ford4v429 Posted September 15, 2007 Share Posted September 15, 2007 (edited) A little birdie told me the Alcoa cold forged wheels for the duallie trucks are soon to be replaced by source in China...guess with all the shitty tires from over there they had to retool for alternate American products... Alcoa forged wheels have been a mainstay for commercial and light trucks along with high performance autos...From the heaviest semi's to the latest Shelby KR, SRT Chryslers and Ford heavy trucks, in some applications I guess theyre worth the cost...or at least they used to be. I know a old guy that was kinda 'the man' at an alcoa forging plant-back in the day, he was a huge Perot fan, always warned about NAFTA, and all the 'world economy' outsourcing that was blossoming sucking the technological life out of our country...he knew volumes about processing metals (HE forged that heat shield that NASA was worried had came loose on John Glenn's mercury capsule- Berylllium copper I think he said it was...said they had to forge it in a inert gas environment to maintain purity or something...). Anyway, he knew the ART that is forging/spinforming alloys to get the proper grain structure, compaction in required areas, how to play with staged heat treating, variations on aging between processes, how to tweak a radius here or there to totally correct or destroy flow thats required to shift strength where required...think he had like 40 years or so in when he retired, surely many of his and other 'old timers' little tricks have been lost, many more evolving into todays Alcoa wheel processes- there were a lot of lifetimers in the business that really made it what it is today... he ended up a stroke victim about 10 years ago, last I saw him, he'd remember me one minute, forget the next...sadly looks like all the work these folks put their lives into will be given to China... One thing I remember him telling me was how some Asian firm had been trying for years to get a wheel that would survive as long as Alcoa's semi wheels in whatever fatigue type tests they'd run, and he'd never seen one reach 60%, and their failure mode was cracking from one outer hole to the next, eventually to the point of rim separation...the alcoa wheels would run nearly twice as long and consistently failed as designed, from hole to inner rim, which would cause a slow air leak long before any structural failures...kinda a failsafe thing. think he said it was like several million miles equivalent rated use... If I get back to see him, I wouldnt tell him China was going to be soon forging wheels for 'high stress' vehicles. Dunno if he'd cry or flip fucking out, but it would definitely hurt. when is this going to end? why not Diesel crankshafts, and rods while theyre at it... Oh nevermind, I'm sure all the new Chinese products will be fine- hell if they cant make plastic toys or rubber tires that dont poison or kill people, maybe they will be able to do a better job at making some metal parts like control arms, brake calipers, ball joints, crankshafts, wheels and other thing of that nature where any material defects are INSIDE the fucking part where it cant be seen. Maybe we can just all start buying those little 'QQ' chevy clones, copied so closely the doors are interchangeable- even if it was THE most unsafe vehicle on earth in the Chinese version...funny how the invisible art of metallurgy cant be copied by reverse engineering...this crap scares the hell out of me, and it is crap. I just hope Ford dont start taking the wallmart approach to high stress parts on one of thier bread and butter products like they have everything else. Sadly as long as the leaded paint shines on that toy, it will sell...surely a shiny (aluminum?) wheel will sell no matter where its made too. heck they might even be better than american parts- on the days they use the right alloy, forge temperature/tool prep/press speed/heat treat/age...as long as they dont have to paint it to the stringent specifications of those difficult to manufacture 'CARS' toys, shouldnt be a problem in ANY way shape or form...but 'paint is paint' / 'aluminum is aluminum' / 'steel is steel' right? on the other hand, perhaps we can 'ship' all the metallurgical knowhow to China, build a shiny new plant and they can copy/copy/copy it all over thier country, and finally make some quality tools, and other high strength things that we would just LOVE to buy...except once that day comes, they will then also be able to build better guns, rockets, tanks, aircraft, etc...they will really appreciate that once the Taiwan thing comes to a head...once they have quantity AND equal quality in 'war machine' capability this worlds not going to be a better place to say the least. Sorry for the rant- I know this stuffs been getting worse for years (and not just Ford or wallmart) but the rumor of high stress, fatigue prone stuff coming from over there like specifically the wheels I had been told about going to China really makes me feel sick. If the parts are junk, that sucks- if the parts are good, that sucks... the race to the bottom is disturbing, but like when Clinton OK'd selling missile guidance systems to China(surely they didnt copy it and sell it to anyone else in the world...), anything that assists in refining alloying/heat treating/forging/spinning in China that will lead them towards making more consistent products equal to the best of the United States or Germany by GIVING away technology that took decades or more to perfect will take away one of the last few qualities we have here. the old biblical 'teach a man to fish, he'll have food for a lifetime' can apply to things like high quality cars and trucks too. give them the ability to produce the most difficult/highest stressed parts in the industry, and you have given them the keys to every factory left in the USA- what few are left. The ONLY good thing about Chinese parts is they tend to be cheaper- the flipside is they are notoriously cheep regarding consistent quality. I can just picture a few years down the road when 'wallmart quality' wheels/crankshafts/control arms/whatever start breaking, the lawsuits finish off the likes of GM and Ford, and were all looking sadly at the latest QQ as the only option for a new car... One person is not going to change things, but if EVERYONE would voice thier opinions to the American businesses this country NEEDS to survive, sooner or later someones got to listen. Everyone Ive ever talked to thinks shipping jobs/technology to third world countries is killing this country, yet no one will take "the time it takes to watch the Simpsons" out of thier schedule to sit down and write a letter to thier congressmen or business leaders and speak up. I type slow (this has taken over an hour so far) but I hope at least one person at Ford hears I wouldnt want certain critical parts EVER sourced from China on something like a one ton dual wheeled work truck...maybe most of the parts are already Chinese sourced, but like the Mattel toys, what we dont know dont hurt us right? sorry for writing a book here...just tired and frustrated... Edited September 15, 2007 by ford4v429 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bored of Pisteon Posted September 15, 2007 Share Posted September 15, 2007 Doesn't anybody notice the Hankook tires (Korea) are on these newer Fords? What the fuck is up with that? Get a clue guys... Do you expect somebody buying a new Ford vehicle not to notice? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ford Jellymoulds Posted September 15, 2007 Share Posted September 15, 2007 India is where 25 million future automovive jobs are going to in 2016? http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6583203.stm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ford4v429 Posted September 16, 2007 Author Share Posted September 16, 2007 India is where 25 million future automovive jobs are going to in 2016? http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6583203.stm thanks for that link... India's labour intensive car industry has become a tremendous job creator and as such a crucial driver of economic growth. hmm...wonder if the reverse is true here??? Nah...that couldnt be a factor... For every job created directly by the automotive industry, a further seven are created indirectly in the economy at large, explains Jagdish Khattar, managing director and chief executive of India's best-selling car maker does that mean for every job shipped out in the USA theres 8 less potential buyers???(actually I think as the economy freefalls following the automotive losses, and general income security worry sets in, its probably closer to 800 than 8...but thats all indirect, dont worry about things like that right...) I think the single biggest problem in the auto industry is they got big by making products they were proud of, and folks put their heart into building products as it helped secure their future...none of that seems to matter anymore, the only thing that matters is tomorrows stock prices. If Ford and other plants REALLY want to turn around North American operations, perhaps they should quit hiring execs at astronomical salaries saddled with huge stock options...Perhaps they just might do better by hiring the same types of talent, but base wages solely on a 'profit sharing' type of agreement on the PRODUCTS PRODUCED INSIDE THE UNITED STATES...not just cars but sub-assemblies/components. Surely the folks at the top ALREADY HAVE TO KNOW THAT IF FOLKS AINT WORKING, THEY CANT BUY THE CAR. encourage Execs to 'INsource' inside the US borders to give jobs to folks THAT MIGHT ACTUALLY BUY THE PRODUCT instead of someone making 50 bucks a week halfway around the world. I cant see it happening, not if the top dogs personal fortunes only hinge on stock prices. These guys NEED to lobby the government for help in anyway possible to level the playing field with the Chinas and Indias out there that are fighting a financial war with the USA that we all seem to want to loose...cheaper at any cost has gone on way too long, and if its not already too late to stop the out of control spiral, its definitely on the edge of too late at best. If the top execs only reward is to inflate their stock holdings in any way possible, why should they worry about next year or next decade? Is this that hard to see? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pdmustgt Posted September 16, 2007 Share Posted September 16, 2007 (edited) You seem to forget that some a-hole in this country think they are worth $30.00 a hour to sit there and push a button, Thanks to the unions for that for forcing companys into this. They are only shooting themself in the foot. The big 3 should sue the unions for unfair business practices. The big 3 are force to go outside this country to keep costs down. BTW I have worked for unions so I know all the BS they do..I will never work for a unions again life is sooo much easier without them. Edited September 16, 2007 by pdmustgt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pioneer Posted September 16, 2007 Share Posted September 16, 2007 $30.00 a hour Nice rounding. You could also go the other way and say they make close to $20.00 an hour. :rolleyes: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyser Soze Posted September 17, 2007 Share Posted September 17, 2007 (edited) This increasing overseas outsourcing is a big hot button for me. If the auto makers themselves do not support American industry, they sure as hell better not wave the American flag at me when I'm car shopping. I'll buy the product that best meets my needs, just as they do. Edited September 17, 2007 by Keyser Soze Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ford4v429 Posted September 17, 2007 Author Share Posted September 17, 2007 You seem to forget that some a-hole in this country think they are worth $30.00 a hour to sit there and push a button, Thanks to the unions for that for forcing companys into this. They are only shooting themself in the foot. The big 3 should sue the unions for unfair business practices. The big 3 are force to go outside this country to keep costs down. BTW I have worked for unions so I know all the BS they do..I will never work for a unions again life is sooo much easier without them. this original post was started about wheels produced by another American company that Ford contracts to produce parts- a company IN the US that is one of countless(but dwindling) subcontractors to Ford, GM, Chrysler, Honda, Hyundai, Harley, Polaris, Toro...any 'brand name' that still has assembly plants in the US, also has suppliers both union and non union. My biggest problem is certain parts require a lot of 'hidden know-how' in metallurgy(sp?) heat treating, aging, prestressing and a lot of other 'invisible' qualities...probably everyone in here has seen a harbor freight type copy of a hand tool that looks like a American tool but bends/snaps/falls apart the first time you use it. if they start forging wheels,diesel crankshafts, pittman arms and steering knuckles for heavy trucks, I'd love to see a show of hands as to public opinion on if it would be as strong as a US sourced forging. I bet the only 'good as ours' comments would come from the accounting gurus that can show the document specifying requirements/testing...yeah, I bet Mattel had one of those too. I loved the movie Forrest Gump- think a twist on a quote from that movie might sum it up pretty well: Chinas like a box of chocolates- you never know what youre gonna get... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furious1Auto Posted September 17, 2007 Share Posted September 17, 2007 You seem to forget that some a-hole in this country think they are worth $30.00 a hour to sit there and push a button, Thanks to the unions for that for forcing companys into this. They are only shooting themself in the foot. The big 3 should sue the unions for unfair business practices. The big 3 are force to go outside this country to keep costs down. BTW I have worked for unions so I know all the BS they do..I will never work for a unions again life is sooo much easier without them. Funny you point at the Unions that attempt to acquire fair sustainable wages for their members to excuse big business for their abandonment! So rather than see to it that their employees can maintain a decent standard of living, you still think that the executives should continue to be able to buy yacht's and live the jet set life! Get real as an employer you should embody the the humanity and sense of responsibility towards your employee's to make sure they don't sleep on the sidewalk! If company owners had their way that is exactly what would happen if that meant that they could drive a Ferrari! That is why unionization is necessary, although it has been weakened by our bought politicians anti union legislation! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ford4v429 Posted September 18, 2007 Author Share Posted September 18, 2007 (edited) Saw something interesting on AOL this morning: Whats a million dollar Lamborghini got in common with a Ford Duallie? wheels forged by the same American (Alcoa) plant! Guess they both required the strongest forged wheels available...well up till 2008 when apparently only the Lambo will still require strong rims... wonder if the aircraft wheels could be next? we built some machines for an aerospace plant, and for some reason they used all Alcoa forgings also...maybe the aircraft will still require reliably strong wheels after 2008 though... If I ever hear Boieng starts sourcing wheels from China, you'll never see me putting my family on an airplane again. Gonna be bad enough sharing the highways if the heavy trucks get them...back in 1990 my mom had the whole side of her new T-bird flattened by a semi that had an axle tube fail as she was passing...a few years ago in Akron a lady in a van was killed when a semi lost a wheel and it crossed the median and went thru her van(like out the back doors even...). They were probably American parts, but even the best can fail- wonder if the occurances will increase or decrease if heavy trucks start getting wheel/suspension parts forged in China? Edited September 18, 2007 by ford4v429 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ford Jellymoulds Posted September 18, 2007 Share Posted September 18, 2007 (edited) Saw something interesting on AOL this morning: Whats a million dollar Lamborghini got in common with a Ford Duallie? wheels forged by the same American (Alcoa) plant! Guess they both required the strongest forged wheels available...well up till 2008 when apparently only the Lambo will still require strong rims... wonder if the aircraft wheels could be next? we built some machines for an aerospace plant, and for some reason they used all Alcoa forgings also...maybe the aircraft will still require reliably strong wheels after 2008 though... If I ever hear Boieng starts sourcing wheels from China, you'll never see me putting my family on an airplane again. Gonna be bad enough sharing the highways if the heavy trucks get them...back in 1990 my mom had the whole side of her new T-bird flattened by a semi that had an axle tube fail as she was passing...a few years ago in Akron a lady in a van was killed when a semi lost a wheel and it crossed the median and went thru her van(like out the back doors even...). They were probably American parts, but even the best can fail- wonder if the occurances will increase or decrease if heavy trucks start getting wheel/suspension parts forged in China? You better not put your family on an Airbus A320 then because they are building them in China now for Airbus to undercut Boeing on price. I agree with you l would not fly on any aircraft made and assembled in China. Will Airbus end up building all its aircraft in China with cheap labour? very scary. http://www.reuters.com/article/tnBasicIndu...633904320070517 Edited September 18, 2007 by Ford Jellymoulds Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apexpredator Posted October 9, 2007 Share Posted October 9, 2007 It's amazing, Ford, GM, and Chrysler keep sending all of our vehicle manufacturing to Mexico, Asia, and India and the European and Japanese manufacturers are building plants here. Toyota, Nissan, Subaru, all make vehicles here. BMW builds here and VW is moving it's headquarters from Auburn Hills to Virginia and is also planning to build a manufacturing plant there as well. So as I see it, US companies who's vehicles depreciate because of perceived quality issues build outside of the US, and the companies that are KNOWN for building the best cars in the world build them here.... Hmm.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ford4v429 Posted October 19, 2007 Author Share Posted October 19, 2007 It's amazing, Ford, GM, and Chrysler keep sending all of our vehicle manufacturing to Mexico, Asia, and India and the European and Japanese manufacturers are building plants here. Toyota, Nissan, Subaru, all make vehicles here. BMW builds here and VW is moving it's headquarters from Auburn Hills to Virginia and is also planning to build a manufacturing plant there as well. So as I see it, US companies who's vehicles depreciate because of perceived quality issues build outside of the US, and the companies that are KNOWN for building the best cars in the world build them here.... Hmm.... wonder if there is any correlation to declining market share... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ford Jellymoulds Posted October 19, 2007 Share Posted October 19, 2007 Toyota are paying $2 an hour in China, how can you complete with that, Toyata component parts supplier Denzo is shifting all its manufacturing from Japan to China, these will all end up in US made Toyotas. But Despite wages of about $2 an hour, foreign automakers face relatively high costs in China, mainly due to their need to import steel and components from abroad. But that is changing as productivity improves and auto parts makers shift factories to China. Toyota's joint venture with Guangzhou Automobile, a state company that was founded as a machining factory before the 1949 communist revolution, is due to have a capacity of 100,000 Camry sedans a year and to add the Vitz subcompact by 2008. The new Nansha factory also has drawn a group of parts suppliers such as Japan's Denso Corp., will spend 30 billion yen (US$265 million; ?210 million) over the next five years to shift production to China. With its partner FAW, Toyota made 240,000 autos in four locations in 2005. It plans to bring another factory online in Tianjin in 2007, and to bring its market share up to 10 percent by 2010. The joint venture began making Toyota's popular hybrid the Prius last year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarpi Posted November 9, 2007 Share Posted November 9, 2007 I'm going to be buying an 08 Expedition soon. Are there any parts of that vehicle made in China?That would seriously bother me. I am tired of supporting the communist Chinese government and military! It seems that just about everything anybody buys lately is labeled "made in China". As an American, I'm getting real tired of that. I don't mind if parts of the vehicle are made in friendly democratic countries. But I feel that by giving our manufacturing expertise to a possible foe, will only come back to bite us in the future. We need to keep our manufacturing jobs here in America! Well that's the end of my rant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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