2 tier wages

[Kimber]

When have I ever expressed any anger at being laid off? I enjoyed my time at Ford, I was paid and treated well. The only "anger" I ever expressed was the fact that Ohio Assembly personnel took jobs at the Cleveland complex and then did not go back when their jobs re-opened. I don't even know if I'd call that anger, more like an observation of what took place and how it affected me personally.

 

Technically I worked as a summer vacation replacement worker, and did that for 3 years in a row. The last year I was there, my foreman wrote me a letter of recommendation and sent it to 7 persons of authority with the company and union including the hourly personnel manager and plant manager. During my time with the company, I attended nearly all of the union meetings and continued to attend the meetings for about a year afterwards. I still have my handwritten notes from the meetings.

 

As for two-tier, I absolutely do not support them. I believe that the jobs should be paid what they are worht, YES taking into account the drudgery and wear and tear on the body. I DO believe that a wage correction needs to take place as wages were raised artificially during good times that are now gone. High wages are great, but if they are unsustainable then you are shooting yourself in the foot. I currently own and operate a business and am aware every day that if I pay myself too much the business will not survive. The same as Ford and labor, I can pay myself more when profits are high and I have to cut way back when times are hard.

Come to think of it, when Robert / BON got rid of the employee forum "I" created and paid for a Ford employee discussion forum on EZ Board. But then you probably weren't around then. Hell, you probably think BON is a Ford entheusiest site and don't know its true beginnings.

 

 

You actually have made an intelligent statement...YOU WOULD NOT PAY YOURSELF AN EXTREME AMOUNT IN YOUR BUSINESS VENTURE IF THE PROFITS/ECONOMY WERE NOT DOING WELL....So why arent these execs. and upper management taking a substancial pay/benefits cut at Ford?? They expect us to!!!! Because they could care less about the average person in the U.S. making a decent living..as long as they keep adding to their ungodly wealth. Your supposed to lead by example....right??....so when they give back in the name of saving this company..I would be glad to do the same...until then......

[Trimdingman]

When have I ever expressed any anger at being laid off? I enjoyed my time at Ford, I was paid and treated well. The only "anger" I ever expressed was the fact that Ohio Assembly personnel took jobs at the Cleveland complex and then did not go back when their jobs re-opened. I don't even know if I'd call that anger, more like an observation of what took place and how it affected me personally.

 

Technically I worked as a summer vacation replacement worker, and did that for 3 years in a row. The last year I was there, my foreman wrote me a letter of recommendation and sent it to 7 persons of authority with the company and union including the hourly personnel manager and plant manager. During my time with the company, I attended nearly all of the union meetings and continued to attend the meetings for about a year afterwards. I still have my handwritten notes from the meetings.

 

As for two-tier, I absolutely do not support them. I believe that the jobs should be paid what they are worht, YES taking into account the drudgery and wear and tear on the body. I DO believe that a wage correction needs to take place as wages were raised artificially during good times that are now gone. High wages are great, but if they are unsustainable then you are shooting yourself in the foot. I currently own and operate a business and am aware every day that if I pay myself too much the business will not survive. The same as Ford and labor, I can pay myself more when profits are high and I have to cut way back when times are hard.

Come to think of it, when Robert / BON got rid of the employee forum "I" created and paid for a Ford employee discussion forum on EZ Board. But then you probably weren't around then. Hell, you probably think BON is a Ford entheusiest site and don't know its true beginnings.

 

There is a big difference between the automotive assembly line and a conventional job. On the line there is ten times as much productivity as there is on the average conventional job. Therefore, even if the assembly line job paid five times as much, it would still be 50% cheaper than the conventional job. Say, a person is installing ips (dashes), he will install more than 60 in one hour. That would be about a dollar each including benefits. To get a dash installed for a dollar is pretty cheap. On a conventional job, it would take hours to install one dash.

[Kimber]

There is a big difference between the automotive assembly line and a conventional job. On the line there is ten times as much productivity as there is on the average conventional job. Therefore, even if the assembly line job paid five times as much, it would still be 50% cheaper than the conventional job. Say, a person is installing ips (dashes), he will install more than 60 in one hour. That would be about a dollar each including benefits. To get a dash installed for a dollar is pretty cheap. On a conventional job, it would take hours to install one dash.

 

Great analogy.

[Captain723]

You are either a company rep. an investor, or a UAW international rep. trying to sell a bad deal. You now have tallied a whopping 3 posts on your post count and in one of them are attacking my friend and a true union brother. If the company files bankruptcy (which they wont) they will still continue building vehicles. (who will be unemployed) No one registers a new account at contract time and speaks with the assurance that we are doomed if we vote the contract down without an agenda. You must have read the articles and have knowledge that we have been organizing outside of the existing bureaucracy, good luck your talking points are now mute Captain723!

The only thing bad is you and you helping in the organizing outside of the existing bureaucracy!!!!

You are a hypocrite who talks out of both sides of your mouth!!!

Out of one side of your mouth you say that "Two Tier is BS and causes division w/ ranks and that is what the company wants to lead to the downfall of the UAW". Then out of the other side of your big mouth you say "I have knowledge that we have been organizing outside of the existing bureaucracy".....I am not a genius but isn't that causing division....organizing against the very people the membership put into office to negotiate for us? I think that you are a company f--k, if you are not, you are awful hateful to the very organization that keeps a roof over your family's head and food on their table. I feel sorry for people like you because you will never be satisfied and forums like this will let you express your absent minded opinion!

[level]

The only thing bad is you and you helping in the organizing outside of the existing bureaucracy!!!!

You are a hypocrite who talks out of both sides of your mouth!!!

Out of one side of your mouth you say that "Two Tier is BS and causes division w/ ranks and that is what the company wants to lead to the downfall of the UAW". Then out of the other side of your big mouth you say "I have knowledge that we have been organizing outside of the existing bureaucracy".....I am not a genius but isn't that causing division....organizing against the very people the membership put into office to negotiate for us? I think that you are a company f--k, if you are not, you are awful hateful to the very organization that keeps a roof over your family's head and food on their table. I feel sorry for people like you because you will never be satisfied and forums like this will let you express your absent minded opinion!

 

People, where the hell did this "two tier" thing even start? Can't anyone read? That is why I hate the newspapers and the radical sites like SOS. One misinforms you unintentionally because they don't know any better- and the other misinforms you intentionally, because they have a personal agenda.

 

It is a new entry level. I am looking at the Chrysler and GM highlights and these entry level even get the 3%, 3% and 4% percent raises the last three years of the contract. On top of that they get first crack at the higher paying jobs when someone retires, so that higher paying work is not going away.

 

Capt723, I don't think these people are reading the same highlights and language as you and me. That's why the SOS site is bullshit. They are misleading people as to the actual language, IT IS NOT A TWO TIER, IT IS NO DIFFERENT THAN OUR CURRENT STARTING PAY, JUST A LITTLE LOWER AND THEY STILL HAVE A RIGHT TO GO TO THE HIGHER PAYING JOBS BY SENIORITY.

 

READ THE LANGUAGE- NOT THE HYPE - IT IS IN BLACK AND WHITE PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Edited October 22, 2007 by level

[Furious1Auto]

People, where the hell did this "two tier" thing even start? Can't anyone read? That is why I hate the newspapers and the radical sites like SOS. One misinforms you unintentionally because they don't know any better- and the other misinforms you intentionally, because they have a personal agenda.

 

It is a new entry level. I am looking at the Chrysler and GM highlights and these entry level even get the 3%, 3% and 4% percent raises the last three years of the contract. On top of that they get first crack at the higher paying jobs when someone retires, so that higher paying work is not going away.

 

Capt723, I don't think these people are reading the same highlights and language as you and me. That's why the SOS site is bullshit. They are misleading people as to the actual language, IT IS NOT A TWO TIER, IT IS NO DIFFERENT THAN OUR CURRENT STARTING PAY, JUST A LITTLE LOWER AND THEY STILL HAVE A RIGHT TO GO TO THE HIGHER PAYING JOBS BY SENIORITY.

 

READ THE LANGUAGE- NOT THE HYPE - IT IS IN BLACK AND WHITE PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You both are sporting new accounts, and clearly have an agenda. People around here know me so I'm not concerned with your accusations towards me! If the Bureaucracy is failing to represent you then it is in need of reform, None of us voted for the international executive board directly. And there aren't even regular elections for these positions yet! Let your buddy Ronny know that if he doesn't negotiate better after the Crystler employee's vote that garbage proposal down, that it will look better on his part to resign rather than being forcefully removed by the membership! It's too late to put the sh-t back in to the horse. I submit that level and Captain723 are international reps trying to do damage control. Here is the sight that they are referring to Soldiers of Solidarity LINK Even people at the international level are opposing the agreements, follow the LINK and you will see what they are hiding! You to guys showed up at the toll booth with not enough change to pay the toll. Don't feel bad the internet lobby is also exposing our politicians and demanding change, it is increasingly making cooperate lobby dollars ineffective because a vote is more valuable than a dollar to the politicians! So you see public debate is good for keeping people informed and holding our reps accountable, and gives people the opportunity to to voice their own opinion!

Edited October 22, 2007 by Furious1Auto

[FAST54DOHC]

i agree furious many supervisors in the plant are on here hiding behind screen names and many of our politicians are on here hiding behind sreen names. i once saw. I once saw jason lucas on here posting during the shift so anyone knows they are on here telling us we are doomed if we vote no and it would be one of the 3 you mentioned. sorry for spelling too early for me to be up and everyone have a great day.

[dark270]

Sos site is a good informative site. they are telling the truth.

[level]

i agree furious many supervisors in the plant are on here hiding behind screen names and many of our politicians are on here hiding behind sreen names. i once saw. I once saw jason lucas on here posting during the shift so anyone knows they are on here telling us we are doomed if we vote no and it would be one of the 3 you mentioned. sorry for spelling too early for me to be up and everyone have a great day.

 

How can everyone here know you? You are just like the rest of us, typing somewhere in the world at a PC. I am not a supervisor or an international rep.

 

You say you saw a supervisor typing on blue oval? I believe the supervisors are the ones stirring up the shit, not the ones telling us to vote yes.

 

What part of anything I have said do you disagree with?

[Furious1Auto]

i agree furious many supervisors in the plant are on here hiding behind screen names and many of our politicians are on here hiding behind sreen names. i once saw. I once saw jason lucas on here posting during the shift so anyone knows they are on here telling us we are doomed if we vote no and it would be one of the 3 you mentioned. sorry for spelling too early for me to be up and everyone have a great day.

I wonder if he gets a bonus for posting on BON? Enjoy the layoff we'll be working our but off soon!

[Furious1Auto]

How can everyone here know you? You are just like the rest of us, typing somewhere in the world at a PC. I am not a supervisor or an international rep.

 

You say you saw a supervisor typing on blue oval? I believe the supervisors are the ones stirring up the shit, not the ones telling us to vote yes.

 

What part of anything I have said do you disagree with?

They know that I'm not a hypocrite through reading my posts, and I have many freinds here that I only know by their screen name and their view points. Do you understand now noob! Dark do you know me?

[dark270]

They know that I'm not a hypocrite through reading my posts, and I have many freinds here that I only know by their screen name and their view points. Do you understand now noob! Dark do you know me?

 

lol, yes i would say that i do! but it is still hard for some people to really 'know' who and what they are, because they only see words.

though, most of us in the computer world are use to this.

[Captain723]

lol, yes i would say that i do! but it is still hard for some people to really 'know' who and what they are, because they only see words.

though, most of us in the computer world are use to this.

Both of you live in fictitious worlds!!!! Level is the only one with a level head.

Let me tell you, that if you are a employee or a member of the UAW then you did vote for the leadership that voted for our great president. You both are probably people that just post and run your mouth and have never voted in any election in your life!! Be part of the solution not the problem. I have yet to hear any solutions out of either of you just negative information!! Get a plan and get to thetable then. Why aren't either of you negotiating our contract?? Have either of you ran for office or are you in office? You are probably sitting in an office posting this sht you salaried sacks!

[Furious1Auto]

Both of you live in fictitious worlds!!!! Level is the only one with a level head.

Let me tell you, that if you are a employee or a member of the UAW then you did vote for the leadership that voted for our great president. You both are probably people that just post and run your mouth and have never voted in any election in your life!! Be part of the solution not the problem. I have yet to hear any solutions out of either of you just negative information!! Get a plan and get to thetable then. Why aren't either of you negotiating our contract?? Have either of you ran for office or are you in office? You are probably sitting in an office posting this sht you salaried sacks!

I already lumped you two together, because you guys are working as a team to sell the contract! You have not been a member long enough to establish any credibility, let alone attack mine!!!!!!!!!!

[dark270]

Both of you live in fictitious worlds!!!! Level is the only one with a level head.

Let me tell you, that if you are a employee or a member of the UAW then you did vote for the leadership that voted for our great president. You both are probably people that just post and run your mouth and have never voted in any election in your life!! Be part of the solution not the problem. I have yet to hear any solutions out of either of you just negative information!! Get a plan and get to thetable then. Why aren't either of you negotiating our contract?? Have either of you ran for office or are you in office? You are probably sitting in an office posting this sht you salaried sacks!

 

gee, i did vote(on pencil and paper) and NOT for th current guys, so what does that tell you?

 

it is a JOKE!

if anyone had any BALLS they would not strike for 6 hours and get this bullshit!!

 

get your brain out of gettle's underwear!

[level]

get your brain out of gettle's underwear!

 

 

Listen Furious, you are wrong, but that was pretty funny.

 

Let's argue the points, along with some bullshit and humor, that is all fine.

Edited October 22, 2007 by level

[Furious1Auto]

Listen Furious, you are wrong, but that was pretty funny.

 

Let's argue the points, along with some bullshit and humor, that is all fine.

Would you like to sight specific points where I'm wrong and quote my rather than Dark when your attacking me please! If I didn't poke fun, the seriousness of the matters at hand would give me the sh-ts!

Edited October 22, 2007 by Furious1Auto

[level]

I already lumped you two together, because you guys are working as a team to sell the contract! You have not been a member long enough to establish any credibility, let alone attack mine!!!!!!!!!!

 

Sorry, hit the wrong reply button.

 

Anyway, credibility is not gained by your number of posts, but by the content of what you say. You are a negative mis and un-informed individual on many of your posts. I have reviewed alot of them.

 

I figure your wife doesn't let you talk at home, and this is your way to let off steam without her knowing.

[dark270]

Listen Furious, you are wrong, but that was pretty funny.

 

Let's argue the points, along with some bullshit and humor, that is all fine.

 

 

yeah really? maybe you should follow the directions

 

GET YOUR HEAD OUT OF GETTLE'S JOCKSTRAP!

 

LOL

Edited October 22, 2007 by dark271

[bustedknuckles]

I was wondering are they going to ask ach employees to take the new lower wage in exchange for a job? what about how they want skilled trades to take over machining departments?, how many pissed off techs will there be then? What about the so called trades umbrellas? It's no secret that management hates skilled trades and that they would love to have all trades doing production and maintenanace. And last of all why in the hell do they need 120 days to determine who is core and who isn't the way it reads they can call any job that isnt actually assembling the car as non core . tell us the truth up front no B.S. please we are all adults we can take the truth for god sake. I'm just physically ill from all this crap

[Captain723]

I was wondering are they going to ask ach employees to take the new lower wage in exchange for a job? what about how they want skilled trades to take over machining departments?, how many pissed off techs will there be then? What about the so called trades umbrellas? It's no secret that management hates skilled trades and that they would love to have all trades doing production and maintenanace. And last of all why in the hell do they need 120 days to determine who is core and who isn't the way it reads they can call any job that isnt actually assembling the car as non core . tell us the truth up front no B.S. please we are all adults we can take the truth for god sake. I'm just physically ill from all this crap

Ford EE's working at ACH? Or are you talking about ACH employees?

Tech's, you must either be from mila or Monroe?

[bustedknuckles]

Ford EE's working at ACH? Or are you talking about ACH employees?

Tech's, you must either be from mila or Monroe?

 

 

Actually I work at a Ford plant what I was trying to say was, are they going to tell people from ach plant, that they will only get the lower tier wage at a ford plant when the ach plant closes or is sold or will they be pushing company wide seniority. It just seems we will be having alot of extra emplyees very soon.

[level]

Actually I work at a Ford plant what I was trying to say was, are they going to tell people from ach plant, that they will only get the lower tier wage at a ford plant when the ach plant closes or is sold or will they be pushing company wide seniority. It just seems we will be having alot of extra emplyees very soon.

 

No they will not take a seniority employee and only give them a entry level job. No.

[Furious1Auto]

No they will not take a seniority employee and only give them a entry level job. No.

That's where you are I'm still waiting for a response!

The highlighted is the cost of doing business and are tax deductible items. The others with the exception of pension liability is covered in my annual income statement as part of my total compensation and account for $45 an hour. I am correct! The pensions on the other hand are funded and few collect for long after retirement, this was also a promise they made do you wish that they take it away. Retiree medical is the biggest unfixed liability and I agree that we should not even have to negotiate this wit the company or our union, but any form of socialized medicine is far off, Even I would vote no against a blanketed national health care, because it covers people who are physically capable and refuse to work! Now if you limit coverage to minors,elderly, disabled, and people who can verify employment than I will agree to a "Merit Health Care System"!

[lepskilledtrades]

What special skills or training qualifies autoworkers for their wages? (crickets chirping)......

 

The wages are based on labor getting together and refusing to work if their demands were not met. Times are different now. If you want to be the last autoworker in the U.S., fine. I personally would like to see a wage correction and have jobs in the future.

 

I believe in one tier! Drop everyone's wages to a reasonable level. If you don't like it, strike. There will be a line around the block of replacement workers.

How about 4 years of schooling and 8000 hrs. of training asshole!!!