what would you do to GOD?

[Pumpmaster]

Thank you very much Pumpmaster!

Ok. I will define "God" as follows:

"The creator of all that is."

Have a great day!

 

That's a fairly typical response from a theist, but it doesn't define what a "god" is. Your answer only describes an action and a result. It's like the difference between WHAT you ARE, and what you DO.

 

So, define "god" without describing an action or a result.

[Trimdingman]

It's easy to claim there is no God. Do you think He is surprised by this arrogant statement?

Many talk this way until they are actually faced with the last beat of their heart. Then all the "talk" is reallity and they are responsible for their statements! It seems like something far away until it happens.

 

Excuses satisfy only those who make them. The God of The Holy Bible is a loving God but don't be fooled in to thinking you will be able to "bargain" with Him! It will be too late.

 

If "He" doesn't exist, then "He" isn't surprised, or anything else. I am 61 years old. I will find out soon enough. I have no fear of defying the Christian God or any other God. The Bible is a remarkable collection of ancient literature, but that's all it is. It was written by regular people. A lot of it is made up fantasies, no different from stories in Greek Mythology or Action Comics. Spending your life studying and believing religion is a waste. Forcing these beliefs on children or gullible adults should be illegal.

 

Let's turn the tables. Say, there is a place that some of us go after death. Only the most intelligent people are chosen. In order to determine which people are the most intelligent, they are tested for gullibility. They are tempted and threatened by false religions. Only those who successfully resist are admitted to the after-life. Since there are thousands of religions, the odds of randomly choosing the correct one would be slim. Therefore, it makes more sense that the path to salvation would be avoidance of all religions. The odds are reduced to 50-50. The hypothesis takes on an air of cosmic elegance. Maybe there is no afterlife. Then, it doesn't matter what you believe. If there is an afterlife, and if belief in a particular religion, or non-belief in any religion is the deciding factor of getting in, then the odds are clearly in favor of non-belief.

Edited February 9, 2008 by Trimdingman

[gunnut69]

If "He" doesn't exist, then "He" isn't surprised, or anything else. I am 61 years old. I will find out soon enough. I have no fear of defying the Christian God or any other God. The Bible is a remarkable collection of ancient literature, but that's all it is. It was written by regular people. A lot of it is made up fantasies, no different from stories in Greek Mythology or Action Comics. Spending your life studying and believing religion is a waste. Forcing these beliefs on children or gullible adults should be illegal.

 

Let's turn the tables. Say, there is a place that some of us go after death. Only the most intelligent people are chosen. In order to determine which people are the most intelligent, they are tested for gullibility. They are tempted and threatened by false religions. Only those who successfully resist are admitted to the after-life. Since there are thousands of religions, the odds of randomly choosing the correct one would be slim. Therefore, it makes more sense that the path to salvation would be avoidance of all religions. The odds are reduced to 50-50. The hypothesis takes on an air of cosmic elegance. Maybe there is no afterlife. Then, it doesn't matter what you believe. If there is an afterlife, and if belief in a particular religion, or non-belief in any religion is the deciding factor of getting in, then the odds are clearly in favor of non-belief.

isnt the scenario you describe in dantes' inferno(somewhat similar at least).dunno if thats the one but i remember some literature (from school,no less) where souls were sent to hell,told it was their fate and given the opportunity to torment other damned souls.in reality this was the trial. those that refused went to heaven and those that tormented the damned were in fact damned themselves.it was also parodied on the simpsons.

[Trimdingman]

isnt the scenario you describe in dantes' inferno(somewhat similar at least).dunno if thats the one but i remember some literature (from school,no less) where souls were sent to hell,told it was their fate and given the opportunity to torment other damned souls.in reality this was the trial. those that refused went to heaven and those that tormented the damned were in fact damned themselves.it was also parodied on the simpsons.

 

 

That is very interesting, gunnut69. I thought that my idea was original. I have never read Dantes' Inferno. I can see parallels, though. I have made a case for why one should not join any religion. It could be a ticket to oblivion.

Edited February 10, 2008 by Trimdingman

[snakesjelly]

I thought that my idea was original. I have never read Dantes' Inferno. I can see parallels, though. I have made a case for why one should not join any religion. It could be a ticket to oblivion.

I WONT DO A MUTHA FUCKIN' THING TO GOD1 I SEE YOU WILL....DUMB ASS!

[Trimdingman]

I WONT DO A MUTHA FUCKIN' THING TO GOD1 I SEE YOU WILL....DUMB ASS!

 

 

This guy seems to believe in a GOD1. I don't know what religion or sect that he belongs to, but I am reasonably sure that if he were to diss this imaginary entity, nothing would happen to him. What rituals he has to perform or sacrifices he has to make to belong to this coven, I can only imagine. Maybe sex is involved. If he knocks up one of those cherubs, he will be paying support for a very long time, and it will be more than a tithe.

Edited February 10, 2008 by Trimdingman

[Trimdingman]

Believing in an invisible entity that is all knowing, all powerful, but needs your money and unquestionable loyalty to the point of being banished to a fiery pit for not following it?

 

No thanks. I don't believe in fairy tales.

 

I don't either, and I am a Leafs fan. They beat Detroit yesterday. :happy feet:

Edited February 10, 2008 by Trimdingman

[Imawhosure]

Trim has made some excellent points. The odds are slim to none that you belong to the ONLY REAL religion, so most of ya are screwed worse than we are, lolol. At least we did not take false gods and put them before HIM!!!!

 

Good job Trim in making the point that MOST of these people are by the odds worshiping false entitys, and are in deep doo on judgement day; if there is such a thing!!!!

[Trimdingman]

Trim has made some excellent points. The odds are slim to none that you belong to the ONLY REAL religion, so most of ya are screwed worse than we are, lolol. At least we did not take false gods and put them before HIM!!!!

 

Good job Trim in making the point that MOST of these people are by the odds worshiping false entitys, and are in deep doo on judgement day; if there is such a thing!!!!

 

If there is anything to all of this, it seems logical that religion is a test of individual intelligence. Why would "God" have us choose from such an assortment? The people who do not believe in a religion would likely be the ones who move to the higher level.

Edited February 10, 2008 by Trimdingman

[Pumpmaster]

I WONT DO A MUTHA FUCKIN' THING TO GOD1 I SEE YOU WILL....DUMB ASS!

 

What the hell is a "GOD1?"

[Pumpmaster]

Trim has made some excellent points. The odds are slim to none that you belong to the ONLY REAL religion, so most of ya are screwed worse than we are, lolol. At least we did not take false gods and put them before HIM!!!!

 

Good job Trim in making the point that MOST of these people are by the odds worshiping false entitys, and are in deep doo on judgement day; if there is such a thing!!!!

 

Ima, what's a "false god?" How do you tell the difference b/t a "real god" and a "false god?"

 

Smile, laugh, and sleep well my friend---'cause there ain't no "judgement day" to worry about. When we die, the curtain falls, and the show's over.

[paris]

Ima, what's a "false god?" How do you tell the difference b/t a "real god" and a "false god?"

 

Smile, laugh, and sleep well my friend---'cause there ain't no "judgement day" to worry about. When we die, the curtain falls, and the show's over.

Pump,

Smile, laugh and sleep well? Because there "ain't no" judgement day? Wouldn't it be a damn shame if there was no God and the only existence you had was 20 or so years in ISSP? If you are so convinced that there "ain't no" God, why do you continue to live the meager existence that you do?

Take the little extra buyout which will be available to you since you are a Pipefitter and move someplace nice. At least try to get a decent existence b4 you become one with the soil.

And, by the way, if you can't deal with the definition of God as I gave it; I understand! It's ok! I wouldn't know what to say either if I were you.

[Trimdingman]

Pump,

Smile, laugh and sleep well? Because there "ain't no" judgement day? Wouldn't it be a damn shame if there was no God and the only existence you had was 20 or so years in ISSP? If you are so convinced that there "ain't no" God, why do you continue to live the meager existence that you do?

Take the little extra buyout which will be available to you since you are a Pipefitter and move someplace nice. At least try to get a decent existence b4 you become one with the soil.

And, by the way, if you can't deal with the definition of God as I gave it; I understand! It's ok! I wouldn't know what to say either if I were you.

 

If there is a creator, then he gave us life to enjoy, not to spend worrying about the hereafter. What makes you think that anything will change based on what you believe will happen? Do you believe that the gods are playing some sort of game, using us as pawns, or do you believe along the lines of us being a hobby of some god's wife, like a garden? If you buy a lottery ticket, the odds of you winning do not change based on whether or not you believe that you are going to win.

 

Advising a Ford pipefitter to take a buyout makes about as much sense as believing in Christianity. Some skilled trades at my plant made over $200,000 last year.

[paris]

If there is a creator, then he gave us life to enjoy, not to spend worrying about the hereafter. What makes you think that anything will change based on what you believe will happen? Do you believe that the gods are playing some sort of game, using us as pawns, or do you believe along the lines of us being a hobby of some god's wife, like a garden? If you buy a lottery ticket, the odds of you winning do not change based on whether or not you believe that you are going to win.

 

Advising a Ford pipefitter to take a buyout makes about as much sense as believing in Christianity. Some skilled trades at my plant made over $200,000 last year.

That's what Im saying Trim. Why spend a meager existance as a Pipefitter in Indianapolis Indiana of all places? If this is all we got, get out there and live it up! Head for the Bahama's or somewhere nice! If all you got is a meager existence in Indiana to look forward to right before the great nothing, I guess maybe Pump and you have the right to be a little shitty about life.

By the way. Show me the guy making 200K in a year as an hourly employee of Ford Motor Company and I'll show you a thief!

[Trimdingman]

That's what Im saying Trim. Why spend a meager existance as a Pipefitter in Indianapolis Indiana of all places? If this is all we got, get out there and live it up! Head for the Bahama's or somewhere nice! If all you got is a meager existence in Indiana to look forward to right before the great nothing, I guess maybe Pump and you have the right to be a little shitty about life.

By the way. Show me the guy making 200K in a year as an hourly employee of Ford Motor Company and I'll show you a thief!

 

A couple of weeks in the sun during the winter would be nice, but I prefer to see the changing seasons. Southern Canada is just about perfect. Retiring to The Bahamas is not realistic for most people.

 

If a $200,000 a year pipefitter is a thief, what do you call a $20,000,000 a year Evangelist, or a 2 billion dollar a year Pope? If the line goes down, the skilled tradesman comes in handy. If Ford is losing hundreds of dollars a minute, the price is cheap. How much would you pay a skilled fireman if the flames were getting close to your Rembrandts? Without overtime, an auto worker assembles on average two and a half cars a week. He takes home about $1000 clear. That means that he assembles a car for about $400. That is cheap labor.

[paris]

A couple of weeks in the sun during the winter would be nice, but I prefer to see the changing seasons. Southern Canada is just about perfect. Retiring to The Bahamas is not realistic for most people.

 

If a $200,000 a year pipefitter is a thief, what do you call a $20,000,000 a year Evangelist, or a 2 billion dollar a year Pope? If the line goes down, the skilled tradesman comes in handy. If Ford is losing hundreds of dollars a minute, the price is cheap. How much would you pay a skilled fireman if the flames were getting close to your Rembrandts? Without overtime, an auto worker assembles on average two and a half cars a week. He takes home about $1000 clear. That means that he assembles a car for about $400. That is cheap labor.

I don't know where you got the 2 1/2 cars a week figure. I don't want to argue about that though. I want to agree with you concerning the Evangelist. I don't know about the Pope because I didn't realize that he made a salary. Maybe he does. Either way, we are in 100 percent agreement on that subject. You guys are missing the point though. The religion itself isn't mandating that you donate a single cent. There are CHURCHES though that "expect" a "donation". You don't have to attend those churches! I do understand that there are costs associated with ANY building and piece of property though. Somebody has to pay the heat bills.

I'll tell you the truth as I see it. I PERSONALLY don't think it's mandatory to attend ANY church to be a good Christian. I don't think that the fact that some "churches" expect "donations" should be a reason for you to doubt ALL religions though.

You seem smarter than that.

By the way, do you live in the Quebec province?

[Trimdingman]

I don't know where you got the 2 1/2 cars a week figure. I don't want to argue about that though. I want to agree with you concerning the Evangelist. I don't know about the Pope because I didn't realize that he made a salary. Maybe he does. Either way, we are in 100 percent agreement on that subject. You guys are missing the point though. The religion itself isn't mandating that you donate a single cent. There are CHURCHES though that "expect" a "donation". You don't have to attend those churches! I do understand that there are costs associated with ANY building and piece of property though. Somebody has to pay the heat bills.

I'll tell you the truth as I see it. I PERSONALLY don't think it's mandatory to attend ANY church to be a good Christian. I don't think that the fact that some "churches" expect "donations" should be a reason for you to doubt ALL religions though.

You seem smarter than that.

By the way, do you live in the Quebec province?

 

A typical assembly plant produces about 550 cars per shift with about 1100 line workers. That's 1/2 car per shift per worker, or 2 1/2 cars per week. The Bible asks for a "tithe", which is 10% of your income. If you do not give it, you are in violation of the religion. I find that religion causes a person to lose perspective. This is a Ford employee forum. I am a Ford employee. The only Canadian Ford plants are in Ontario. The most eastern Ford plant, which is in Oakville, where I work is over three hundred miles from the Quebec border. How could I be living in Quebec?

Edited February 11, 2008 by Trimdingman

[Pumpmaster]

Pump,

Smile, laugh and sleep well? Because there "ain't no" judgement day? Wouldn't it be a damn shame if there was no God and the only existence you had was 20 or so years in ISSP? If you are so convinced that there "ain't no" God, why do you continue to live the meager existence that you do?

Take the little extra buyout which will be available to you since you are a Pipefitter and move someplace nice. At least try to get a decent existence b4 you become one with the soil.

And, by the way, if you can't deal with the definition of God as I gave it; I understand! It's ok! I wouldn't know what to say either if I were you.

 

I can see your a newbie (novice) at this, and that's OK!

 

1) You never answered the question, "WHAT is god?"

2) Wouldn't it be a damn shame if you lived your whole life as a christian---only to die and find out the Hindus were right? Or the Jews? Or the Muslims?!!

3) I have a good life filled with family, friends, and neighbors. I'm active in my community. I really like my job, and (most of) my coworkers. You could say I'm a "happy atheist."

4) Off the topic of religion: why are you afraid to say who you are? Are you hiding something?

Edited February 12, 2008 by Pumpmaster

[Trimdingman]

Either there is an afterlife or there isn't.

 

If there isn't, then this whole thread is for nothing.

 

If there is an afterlife, then either belief in religion gets you in, or you get in for some other reason.

 

If belief in a certain religion gets you in, then you have to make sure that you belong to the right one because religions are mutually exclusive. No more than one can be true because they are all different.

 

Maybe believing in religion disqualifies you from the afterlife.

 

Therefore, if there is an afterlife, you stand a far better chance of going there if you do not believe in any religion because if there is a true religion, you probably belong to the wrong one. If all religions are false, then the non-religious person is correct.

Edited February 12, 2008 by Trimdingman

[paris]

A typical assembly plant produces about 550 cars per shift with about 1100 line workers. That's 1/2 car per shift per worker, or 2 1/2 cars per week. The Bible asks for a "tithe", which is 10% of your income. If you do not give it, you are in violation of the religion. I find that religion causes a person to lose perspective. This is a Ford employee forum. I am a Ford employee. The only Canadian Ford plants are in Ontario. The most eastern Ford plant, which is in Oakville, where I work is over three hundred miles from the Quebec border. How could I be living in Quebec?

Sorry about that Trim. You scared me for a minute when you made the statement about likeing southern Canada. I just made the jump all the way to the Quebec province. Sorry about the INSULT!

I think I mentioned once b4 about my travels to the Quebec province. Quebec City and Montreal to be specific. If I ever have the MIS-Fortune to return, it will be too soon! I have been to both cities dozens of times ON BUSINESS. I was bringing work to them. I felt like we were treated like sh*t! Every time was the same. I kinda think the French Canadians got their bad reputation by EARNING IT! I dont like any of them.

Really makes you wonder where the name Paris came from doesn't it? Another story on another day maybe.

[Dale143]

A bishop described as "one of the most formidable figures in the world of Christian thought" is now challenging the widely held belief that Christians go to heaven when they die.

 

N.T. "Tom" Wright, the fourth most senior cleric in the Church of England who has been praised for his staunch defense of the literal resurrection of Jesus Christ, has published a new book in which he says people do not ascend to God's dwelling place. Instead, deceased believers are in a sleep-like state until God comes back to Earth.

 

"Never at any point do the Gospels or Paul say Jesus has been raised, therefore we are we are all going to heaven," Wright told Time Magazine. "I've often heard people say, 'I'm going to heaven soon, and I won't need this stupid body there, thank goodness.' That's a very damaging distortion, all the more so for being unintentional."

 

When asked to explain why he rejects that typical sentiment, he said, "There are several important respects in which it's unsupported by the New Testament. First, the timing. In the Bible we are told that you die, and enter an intermediate state. [The Apostle] Paul is very clear that Jesus Christ has been raised from the dead already, but that nobody else has yet. Secondly, our physical state. The New Testament says that when Christ does return, the dead will experience a whole new life: not just our soul, but our bodies. And finally, the location. At no point do the resurrection narratives in the four Gospels say, 'Jesus has been raised, therefore we are all going to heaven.' It says that Christ is coming here, to join together the heavens and the Earth in an act of new creation."

 

In the Gospel of John, Jesus himself is quoted as saying, "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." (John 3:13)

In "Surprised by Hope," published by HarperOne, Wright quotes a children's book by California first lady Maria Shriver titled 'What's Heaven,' which describes it as "a beautiful place where you can sit on soft clouds and talk ... . If you're good throughout your life, then you get to go [there]... When your life is finished here on Earth, God sends angels down to take you heaven to be with him."

 

Wright calls that a good example of "what not to say," explaining the biblical truth "is very, very different."

 

When asked by Time about the period between death and the resurrection of the dead, Wright said: "We know that we will be with God and with Christ, resting and being refreshed. Paul writes that it will be conscious, but compared with being bodily alive, it will be like being asleep. The Wisdom of Solomon, a Jewish text from about the same time as Jesus, says 'the souls of the righteous are in the hand of God,' and that seems like a poetic way to put the Christian understanding, as well."

 

He continued: "Our culture is very interested in life after death, but the New Testament is much more interested in what I've called the life after life after death – in the ultimate resurrection into the new heavens and the new Earth. Jesus' resurrection marks the beginning of a restoration that he will complete upon his return. Part of this will be the resurrection of all the dead, who will 'awake,' be embodied and participate in the renewal. John Polkinghorne, a physicist and a priest, has put it this way: 'God will download our software onto his hardware until the time he gives us new hardware to run the software again for ourselves.' That gets to two things nicely: that the period after death is a period when we are in God's presence but not active in our own bodies, and also that the more important transformation will be when we are again embodied and administering Christ's kingdom."

 

Wright, whose 2003 book, "The Resurrection of the Son of God," received widespread acclaim in the Christian community, says many people have been confused about what happens at death by Jesus' statement to a thief who was being executed next to him.

 

He explained: "There is Luke 23, where Jesus says to the good thief on the cross, 'Today you will be with me in paradise.' But in Luke, we know first of all that Christ himself will not be resurrected for three days, so 'paradise' cannot be a resurrection. It has to be an intermediate state. And chapters 4 and 5 of Revelation, where there is a vision of worship in heaven that people imagine describes our worship at the end of time. In fact it's describing the worship that's going on right now. If you read the book through, you see that at the end we don't have a description of heaven, but, as I said, of the new heavens and the new Earth joined together."

 

Wright says much of "traditional Christianity" has been influenced by pagan philosophies.

 

"Two obvious ones are Dante's great poetry, which sets up a heaven, purgatory and hell immediately after death, and Michelangelo's 'Last Judgment' in the Sistine chapel, which portrays heaven and hell as equal and opposite last destinations. Both had enormous influence on Western culture, so much so that many Christians think that is Christianity," he said.

 

While Wright's view may seem stunning to many of today's Christians, similar views were held by some famous names in the Protestant Reformation.

 

In 1520, Martin Luther blasted Catholic ideas "that the soul is immortal; and all these endless monstrosities in the Roman dunghill of decretals."

 

A decade later, English Bible translator and martyr William Tyndale echoed the idea Christians are completely dead until Jesus returns, as he voiced opposition to "heathen" ideas of people having immortal souls at birth:

 

The true faith putteth [setteth forth] the resurrection, which we be warned to look for every hour. The heathen philosophers, denying that, did put [set forth] that the souls did ever live. And the pope joineth the spiritual doctrine of Christ and the fleshly doctrine of philosophers together; things so contrary that they cannot agree, no more than the Spirit and the flesh do in a Christian man. And because the fleshly-minded pope consenteth unto heathen doctrine, therefore he corrupteth the Scripture to stablish it.

[Pumpmaster]

A bishop described as "one of the most formidable figures in the world of Christian thought" is now challenging the widely held belief that Christians go to heaven when they die.

 

N.T. "Tom" Wright, the fourth most senior cleric in the Church of England who has been praised for his staunch defense of the literal resurrection of Jesus Christ, has published a new book in which he says people do not ascend to God's dwelling place. Instead, deceased believers are in a sleep-like state until God comes back to Earth.

 

"Never at any point do the Gospels or Paul say Jesus has been raised, therefore we are we are all going to heaven," Wright told Time Magazine. "I've often heard people say, 'I'm going to heaven soon, and I won't need this stupid body there, thank goodness.' That's a very damaging distortion, all the more so for being unintentional."

 

When asked to explain why he rejects that typical sentiment, he said, "There are several important respects in which it's unsupported by the New Testament. First, the timing. In the Bible we are told that you die, and enter an intermediate state. [The Apostle] Paul is very clear that Jesus Christ has been raised from the dead already, but that nobody else has yet. Secondly, our physical state. The New Testament says that when Christ does return, the dead will experience a whole new life: not just our soul, but our bodies. And finally, the location. At no point do the resurrection narratives in the four Gospels say, 'Jesus has been raised, therefore we are all going to heaven.' It says that Christ is coming here, to join together the heavens and the Earth in an act of new creation."

 

In the Gospel of John, Jesus himself is quoted as saying, "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." (John 3:13)

In "Surprised by Hope," published by HarperOne, Wright quotes a children's book by California first lady Maria Shriver titled 'What's Heaven,' which describes it as "a beautiful place where you can sit on soft clouds and talk ... . If you're good throughout your life, then you get to go [there]... When your life is finished here on Earth, God sends angels down to take you heaven to be with him."

 

Wright calls that a good example of "what not to say," explaining the biblical truth "is very, very different."

 

 

 

When asked by Time about the period between death and the resurrection of the dead, Wright said: "We know that we will be with God and with Christ, resting and being refreshed. Paul writes that it will be conscious, but compared with being bodily alive, it will be like being asleep. The Wisdom of Solomon, a Jewish text from about the same time as Jesus, says 'the souls of the righteous are in the hand of God,' and that seems like a poetic way to put the Christian understanding, as well."

 

He continued: "Our culture is very interested in life after death, but the New Testament is much more interested in what I've called the life after life after death – in the ultimate resurrection into the new heavens and the new Earth. Jesus' resurrection marks the beginning of a restoration that he will complete upon his return. Part of this will be the resurrection of all the dead, who will 'awake,' be embodied and participate in the renewal. John Polkinghorne, a physicist and a priest, has put it this way: 'God will download our software onto his hardware until the time he gives us new hardware to run the software again for ourselves.' That gets to two things nicely: that the period after death is a period when we are in God's presence but not active in our own bodies, and also that the more important transformation will be when we are again embodied and administering Christ's kingdom."

 

Wright, whose 2003 book, "The Resurrection of the Son of God," received widespread acclaim in the Christian community, says many people have been confused about what happens at death by Jesus' statement to a thief who was being executed next to him.

 

He explained: "There is Luke 23, where Jesus says to the good thief on the cross, 'Today you will be with me in paradise.' But in Luke, we know first of all that Christ himself will not be resurrected for three days, so 'paradise' cannot be a resurrection. It has to be an intermediate state. And chapters 4 and 5 of Revelation, where there is a vision of worship in heaven that people imagine describes our worship at the end of time. In fact it's describing the worship that's going on right now. If you read the book through, you see that at the end we don't have a description of heaven, but, as I said, of the new heavens and the new Earth joined together."

 

Wright says much of "traditional Christianity" has been influenced by pagan philosophies.

 

"Two obvious ones are Dante's great poetry, which sets up a heaven, purgatory and hell immediately after death, and Michelangelo's 'Last Judgment' in the Sistine chapel, which portrays heaven and hell as equal and opposite last destinations. Both had enormous influence on Western culture, so much so that many Christians think that is Christianity," he said.

 

While Wright's view may seem stunning to many of today's Christians, similar views were held by some famous names in the Protestant Reformation.

 

In 1520, Martin Luther blasted Catholic ideas "that the soul is immortal; and all these endless monstrosities in the Roman dunghill of decretals."

 

A decade later, English Bible translator and martyr William Tyndale echoed the idea Christians are completely dead until Jesus returns, as he voiced opposition to "heathen" ideas of people having immortal souls at birth:

 

The true faith putteth [setteth forth] the resurrection, which we be warned to look for every hour. The heathen philosophers, denying that, did put [set forth] that the souls did ever live. And the pope joineth the spiritual doctrine of Christ and the fleshly doctrine of philosophers together; things so contrary that they cannot agree, no more than the Spirit and the flesh do in a Christian man. And because the fleshly-minded pope consenteth unto heathen doctrine, therefore he corrupteth the Scripture to stablish it.

 

 

Sounds like more nonsensical babbling about dead people.

[Trimdingman]

Sorry about that Trim. You scared me for a minute when you made the statement about likeing southern Canada. I just made the jump all the way to the Quebec province. Sorry about the INSULT!

I think I mentioned once b4 about my travels to the Quebec province. Quebec City and Montreal to be specific. If I ever have the MIS-Fortune to return, it will be too soon! I have been to both cities dozens of times ON BUSINESS. I was bringing work to them. I felt like we were treated like sh*t! Every time was the same. I kinda think the French Canadians got their bad reputation by EARNING IT! I dont like any of them.

Really makes you wonder where the name Paris came from doesn't it? Another story on another day maybe.

 

I have been to Quebec City, Montreal, Hull, and Riviere Du Loup many times. I have been as far north as Chicoutimi. Quebec is a beautiful place, and the people are wonderful. Just show them respect for their language and culture. I am sure that they appreciate your handouts "bringing work to them". No wonder you couldn't get along with them with such a patronizing attitude. Quebec is not a poor place. They are rich with minerals including gold. It is their strong Catholic beliefs that force them to keep to the ways of their forefathers. They feel an obligation to the ones who came before. You should visit the church at St. Ann De Beaupre near Quebec City. I had to take my truck in to a Ford dealer in Levis last summer. It was the best service I ever had. They even drove us to a restaurant and picked us up afterwards. In 1966, I was on the road with only a few coins in my pocket. I stopped at a restaurant in St. Jean Port Joli for a cup of coffee. The waitress asked me if I wanted anything to eat. I said that I had no money. She gave me a free meal. They are a great and proud people who were trampled on by Anglos for over two centuries after Montcalm's defeat in 1759 on The Plains of Abraham. The English laid seige to and bombarded the fortress all that summer, after burning and looting all the way from Nova Scotia. It was Maurice, "The Rocket" Richard who said enough is enough. Now they are fighting back. Quebecers are Canadians. French and English are foreigners.

Edited February 13, 2008 by Trimdingman

[Trimdingman]

A bishop described as "one of the most formidable figures in the world of Christian thought" is now challenging the widely held belief that Christians go to heaven when they die.

 

N.T. "Tom" Wright, the fourth most senior cleric in the Church of England who has been praised for his staunch defense of the literal resurrection of Jesus Christ, has published a new book in which he says people do not ascend to God's dwelling place. Instead, deceased believers are in a sleep-like state until God comes back to Earth.

 

"Never at any point do the Gospels or Paul say Jesus has been raised, therefore we are we are all going to heaven," Wright told Time Magazine. "I've often heard people say, 'I'm going to heaven soon, and I won't need this stupid body there, thank goodness.' That's a very damaging distortion, all the more so for being unintentional."

 

When asked to explain why he rejects that typical sentiment, he said, "There are several important respects in which it's unsupported by the New Testament. First, the timing. In the Bible we are told that you die, and enter an intermediate state. [The Apostle] Paul is very clear that Jesus Christ has been raised from the dead already, but that nobody else has yet. Secondly, our physical state. The New Testament says that when Christ does return, the dead will experience a whole new life: not just our soul, but our bodies. And finally, the location. At no point do the resurrection narratives in the four Gospels say, 'Jesus has been raised, therefore we are all going to heaven.' It says that Christ is coming here, to join together the heavens and the Earth in an act of new creation."

 

In the Gospel of John, Jesus himself is quoted as saying, "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." (John 3:13)

In "Surprised by Hope," published by HarperOne, Wright quotes a children's book by California first lady Maria Shriver titled 'What's Heaven,' which describes it as "a beautiful place where you can sit on soft clouds and talk ... . If you're good throughout your life, then you get to go [there]... When your life is finished here on Earth, God sends angels down to take you heaven to be with him."

 

Wright calls that a good example of "what not to say," explaining the biblical truth "is very, very different."

 

When asked by Time about the period between death and the resurrection of the dead, Wright said: "We know that we will be with God and with Christ, resting and being refreshed. Paul writes that it will be conscious, but compared with being bodily alive, it will be like being asleep. The Wisdom of Solomon, a Jewish text from about the same time as Jesus, says 'the souls of the righteous are in the hand of God,' and that seems like a poetic way to put the Christian understanding, as well."

 

He continued: "Our culture is very interested in life after death, but the New Testament is much more interested in what I've called the life after life after death – in the ultimate resurrection into the new heavens and the new Earth. Jesus' resurrection marks the beginning of a restoration that he will complete upon his return. Part of this will be the resurrection of all the dead, who will 'awake,' be embodied and participate in the renewal. John Polkinghorne, a physicist and a priest, has put it this way: 'God will download our software onto his hardware until the time he gives us new hardware to run the software again for ourselves.' That gets to two things nicely: that the period after death is a period when we are in God's presence but not active in our own bodies, and also that the more important transformation will be when we are again embodied and administering Christ's kingdom."

 

Wright, whose 2003 book, "The Resurrection of the Son of God," received widespread acclaim in the Christian community, says many people have been confused about what happens at death by Jesus' statement to a thief who was being executed next to him.

 

He explained: "There is Luke 23, where Jesus says to the good thief on the cross, 'Today you will be with me in paradise.' But in Luke, we know first of all that Christ himself will not be resurrected for three days, so 'paradise' cannot be a resurrection. It has to be an intermediate state. And chapters 4 and 5 of Revelation, where there is a vision of worship in heaven that people imagine describes our worship at the end of time. In fact it's describing the worship that's going on right now. If you read the book through, you see that at the end we don't have a description of heaven, but, as I said, of the new heavens and the new Earth joined together."

 

Wright says much of "traditional Christianity" has been influenced by pagan philosophies.

 

"Two obvious ones are Dante's great poetry, which sets up a heaven, purgatory and hell immediately after death, and Michelangelo's 'Last Judgment' in the Sistine chapel, which portrays heaven and hell as equal and opposite last destinations. Both had enormous influence on Western culture, so much so that many Christians think that is Christianity," he said.

 

While Wright's view may seem stunning to many of today's Christians, similar views were held by some famous names in the Protestant Reformation.

 

In 1520, Martin Luther blasted Catholic ideas "that the soul is immortal; and all these endless monstrosities in the Roman dunghill of decretals."

 

A decade later, English Bible translator and martyr William Tyndale echoed the idea Christians are completely dead until Jesus returns, as he voiced opposition to "heathen" ideas of people having immortal souls at birth:

 

The true faith putteth [setteth forth] the resurrection, which we be warned to look for every hour. The heathen philosophers, denying that, did put [set forth] that the souls did ever live. And the pope joineth the spiritual doctrine of Christ and the fleshly doctrine of philosophers together; things so contrary that they cannot agree, no more than the Spirit and the flesh do in a Christian man. And because the fleshly-minded pope consenteth unto heathen doctrine, therefore he corrupteth the Scripture to stablish it.

 

The whole theory is based on interpretations of the Bible. Who wrote the Bible? I say that the Bible was written by regular people who had no way of knowing about what happens after you die, so the way in which you interpret what they wrote is irrevelant to the validity of what they wrote. Maybe their intent is wrong, but your interpretation is right, or vice versa. I think that the chances that these guys knew more than modern science are next to impossible.

[Trimdingman]

If you want to read about an example of the evils of religion, read the last words of Benazir Bhutto just before her assassination. It is in the news to-day.

Edited February 19, 2008 by Trimdingman