RichardJensen Posted June 17, 2007 Share Posted June 17, 2007 It's funny we haven't seen any of the haters on this thread yet. I think pcsario took his business elsewhere. Not surprisingly, he was quite able to shoot the most savage criticism at Ford, but could take no criticism directed at himself whatsoever. Our loss, I guess... :shrug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LincolnFan Posted June 17, 2007 Share Posted June 17, 2007 bububububububu? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ANTAUS Posted June 17, 2007 Share Posted June 17, 2007 Well just imagine how much better the vehicle would have done, if THIS were the case when debuted 2 years ago ? Do you think Ford learned their lesson as not released "bububu good enough" type of vehicles from the get-go ? They've done well with the Edge (sans the brakes) and the new Taurus, although failed miserably with the new Escape, so time will tell.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted June 17, 2007 Share Posted June 17, 2007 Well just imagine how much better the vehicle would have done, if THIS were the case when debuted 2 years ago ? Yeah, and Ford was supposed to go from 0-best in class in one product launch? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SVT_MAN Posted June 17, 2007 Share Posted June 17, 2007 (edited) Here is how that car at Jack Safro looks. I love how the new Ford grilles are offset by those black paint schemes. I've noticed that most of the newer Ford products look best in darker colors like your midnight blue, your champagne red, your deep black, that sort of thing. I saw a Taurus in that prarie tan-type color and it just didn't have that presence about it like the black Taurus did. Edited June 17, 2007 by SVT_MAN Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suv_guy_19 Posted June 17, 2007 Share Posted June 17, 2007 Yeah, and Ford was supposed to go from 0-best in class in one product launch? and I don't see how people can really call the escape a failure...well...i suppose if you use vague generalizations and don't look at the numbers... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted June 17, 2007 Share Posted June 17, 2007 It definitely looks more like a Ford than the Five Hundred. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ANTAUS Posted June 17, 2007 Share Posted June 17, 2007 Yeah, and Ford was supposed to go from 0-best in class in one product launch? Why not ? Many other automakers introduce well-rounded product from the get go, why can't Ford? "and I don't see how people can really call the escape a failure...well...i suppose if you use vague generalizations and don't look at the numbers..." And yes, the numbers look good as sales go which helps Ford in the profits dept. As a viable product in it's segment pertaining to it's qualities up against it's competition, it's a down-home, all around mediocre, half-assed attempt which degrades other Ford products. It's just like the TC, makes the rest of Lincoln, look bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suv_guy_19 Posted June 17, 2007 Share Posted June 17, 2007 (edited) Why not ? Many other automakers introduce well-rounded product from the get go, why can't Ford?"and I don't see how people can really call the escape a failure...well...i suppose if you use vague generalizations and don't look at the numbers..." And yes, the numbers look good as sales go which helps Ford in the profits dept. As a viable product in it's segment pertaining to it's qualities up against it's competition, it's a down-home, all around mediocre, half-assed attempt which degrades other Ford products. It's just like the TC, makes the rest of Lincoln, look bad. well....the consuming public seems to disagree with you...the new escape looks much better...seems to have a feel of quality...and the power train has been refined....enough was changed for a mid model change...its not an all new model. Edited June 17, 2007 by suv_guy_19 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted June 17, 2007 Share Posted June 17, 2007 Why not ? Many other automakers introduce well-rounded product from the get go, why can't Ford? We're not talking 'well-rounded'--the Five Hundred was 'well-rounded'; we're talking value, available options, power, safety, etc. You post a list of new products that were at the front of the pack when they were launched. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted June 17, 2007 Share Posted June 17, 2007 The problem is that you, and others, are not willing to credit Ford for creating a 'well-rounded' vehicle, such as the Five Hundred or Fusion. Your standards are distorted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suv_guy_19 Posted June 17, 2007 Share Posted June 17, 2007 The problem is that you, and others, are not willing to credit Ford for creating a 'well-rounded' vehicle, such as the Five Hundred or Fusion. Your standards are distorted. Don't you know Richard....if you look hard enough...you can find a cloud in every silver lining...its good now...but boy was it only ok before....well...it should have had more cup holders...fewer cup holders...better plastic...more power....more gears...etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCK Posted June 17, 2007 Share Posted June 17, 2007 well....the consuming public seems to disagree with you...the new escape looks much better...seems to have a feel of quality...and the power train has been refined....enough was changed for a mid model change...its not an all new model. Oh the escape is only a mid model change.......hmm..............leave it to ford to continue their decade long product runs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suv_guy_19 Posted June 17, 2007 Share Posted June 17, 2007 Oh the escape is only a mid model change.......hmm..............leave it to ford to continue their decade long product runs. well...it doesn't seem to have hurt it too badly...and none of the NEW products run on that...they run on 6-8 year....the new escape is only something like 3 years away....so 5 + 3 = 8....wow....lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ANTAUS Posted June 18, 2007 Share Posted June 18, 2007 The problem is that you, and others, are not willing to credit Ford for creating a 'well-rounded' vehicle, such as the Five Hundred or Fusion. Your standards are distorted. I'm sorry to disagree with you but in numerous posting I have defended Ford for many things, but this one I'm NOT letting down. So because I have one "negative" perspective, then it voids everything positive than I have ever said about Ford? Not so. Personally speaking.... me here... My opinion is that the Escape was a half-assed job. The buying public says otherwise, but then again, how many people actually know a OHV from a OHC for that matter. But for those who do know about vehicles, I think they, we, or I might be in the majority to state that the Escape was a mediocre effort. I'll cut some slack because Ford is putting some wild-fires out with other vehicles, granted. But after 7 years (usually 5 is the norm), Ford decides to introduce the vehicle that should have debuted 2 years ago. What we have now, WOULD have been good in 2005...but lackluster for 2008. And mainly because of it's drivetrain. I have yet to read a positive review of the Escape, rather, they point the obvious which I'm referring to. Heavier, slower, sloppier....But it's quieter though I'm glad that people are buying it up, it's helping Ford. But realistically, I think we can all agree that it COULD have been better. And you are correct, my standards are distorted. Maybe after seeing Ford spend billions, I actually expect them to introduce a vehicle that aims to the top of the class, the benchmarks. TI mean, GEE most of ti's competitors seem to have no issue attaining it. Granted, now with Mullaly, and the new introduction of the Taurus, it seems as if MAYBE the tide is turning away from the "bububu good enough" mentaility. I only hope the momentum continues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted June 18, 2007 Share Posted June 18, 2007 GEE most of ti's competitors seem to have no issue attaining it. Put your money where your mouth is. You name immediate hits in new segments from other manufacturers. Do it. Come on. Spill the beans. Provide a list of actual models that were new entries into segments that were hits right off the bat--that were better than the established competition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traveler Posted June 18, 2007 Share Posted June 18, 2007 I saw a '08 Taurus at the local show back in March. I've said before that from the exterior, the car still seems to be missing the mark ever so slightly. I think there is a definite likelihood that the Taurus will be more appealing to a younger buyer than the Five-Hundred, but I'm not sure it will bring them in by the droves. Interior-wise, Ford has put this puzzle together pretty well. I like the car on the inside. To me, the Taurus is a class-leader in style and innovation from the driver seat. I like it much better than the Hondas, Toyotas, Chevys, Dodges, Chryslers, Buicks, etc. in its class. Of course, I still have a fondness for the Crown Victoria that isn't shared with the Five-Hundred/Taurus. However, my appreciation for the big Ford sedan isn't necessarily and directly related to the BOF design and I'm open for a unit body RWD sedan for the future if Ford can build one with the basic design theme and quality control that the Taurus apparently possesses. I love the old-school Ford, because I don't see anything wrong with it. However, I will give Ford a pat on the back and give them some praise for how they've brought the Taurus along and for bringing back the name. I think it was a smart move...maybe not that bold...but smart. The Bold Moves will come when Ford decides to offer a flagship full size RWD sedan with a Ford badge alongside the Taurus and Fusion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ANTAUS Posted June 18, 2007 Share Posted June 18, 2007 Put your money where your mouth is.You name immediate hits in new segments from other manufacturers. Do it. Come on. Spill the beans. Provide a list of actual models that were new entries into segments that were hits right off the bat--that were better than the established competition. That's all interpretation, but since your asking for my opinion, the Altima aimed pretty high with great powertrains, and now the new version features toys that competitors do not. Granted, it doesn't sell at the 400K range as the Accord and Camry, but it sells more than the original version and leaves little for anyone to desire. The Oddysey was another. When it was redesigned it offered a great powertrain and toys and is now one of the benchmarks and sells well. Not much has been done to it since, but why should it, the competition hasn't even come close yet. Infiniti G35 aimed for BMW standards, and while it fell a lil' bit short, it has come up many times in 2nd behind the 3-series. It offers a good value, great powertrain, and hasn't required much touching up. New one just debuted with a few more gadgets and improved drivetrain. Lets use some Fords as examples.... The original Lincoln LS, debuted and it was a good all-around product needing really nothing else to desire for it's segment.. The '03 tweaking solidified it with even more toys, drivetrain improvements and comforts, but then went stale. Even the original Focus in it's time did great (sans the recalls), it aimed for great comfort, value, driving dynamics and power (in comparison to it's competitors of that time), but a few years later, the competition passed it on SOME levels. My point is, introducing vehicles that aim to the higher standard vehicles in it's class. Not some half-baked attempt using yestur-generation engines/drivetrains, then phase in all the toys in the 3rd year mark because they are desperate to boost lanquishing sales. But there's hope with the new introduction of the Taurus, Edge and Flex. They seem to have everything going for it from the starting gate... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted June 18, 2007 Share Posted June 18, 2007 Altima was a continuation of the Stanza, and has been on the market for 15 years--with the Altima name, and something like a decade before that with the Stanza name. Nissan didn't just drop the current Altima into the market--it had been building cars for the midsize segment for quite a while. "When the Odyssey was redesigned", thank you for once again making my point. Honda/Isuzu's first 'people mover' was a total flop. They had to take a second run at it, which they got right. Infiniti G35--this vehicle is no more than the Ford Fusion to BMW's Honda Accord: Good, definitely competitive, but lacking in a few areas under close scrutiny. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ANTAUS Posted June 18, 2007 Share Posted June 18, 2007 I was refering to new introductions...when a vehicle is substantially redesigned. Not when the initial "name" was released. And even then, the mantra for them (at least the 2nd time around) was to aim high and be competitive...they might not have gotten it right the first time, but they did on the 2nd try in the case of the Oddity. Granted, there have been other mediocre efforts by other manufacturers. Saturn L300, most Mitsubishi's, Saabs, etc.etc. Nothing worse than releasing a vehicle that continiously is rated at the end of the pack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted June 18, 2007 Share Posted June 18, 2007 (edited) I was refering to new introductions...when a vehicle is substantially redesigned. Those are two different things. Consider: Nissan had a team, engineers, and a body of knowledge associated with the Altima. Yes, the Altima of 2003(?) was all new, but it was developed in no small part by applying lessons learned from the previous Altima. Nissan didn't fire all the Altima engineers, throw out all the Altima 'cookbooks', and start from absolute zero with the Altima. Granted, Ford didn't start from scratch with the Five Hundred either, BUT, the Five Hundred was Ford's first effort at a new passenger sedan in TEN YEARS. Whatever information, studies, and research they had from the D101 was useless. There was a lot of institutional knowledge missing that companies like Honda, Toyota, and Nissan already had. It is a mistake to underestimate the value of accumulated knowledge at a corporation. For instance, when doing tear downs of the F150, undoubtedly Tundra engineers came across stuff that made no sense to them, but which improves the performance of the F150. The lack of institutional understanding--project notes, veteran engineers, etc., has handicapped Toyota's efforts in the fullsize truck segment just as surely as it has handicapped Ford's efforts in the family sedan segment. Fortunately for Ford they were able to borrow architectures from Volvo & Mazda (something Toyota couldn't do with the Tundra), still, there is a pretty steep learning curve for engineers working on the CD3s and D3s. Edited June 18, 2007 by RichardJensen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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