Fifth Gear Reviews the Mondeo

[ShockFX]

Ford DOES have to follow the strategy that Lexus used. Do you know why? NOBODY would take a $70,000 Lincoln seriously, no matter how freaking good it was.

 

On the other hand, a $45,000 Lincoln that is admittedly not up-to-snuff but considerably cheaper (like the first LS) could turn quite a few heads.

 

Aren't you the one that rails against mediocrity?

You're right, no one would take a $70,000 Lincoln seriously. That's why they should have make a $45,000 MIDSIZE competitor for the GS/E/5/M/A6 segment. They could have built a great car there instead of a admittedly not up-to-snuff design. Good enough rarely ever is. It's time Ford stopped the good enough crap and built a good car. Besides, I don't recall the mad demand for a full size Lincoln anyway. Not like the Livery services will want the MkS.

[NickF1011]

It's from the 2006 CY BMW sales release.

 

http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2007/01/03/032847.html

 

Well, it's no longer listed on their website. I won't miss it.

[RichardJensen]

Aren't you the one that rails against mediocrity?

You're right, no one would take a $70,000 Lincoln seriously. That's why they should have make a $45,000 MIDSIZE competitor for the GS/E/5/M/A6 segment. They could have built a great car there instead of a admittedly not up-to-snuff design. Good enough rarely ever is. It's time Ford stopped the good enough crap and built a good car. Besides, I don't recall the mad demand for a full size Lincoln anyway. Not like the Livery services will want the MkS.

What???

 

You've just moved the price obstacle down a notch. No one would pay -THE SAME PRICE- for a Lincoln as for an MB, BMW, or even an Audi. -Regardless- of size.

[ShockFX]

It's from the 2006 CY BMW sales release.

 

http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2007/01/03/032847.html

 

2007 forward is just 328 and 335. Check their site.

[ShockFX]

What???

 

You've just moved the price obstacle down a notch. No one would pay -THE SAME PRICE- for a Lincoln as for an MB, BMW, or even an Audi. -Regardless- of size.

 

MkX vs the RX350?

[RichardJensen]

2007 forward is just 328 and 335. Check their site.

Does the base model still come with vinyl seats?

[RichardJensen]

MkX vs the RX350?

Price them out. MKX carries something like a 10% discount in MSRP.

[suv_guy_19]

MkX vs the RX350?

 

 

Ford brands are taken seriously in the case of trucks and SUV's. That said, the RX still sells a great deal more.

[ShockFX]

It's a pain in the butt, even with tabbed browsing. And your statement contains no modal verbs, and no qualifying prepositions. It is, syntactically, an assertion of fact, regardless of your intention.

 

Oops. There are modal verbs (could, would, should). My mistake.

 

However, the absence of any qualifying language means that it is still an assertion of fact, or at the very least an assertion that -should- be underpinned by supporting documentation.

 

I will never assert a fact without proper documentation or the note that I couldn't find it and I may be wrong. My biggest pet peeve is the presentation of opinions as facts, because people that are incapable of reading comprehension spread false facts based on what they read. I think, after a bit, you'll learn to like me.

[NickF1011]

Aren't you the one that rails against mediocrity?

You're right, no one would take a $70,000 Lincoln seriously. That's why they should have make a $45,000 MIDSIZE competitor for the GS/E/5/M/A6 segment. They could have built a great car there instead of a admittedly not up-to-snuff design. Good enough rarely ever is. It's time Ford stopped the good enough crap and built a good car. Besides, I don't recall the mad demand for a full size Lincoln anyway. Not like the Livery services will want the MkS.

 

Nobody would take a $45,000 Lincoln midsize sedan seriously either. With Lincoln's current image, the only thing they can do is offer more car for the price than their competitors. It's the only way people will consider looking at them. They can't offer a great midsize sedan for the same price as their competitors. Nobody would look at it. Instead they offer the lower-priced MKZ. They can't offer a great fullsize sedan for the same price as their competitors. Nobody would look at it. Instead they offer the MKS. Now, I do think there will eventually be room for a vehicle BETWEEN the MKZ and MKS to fill the role you're talking about, but not until Lincoln establishes itself again.

 

I'm not saying I like it, but the fact is, Lincoln's image is not what it used to be. They are viewed as being sub-par, so they are forced to offer products that are value-oriented instead of luxury-oriented. Would I like Lincoln to offer a world class sedan in every class that can take on everybody? Sure. But with their current state of affairs, nobody would take it seriously until they build back a reputation for offering a good value. Once the value proposition has been embedded in the minds of consumers, then they can start offering more expensive product. It was the exact same tact that Lexus took. They climbed to the top of their game by offering perceived value and quality, nothing more. Lincoln is on that same road. The quality is already there. Now they need to make people believe they are getting more for their money than they could looking elsewhere.

[ShockFX]

Price them out. MKX carries something like a 10% discount in MSRP.

 

I have no interest in pricing them out, I do know the MkX can get up there with options though. Even still, 36k vs 33k at 10% is not the same as $70k vs $45k, which is roughly a 35% discount. Also, Lincoln doesn't have 15 years to go from $45k to $70 like Lexus did. A midsize starting at $40k and a fullsize starting at $58k seems like a much better plan to me.

 

MkZ - $30k to $45k

Mk? - $40k to $60k

MkS - $58k to $85k

 

Perhaps a slightly reduced MkS would have filled the Mk? gap better.

 

And you can't expect anyone to take Lincoln seriously until it takes itself seriously.

[RichardJensen]

I will never assert a fact without proper documentation or the note that I couldn't find it and I may be wrong.

You mean the assertion that Ford 'should have engineered a new RWD platform'?

 

I do my best, when I've said that (and I've said it before, believe it or not), to say, "If Ford did this...this might have been their best chance...." It's a ventured opinion, not an assertion of testable fact.

 

Frankly, if the Lincoln LS had been engineered with more flexibility, something like what you suggest could have been done, and the end result might have been better credibility for Lincoln.

 

But it's difficult to say that success for Lincoln on that path is a foregone conclusion.

 

IMO, what Lincoln is doing with the MKS is properly conservative, and IMO the MKS hits a real sweet spot where other vehicles in its price range tend to be overwhelmingly of the 'sport' variety, with little in the way of true luxury besides the hopelessly out of date DeVille (err, DTS) and Town Car.

 

I think there will be surprisingly strong demand for this car.

[Roadrunner]

Mercedes' midsize entry (I don't know if they'd adopted the C/E/S scheme then)

 

(Lexus ES) most certainly DID offer more car in terms of size.

 

I believe they had started moving to that by 1992. They had the C-Class, I'm fairly sure. S-Class was... 1993, 1994?

E-Class was an extension of the 190E, wasn't it?

 

As for your second point -- it offered more in terms of size, but not in terms of image.

[NickF1011]

As for your second point -- it offered more in terms of size, but not in terms of image.

 

And that's another part of why it had to be priced so much lower.

[RichardJensen]

$70k vs $45k, which is roughly a 35% discount.

Actually, I think the MKS will start out this side of $40k. About where you posit your midsize.

 

And frankly, I don't think that's a bad strategy. Where the MKS comes in it offers distinct advantages when compared with similarly priced models, and I would in fact argue that what should be placed above the MKS is a new 'Continental' that would start at $55k on a stretched MKS platform, with nearly every luxury item that money can buy.

 

The idea would be a vehicle that could profitably sell at maybe only 15k units per year, but which would be the ultimate Lincoln, powerful, sure, but its owners would consider such displays thoroughly beneath them. Alternatively, this vehicle could become the replacement for the Town Car as an 'executive car.' It would be one that would be as classy a vehicle to own, as to be driven in.

[ShockFX]

You mean the assertion that Ford 'should have engineered a new RWD platform'?

 

I do my best, when I've said that (and I've said it before, believe it or not), to say, "If Ford did this...this might have been their best chance...." It's a ventured opinion, not an assertion of testable fact.

Aww come on, that's clearly an opinion. I condensed the "if ford did this...this" into "should". If we're arguing what car is more powerful and i say that I think car A has more HP then i'm attempting to make a fact. In my mind, the use of the would "should" is the best judge of being an opinion because it's clearly armchair quarterbacking.

Frankly, if the Lincoln LS had been engineered with more flexibility, something like what you suggest could have been done, and the end result might have been better credibility for Lincoln.

 

But it's difficult to say that success for Lincoln on that path is a foregone conclusion.

 

IMO, what Lincoln is doing with the MKS is properly conservative, and IMO the MKS hits a real sweet spot where other vehicles in its price range tend to be overwhelmingly of the 'sport' variety, with little in the way of true luxury besides the hopelessly out of date DeVille (err, DTS) and Town Car.

 

I think there will be surprisingly strong demand for this car.

Don't we yell at Ford regularly for being "conservative"? The LS underpinned the T-Bird, S-Type, and modified to the Mustang. It had flexibility. What it didn't have was the ability to go cheap down market. The platform should have been to Ford what the E-class platform is to Mercedes. IE, use for E and S class then let past gen be in mass market cars (300/Charger/etc). Ford couldn't go upmarket with it because Jag had its own top line XJ platform and Lincoln was not allowed to compete with Jag. Ford created EXACTLY what it needed for Lincoln and its other domestic brands but was shot in the foot by territority issues. The platform didn't fail, Ford failed the platform. This is the type of thinking that is completely missing from Ford. The LS was a brilliant idea, we need more LS ideas.

[suv_guy_19]

Actually, I think the MKS will start out this side of $40k. About where you posit your midsize.

 

And frankly, I don't think that's a bad strategy. Where the MKS comes in it offers distinct advantages when compared with similarly priced models, and I would in fact argue that what should be placed above the MKS is a new 'Continental' that would start at $55k on a stretched MKS platform, with nearly every luxury item that money can buy.

 

The idea would be a vehicle that could profitably sell at maybe only 15k units per year, but which would be the ultimate Lincoln, powerful, sure, but its owners would consider such displays thoroughly beneath them. Alternatively, this vehicle could become the replacement for the Town Car as an 'executive car.' It would be one that would be as classy a vehicle to own, as to be driven in.

 

 

Isn't the MKS big enough already though. If you stretch it, it would be huge. Then again, it would be similar in size the the 98 - 04 intrepid.

[RichardJensen]

Don't we yell at Ford regularly for being "conservative"? The LS underpinned the T-Bird, S-Type, and modified to the Mustang. It had flexibility.

I consider most of what Ford did in the late 90s and early 00s to be reckless, not conservative. By conservative, I mean hewing to well established business principles, not mindlessly continuing to follow bad business practices. I consider it to be a complement.

 

Also I would not call DEW98 flexible. The S-Type and LS had very different sheetmetal, but were basically intended to be the same kind of car. The T-Bird looked good (depending on who you ask), but the chassis was not solid as a convertible, and the Mustang is in its way about as far removed from the DEW as the XJ/XK architecture.

 

I mean I don't think you could find enough shared components between the Mustang and LS to justify calling the Mustang a DEW derivative.

 

---

 

In any event, a lineup based on DEW would still not move market perception of Lincoln much, if Cadillac's experience is to be taken as an example. In an Ad Age article last year, Cadillac marketing chief Liz Vanzura is said to have been surprised at the low rate of consideration for Cadillac products among young professional males.

[RichardJensen]

Isn't the MKS big enough already though. If you stretch it, it would be huge. Then again, it would be similar in size the the 98 - 04 intrepid.

An inch or two in the wheelbase--nothing extravagant--on the outside the MKS is fairly trim--shorter than the Town Car.

 

This putative Continental would be, basically, a production limousine. Not a 'haul your bridal party to the reception or your friends to the prom' limousine, but a sumptuous well equipped luxury car.

[suv_guy_19]

An inch or two in the wheelbase--nothing extravagant--on the outside the MKS is fairly trim--shorter than the Town Car.

 

This putative Continental would be, basically, a production limousine. Not a 'haul your bridal party to the reception or your friends to the prom' limousine, but a sumptuous well equipped luxury car.

 

 

I get you now.

[TomServo92]

Correct, but I'm not presenting opinions as facts with "I think". I'm pretty sure I busted out sales numbers to make my point as well.

 

Of course you are. For example, these statements were made by you in this thread:

 

Umm, if they move it upmarket with a future redesign it will be to a completely new platform and will be basically an all new car.

 

Ford isn't going to target the MkS at the full size's, it's going to target the midsize, because the MkS could not compete with the 7series/Sclass/LS460 etc

 

They are both presented as facts and unless you have some inside info into Ford's platform development and marketing, they are just your opinion.

Edited September 11, 2007 by TomServo92

[ShockFX]

Of course you are. For example, these statements were made by you in this thread:

They are both presented as facts and unless you have some inside info into Ford's platform development and marketing, they are just your opinion.

 

Notice "IF they move it upmarket". I don't think you can argue the current platform that can't hold a V8 other than the Yamaha can compete with upmarket cars with V8s and V10s. If they keep it where it is they wouldn't have to change it, but then it's positioned wrong and kills Lincoln brand potential.

 

Also note Richard and Nick defending the MkS as more car for you money. The MkS isn't more car than more expensive full sizes, you get more features for spending $20k more. It may be the same physical size at a smaller price, but so is buying a Taurus vs a S-Class. It's more car than midsizes but at a comparable price. So if Lincoln cannot target luxury full size cars because it will come up well short, it has to target mid size cars correct? Is this really that big of leap you won't accept it?

 

On another note, the DEW platform is flexible enough that the average consumer would not see a resemblance between the S-Type and the LS, but the average consumer will see resemblance between the MkZ and Fusion. That's the flexibilty I was referring too, and hell, it was still the starting point for the Mustang. That had to save some development cash.

 

In addition, the LS could be considered a "detuned decontented S-Type" where as the MkZ is a "retuned higher contented Fusion". You can say a 300 has a Mercedes platform for marketing, but you don't want to do it the other way. I would rather say I have Lincoln parts in my Fusion than Ford parts on my MkZ, savvy? Similar to the Five Hundred being a last gen Volvo, you could market that, but you don't market that the Lincoln is a last gen Volvo. Last example, the XType was a Mondeo derivative, the Mondeo wasn't an XType derivative.

[suv_guy_19]

On another note, the DEW platform is flexible enough that the average consumer would not see a resemblance between the S-Type and the LS, but the average consumer will see resemblance between the MkZ and Fusion. That's the flexibilty I was referring too, and hell, it was still the starting point for the Mustang. That had to save some development cash.

 

Unless you look at the 2 cars (Fusion and MKZ) directly from the side, you have to try hard to see they are similar.

[TomServo92]

Notice "IF they move it upmarket".

 

But you followed that with "It will be" which denotes what follows is fact. I repeat: unless you have inside information into Ford's platform development, it's mere conjecture on your part, not fact.

[RichardJensen]

That's the flexibilty I was referring too, and hell, it was still the starting point for the Mustang. That had to save some development cash.

It's not flexible enough for multiple wheelbases, and multiple vehicle types, the better definition of platform (as opposed to two sedans almost exactly the same size with different sheetmetal--which kind of describes the ES & Camry).

 

---

 

Further, to the returning question of the MKS 'suitability' as a competitor against the significantly more expensive 'D' size cruisers from Lexus, Audi, BMW, and Mercedes: Undoubtedly you will sacrifice the cachet of the name, certain refinements, etc.

 

However, the 'value proposition' to the consumer is "Do you get more than you give up?"

 

In the case of the MKS, I would say, for its target audience, the answer is a resounding yes.

 

Note that this is the same value proposition that the Lexus had, and as to the market being more mature today, I would argue that's not the case. There are about the same number of midsize luxury sedans on the market now as there were in the mid 90s. A couple more, but unlike entry level midsize sedans, there has been no great proliferation in that segment. The Koreans aren't there, for instance.

 

Is it more competitive? Sure. But you can't....

 

 

Know what? I just realized how stupid this all is. I'm not saying anything here that hasn't been said dozens of times already.

 

I'm done with this thread; sales results for the MKS will show that it's more than competitive, in no small part because it fills a niche that has been largely ignored in the $40k price range.