trade consolidation

[whereswaldo]

I don't get it I read it, there are 22 core trades, so any work, in any plant, belongs to one of those 22 crafts, if it belongs to a core craft, why is there a question. What part of a millwright or pipefitter task involves reflectors or sensors. If there is a chance that a millwright or pipefitter in the course of their assigned work, is going to interfere with a sensor then have the electrician move it, disconnect it, edit it out...whatever!

Pyro's and EL are combined into EL trade, doing electrical work. Who is doing gas fired audits...Electricians! no such thing as a pyro Ford got rid of them. What is AAI doing? They should be following suit with the 22 core trades, and if the international needs to act as the contract police, then so be it. Can you say whipsawing. Stick to the contract!!!!

Hey I dont disagree with you. My plant doesnt work in teams. Of course with the limbo we are in over a new buyer, we are often being pressured to do the incidentals and more. I do agree all parties should be following one set of rules.

[Westside]

Sure. As long as we don't get rep-type responses like that. Happy Easter !

 

 

Happy Easter.....

[butthead]

I don't get it I read it, there are 22 core trades, so any work, in any plant, belongs to one of those 22 crafts, if it belongs to a core craft, why is there a question. What part of a millwright or pipefitter task involves reflectors or sensors. If there is a chance that a millwright or pipefitter in the course of their assigned work, is going to interfere with a sensor then have the electrician move it, disconnect it, edit it out...whatever!

Pyro's and EL are combined into EL trade, doing electrical work. Who is doing gas fired audits...Electricians! no such thing as a pyro Ford got rid of them. What is AAI doing? They should be following suit with the 22 core trades, and if the international needs to act as the contract police, then so be it. Can you say whipsawing. Stick to the contract!!!!

 

Powerhouse PF and El. can all do the work. They were all trained to do gas train inspections at most plants.

[level]

Powerhouse PF and El. can all do the work. They were all trained to do gas train inspections at most plants.

 

There are different types of gas fired equipment inspections dependent on the equipment used, and different types of inspection and their inherent correction/repair. Do not assume that just anyone can do these. We have had enough explosions, fires and near misses to make this blatantly obvious.

[Pipefitter]

There are different types of gas fired equipment inspections dependent on the equipment used, and different types of inspection and their inherent correction/repair. Do not assume that just anyone can do these. We have had enough explosions, fires and near misses to make this blatantly obvious.

 

That and more injuries coming to a plant near you! It's only a matter of time.

[whereswaldo]

That and more injuries coming to a plant near you! It's only a matter of time.

 

We'll see how Ford's safety record holds up over the next couple yrs or so.

[butthead]

There are different types of gas fired equipment inspections dependent on the equipment used, and different types of inspection and their inherent correction/repair. Do not assume that just anyone can do these. We have had enough explosions, fires and near misses to make this blatantly obvious.

 

One thing about our trades is that those that can will. With enough information its not a big deal I do not see any problems with doing this task.

[level]

One thing about our trades is that those that can will. With enough information its not a big deal I do not see any problems with doing this task.

 

A lot of people don't see a problem doing pipefitting or all mechanical trades work either, but that doesn't mean we'll let them.

[Pipefitter]

A lot of people don't see a problem doing pipefitting or all mechanical trades work either, but that doesn't mean we'll let them.

 

 

I have a problem with it.

Thanks Level!

[level]

I don't get it I read it, there are 22 core trades, so any work, in any plant, belongs to one of those 22 crafts, if it belongs to a core craft, why is there a question. What part of a millwright or pipefitter task involves reflectors or sensors. If there is a chance that a millwright or pipefitter in the course of their assigned work, is going to interfere with a sensor then have the electrician move it, disconnect it, edit it out...whatever!

Pyro's and EL are combined into EL trade, doing electrical work. Who is doing gas fired audits...Electricians! no such thing as a pyro Ford got rid of them. What is AAI doing? They should be following suit with the 22 core trades, and if the international needs to act as the contract police, then so be it. Can you say whipsawing. Stick to the contract!!!!

 

The 2007 contract did not change AAI, or other agreements made in previously enacted COA's or local agreements. It stopped what was happening at a viral rate and leveled the playing field. Certain practices at plants were not retroactively adjusted, as they would have negatively impacted the workforce there. For example, if you went to a plant where they had a sufficient number of Machine Repairmen who did the hydraulic work there, and said we are going to give you some pipefitters from other locations to do your historical work and lay some of you off, they would cry for our heads. We have to respect the fact that those members at that local passed that contract and ratified those practices at some point. However, in plants where the hydraulic and Machine repair were seperate... it will remain so and hydraulic will merge with the pipefitting trade.

 

AAI still has what are called Occupational groupings, where..for example..the mechanical group consists of pipefitters, millwrights, welders, machine repair. It has been that way since the plants inception in 1986 and they did it to have product. While I do not personally agree with it and never will.. it has to be considered. It is no different than a plant that has umbrella overtime for it's various mechanical trades, just doing it a different way with an "occupational grouping". Overtime and overtime equalization are local issues that the local members decide and ratify. Many COA's and MOA's did this, and still do today. It's a mixed bag, depending on where you go due to local practices and lines of demarcation. Your reflector example above is due to a ratified local COA action in exchange for product, and therefore has nothing to do with the national language. What was sought at the national table was to eliminate this whipsawing of the trades for future product guarantee, and nationally place the product while making a general set of rules and classifications to prevent further erosion of our trade lines. The COA's who did include a disclaimer that they would follow the 2007 contract language regarding trades classifications did get a reprieve and adjusted their locals in line with the contract.

[level]

Sorry, double post. Man is this thing slow today!

Edited March 25, 2008 by level

[nvsked]

The 2007 contract did not change AAI, or other agreements made in previously enacted COA's or local agreements. It stopped what was happening at a viral rate and leveled the playing field. Certain practices at plants were not retroactively adjusted, as they would have negatively impacted the workforce there. For example, if you went to a plant where they had a sufficient number of Machine Repairmen who did the hydraulic work there, and said we are going to give you some pipefitters from other locations to do your historical work and lay some of you off, they would cry for our heads. We have to respect the fact that those members at that local passed that contract and ratified those practices at some point. However, in plants where the hydraulic and Machine repair were seperate... it will remain so and hydraulic will merge with the pipefitting trade.

 

Agree!

 

AAI still has what are called Occupational groupings, where..for example..the mechanical group consists of pipefitters, millwrights, welders, machine repair. It has been that way since the plants inception in 1986 and they did it to have product. While I do not personally agree with it and never will.. it has to be considered.

 

So is AAI going to be allowed to put up fences... It has been mentioned from various trade groups that AAI will not accept transfers from other plants because they have non traditional trade groups, including apprentices, so they train their own. Similar to the skilled trade group and the mill maintenance group that existed at the Rouge. I'm sure people at AAI would like the ability to transfer to another plant if economic forces are such, what's the international's opinion on Mechanical Umbrella.... I also heard of tool and die transfering in to AAI from the Rouge could be horse s--- though. I also remember hearing issues when MCC closed and Rouge agreed to except transfers even though it displaced people from the Rouge if memory serves it took like 197- something to hold the Rouge

 

 

It is no different than a plant that has umbrella overtime for it's various mechanical trades, just doing it a different way with an "occupational grouping". Overtime and overtime equalization are local issues that the local members decide and ratify. Many COA's and MOA's did this, and still do today.

 

Which is fine AS LONG AS THE MOA / COA DOES NOT UNDERMINE OR UNDERCUT NATIONAL AGEEMENT.....

 

It's a mixed bag, depending on where you go due to local practices and lines of demarcation. Your reflector example above is due to a ratified local COA action in exchange for product, and therefore has nothing to do with the national language. What was sought at the national table was to eliminate this whipsawing of the trades for future product guarantee, and nationally place the product while making a general set of rules and classifications to prevent further erosion of our trade lines.

 

EXCELLENT MOVE... KUDO'S INTERNATIONAL.... What about buyouts, some plants need to replace exiting members, what if a plant says we have enough trades and contractor usage soars because of staffing levels and no back fill? What's the process!

 

 

The COA's who did include a disclaimer that they would follow the 2007 contract language regarding trades classifications did get a reprieve and adjusted their locals in line with the contract.

 

All locals should be adjusting to national ageement; otherwise, how do you explain the elimination (red lining) previous classifications???

e.g. oilers, machine cleaners etc. if their held by local agreement who cares about the 22 consolidated classifications

[whereswaldo]

The 2007 contract did not change AAI, or other agreements made in previously enacted COA's or local agreements. It stopped what was happening at a viral rate and leveled the playing field. Certain practices at plants were not retroactively adjusted, as they would have negatively impacted the workforce there. For example, if you went to a plant where they had a sufficient number of Machine Repairmen who did the hydraulic work there, and said we are going to give you some pipefitters from other locations to do your historical work and lay some of you off, they would cry for our heads. We have to respect the fact that those members at that local passed that contract and ratified those practices at some point. However, in plants where the hydraulic and Machine repair were seperate... it will remain so and hydraulic will merge with the pipefitting trade.

 

Agree!

 

AAI still has what are called Occupational groupings, where..for example..the mechanical group consists of pipefitters, millwrights, welders, machine repair. It has been that way since the plants inception in 1986 and they did it to have product. While I do not personally agree with it and never will.. it has to be considered.

 

So is AAI going to be allowed to put up fences... It has been mentioned from various trade groups that AAI will not accept transfers from other plants because they have non traditional trade groups, including apprentices, so they train their own. Similar to the skilled trade group and the mill maintenance group that existed at the Rouge. I'm sure people at AAI would like the ability to transfer to another plant if economic forces are such, what's the international's opinion on Mechanical Umbrella.... I also heard of tool and die transfering in to AAI from the Rouge could be horse s--- though. I also remember hearing issues when MCC closed and Rouge agreed to except transfers even though it displaced people from the Rouge if memory serves it took like 197- something to hold the Rouge

 

 

It is no different than a plant that has umbrella overtime for it's various mechanical trades, just doing it a different way with an "occupational grouping". Overtime and overtime equalization are local issues that the local members decide and ratify. Many COA's and MOA's did this, and still do today.

 

Which is fine AS LONG AS THE MOA / COA DOES NOT UNDERMINE OR UNDERCUT NATIONAL AGEEMENT.....

 

It's a mixed bag, depending on where you go due to local practices and lines of demarcation. Your reflector example above is due to a ratified local COA action in exchange for product, and therefore has nothing to do with the national language. What was sought at the national table was to eliminate this whipsawing of the trades for future product guarantee, and nationally place the product while making a general set of rules and classifications to prevent further erosion of our trade lines.

 

EXCELLENT MOVE... KUDO'S INTERNATIONAL.... What about buyouts, some plants need to replace exiting members, what if a plant says we have enough trades and contractor usage soars because of staffing levels and no back fill? What's the process!

 

 

The COA's who did include a disclaimer that they would follow the 2007 contract language regarding trades classifications did get a reprieve and adjusted their locals in line with the contract.

 

All locals should be adjusting to national ageement; otherwise, how do you explain the elimination (red lining) previous classifications???

e.g. oilers, machine cleaners etc. if their held by local agreement who cares about the 22 consolidated classifications

You make some very good points. Very common sense. Please try to leave the other guys text in quotes. It will make the post easier to read. But keep up the good sense !

[nvsked]

You make some very good points. Very common sense. Please try to leave the other guys text in quotes. It will make the post easier to read. But keep up the good sense !

 

1. my bad! Trying to address issue by issue will try bullet points
   

[level]

So is AAI going to be allowed to put up fences... It has been mentioned from various trade groups that AAI will not accept transfers from other plants because they have non traditional trade groups, including apprentices, so they train their own. Similar to the skilled trade group and the mill maintenance group that existed at the Rouge. I'm sure people at AAI would like the ability to transfer to another plant if economic forces are such, what's the international's opinion on Mechanical Umbrella.... I also heard of tool and die transfering in to AAI from the Rouge could be horse s--- though. I also remember hearing issues when MCC closed and Rouge agreed to except transfers even though it displaced people from the Rouge if memory serves it took like 197- something to hold the Rouge

 

As I stated earlier, AAI has been that way since 1986, however, we cannot allow apprentices to be placed on course with journeypersons sitting in the JSP or on layoff, so that practice will change. I agree that it has been done differently in the past and AAI might not find transferees coming in with DOE palatable, but everyone has to do their part in placing our brothers and sisters who need a home. And you are correct, that conversely, the AAI trades would not want to accept a new DOE should the economy turn against them or their product and the shoe was on the other foot. I am sure this will work out for the betterment of all.

 

As, for my personal opinion on mechanical umbrellas- they suck and are a deterioration of our our long defended lines of demarcation by piecemealing certain portions of the particular trades workload. However, many plants have had such for at least the last 18 years. The National agreement did not change current practices in the plants that have been done historically, or that were based on previous ratified actions of the membership. It did not call for retroactivity, except in the more recent COA's that contained a disclaimer.

 

As for the transfers, haven't heard much yet, smoke is clearing on buyout numbers, rto's, expected sales volumes, etc. Too soon to say anything that would be credible, so I will refrain. However, no one will stand for increased contractor usage and a diminished trade level. That will not be tolerated and is subject to the outside contracting grievance/appeal/strike procedures as always. Advanced notification is key to preventing such, and the new language requires the plant to notify the union in advanced regular meetings of such project workloads so as to allow ample time to retain as much work as possible with the new rates negotiated.

 

 

All locals should be adjusting to national ageement; otherwise, how do you explain the elimination (red lining) previous classifications???

e.g. oilers, machine cleaners etc. if their held by local agreement who cares about the 22 consolidated classifications

 

All locals will adjust as the "red-circled" and "will not re-populate" trades attrit through quits, deaths and retirements. That work will be routed to the proper trade remaining - through the local skilled trades governance team. Because it is not an immediate action due to the attrition trigger, it will take time to complete, the buyouts should help expedite these actions though.

[nvsked]

As I stated earlier, AAI has been that way since 1986, however, we cannot allow apprentices to be placed on course with journeypersons sitting in the JSP or on layoff, so that practice will change.

 

 

As for the transfers, haven't heard much yet, smoke is clearing on buyout numbers, rto's, expected sales volumes, etc. Too soon to say anything that would be credible, so I will refrain. However, no one will stand for increased contractor usage and a diminished trade level. That will not be tolerated and is subject to the outside contracting grievance/appeal/strike procedures as always. Advanced notification is key to preventing such, and the new language requires the plant to notify the union in advanced regular meetings of such project workloads so as to allow ample time to retain as much work as possible with the new rates negotiated.

 

 

All locals will adjust as the "red-circled" and "will not re-populate" trades attrit through quits, deaths and retirements. That work will be routed to the proper trade remaining - through the local skilled trades governance team. Because it is not an immediate action due to the attrition trigger, it will take time to complete, the buyouts should help expedite these actions though.

 

• Are we talking company wide when referring to apprenti, or plant by plant. Should an apprentice be placed on course with J-people on layoff? Isn't there a ratio like 10 (j-people) to apprentice or is that local ledgend. Should apprentice's be on layoff and contractors in a plant?
  We need to maintain an apprentice ratio!!!
  

 

• Yeah and plants are playing games with "advanced notification" First off, there are management teams that exist, that feel, we (Ford)are not going to "discuss contrators." We will notify you in advance when they are coming! Advance has been defined as one week prior to one hour after work began. So the new labor agreement with defined labor rates is going to help that cause. BUT, how we can even entertain bringing in a vendor / contractor with trades laidoff (locally) is beyond ME! Obtaining the labor rates via plant chairman is another hurddle; although, it should NOT be, we are after all UNITED. Clear defined impact to the Harbour Report is a slight consideration, if talking with management everything impacts "harbour". (We need published rules regarding harbour)
  

 

• Lastly... It's funny that a plant can talk about reducing specific trades one minute, and in the next sentence "notify" the plant that contractors will be in to preform existing work. I'm all the way to unemployment line, any wonder we're in a economic slump.
  

 

New song ....Whooo'll buy the cars.....

[whereswaldo]

• Are we talking company wide when referring to apprenti, or plant by plant. Should an apprentice be placed on course with J-people on layoff? Isn't there a ratio like 10 (j-people) to apprentice or is that local ledgend. Should apprentice's be on layoff and contractors in a plant?
  We need to maintain an apprentice ratio!!!
  

• Yeah and plants are playing games with "advanced notification" First off, there are management teams that exist, that feel, we (Ford)are not going to "discuss contrators." We will notify you in advance when they are coming! Advance has been defined as one week prior to one hour after work began. So the new labor agreement with defined labor rates is going to help that cause. BUT, how we can even entertain bringing in a vendor / contractor with trades laidoff (locally) is beyond ME! Obtaining the labor rates via plant chairman is another hurddle; although, it should NOT be, we are after all UNITED. Clear defined impact to the Harbour Report is a slight consideration, if talking with management everything impacts "harbour". (We need published rules regarding harbour)
  

• Lastly... It's funny that a plant can talk about reducing specific trades one minute, and in the next sentence "notify" the plant that contractors will be in to preform existing work. I'm all the way to unemployment line, any wonder we're in a economic slump.
  

New song ....Whooo'll buy the cars.....

Nice format!! LOL !! Good questions....But union has been working since 2003 to keep people working.

[whereswaldo]

• Lastly... It's funny that a plant can talk about reducing specific trades one minute, and in the next sentence "notify" the plant that contractors will be in to preform existing work. I'm all the way to unemployment line, any wonder we're in a economic slump.
  

New song ....Whooo'll buy the cars.....

By the way what plant are you at ???

[level]

• Are we talking company wide when referring to apprenti, or plant by plant. Should an apprentice be placed on course with J-people on layoff? Isn't there a ratio like 10 (j-people) to apprentice or is that local ledgend. Should apprentice's be on layoff and contractors in a plant?
  We need to maintain an apprentice ratio!!!
  

 

• Yeah and plants are playing games with "advanced notification" First off, there are management teams that exist, that feel, we (Ford)are not going to "discuss contrators." We will notify you in advance when they are coming! Advance has been defined as one week prior to one hour after work began. So the new labor agreement with defined labor rates is going to help that cause. BUT, how we can even entertain bringing in a vendor / contractor with trades laidoff (locally) is beyond ME! Obtaining the labor rates via plant chairman is another hurddle; although, it should NOT be, we are after all UNITED. Clear defined impact to the Harbour Report is a slight consideration, if talking with management everything impacts "harbour". (We need published rules regarding harbour)
  

 

• Lastly... It's funny that a plant can talk about reducing specific trades one minute, and in the next sentence "notify" the plant that contractors will be in to preform existing work. I'm all the way to unemployment line, any wonder we're in a economic slump.
  

 

New song ....Whooo'll buy the cars.....

 

Yes, Company wide. We cannot place new apprentices anywhere yet when there are Journeypersons laid off or in ACH wanting back. Also we have apprentices and journeypersons who have busted back that have recall rights. Until this clears, new app's should have to wait.

 

On the remainder of the post, I understand it is a constant fight, but it always has been. Many locals are winning this battle by having advanced quarterly project meetings about any expected/upcoming projects with the Union.

[nvsked]

By the way what plant are you at ???

 

You ask some pointed questions here, Pilgrim.... But on a serious note, that's information I'd rather not share....