics Control (IVDC) system is specified,Ford'sHill Launch Assist (HLA) system can also be fitted. Using the braking system, HLA is engaged when the car is stationary to prevent it from rolling downhill. HLA provides a two and a half second delay when the driver moves their foot from the brake pedal to the accelerator pedal as the system maintains pressure to the braking system.

 

Ford's optional new Interactive Vehicle Dynamics Control (IVDC) with Continuously Controlled Damping (CCD) can be specified for even better handling, comfort and stability, plus shorter braking distances.

 

The CCD system continuously adjusts the damper properties to the current road and driving conditions and offers the driver a choice of three different settings: Comfort, Normal and Sport. The system has been tuned extensively to the specific weights and wider track of the new Mondeo.

 

The new Mondeo is available with a wide choice of petrol and diesel engines, including the range-topping 220 PS Duratec 5-cylinder petrol unit as used in the Ford S-MAX and based on the engine of the high performance Ford Focus ST.

 

The following active safety features for driver assistance are standard:

 

A standard, enhanced Electronic Stability Programme (ESP) system

Anti-Lock Braking System (ABS) with Electronic Brakeforce Distribution (EBD)

Standard Hazard Warning Light Assistant and 'follow-me-home' lights

Highly developed, advanced lighting systems

For added reassurance, a host of new driver assistance features can be specified as optional equipment (depending on series and powertrain) including:

 

Adaptive Cruise Control (ACC) with Forward Alert (FA) audio and visual collision warning system, and collision mitigation by braking

Interactive Vehicle Dynamics Control ( IVDC) active suspension system with Continuously Controlled Damping (CCD)

Tyre Pressure Monitoring System (TPMS) and Run Flat tyres

Hill Launch Assist (HLA)

The following passive safety features come as standard on all series of the new Mondeo:

 

Enhanced Ford Intelligent Protection System (IPS) with seven airbags, including a new driver's knee airbag and full length side curtain airbags

Ultra-stiff body structure for a rigid safety cell

Improved driver protection through a horizontally stroking steering column

Retracting safety pedals

Optimised airbag deployment

Enhanced safety belt system with pretensioners for front seat occupants

Advanced seat design

Advanced neck injury protection system for front seat occupants

High-level child protection with ISOFIX

Designed from the outset with enhanced pedestrian protection as an objective

 

New Mondeo has built on all of the strengths of its predecessor but now has more design emotion, more refinement, more technology and more presence.

Edited February 14, 2007 by MKII

[kyle]

Someone said they read the posts in 20 minutes...took me a little bit longer!!

 

5 pages on something that may or may not happen...guess we are more than rational beings.

 

I want to commend everyone here for their passionate positions without making it personal. Bluehorse and retroman came to mind-but richard and others as well. Has been sometime where we have had such strong opinions without it getting childish-nice to see!

 

Sixcav was one of the guys who was very passionate...just got to emotional. Hope he returns someday and just tones it down.

 

Was that tempo ugly or what? Brought back a memory....keep this short....I needed a car....friend set me up with this guy who goes to the orlando auto auction (largest in the country) and buys cars for his dealerships and friends. We meet up with him on a tuesday morning at 6am....what car is he driving-84? tempo with a mazda diesel....he just loved the car. This is a guy who was worth over $80million (invented some valve for the alaska pipeline). What car did I buy? Not a tempo that is for sure.

 

I personally like both cars-think the fusion with an upgraded interior for 09 should continue to make in roads. The mondeo evicts more emotion-just think it is very good looking-almost beautiful but strong. Two distinct buyers for sure. If mercury gets a premium product they need massive dealer upgrades. Think you have to push the "european designed-manufactured-angle for it to succeed. Hell bmw or mb sure as hell don't do massive market research here for their product and it has not prevented them from succeeding here.

[NickF1011]

Nick, with a point of view like that, why try at all? Why don't we just throw our hands up and give up? How about Ford gets out of sedans all together and just becomes GMC? Is that what you want? You want to just give up? I never met a man who accomplished much by saying things are hopeless. It's the doggedly determined individuals that make a difference. Don't tell us what can't be done Nick, tell us what can be done.

 

 

Because you HAVE to start somewhere to rebuild that reputation. I'm not saying the Fusion is perfect. Neither is the Mondeo. But the Fusion is certainly a better vehicle than the public is used to getting from Ford Motor Company. They just need to keep improving product, improving advertising, and improving perception. It will change eventually if they keep up the improvements.

 

What can be done? Keep updating product. Make it better every year. Will bringing the Mondeo here now help? No, because the Fusion is already going down that path. They will be very similar vehicles in a few years as the Fusion evolves, so I don't see the point of confusing the market in the meantime by offering 2 different vehicles that will eventually be the same vehicle. That would only reinforce the perception to the public that Ford "can't get it right".

 

We'd get this if the Mondeo came over here:

 

"Oh look, they're replacing the Fusion already after 3 years...it must have been a real piece of crap."

 

Or we can get this if they continue to develop the Fusion on its own:

 

"Wow, the Fusion has really become a contender over the past couple of years. Maybe Ford has their shit together."