The cars from Europe will, 'SAVE US'

[Fatso]

Two years is a very unrealistic time frame to retool a plant,get your suppliers up and running and manufacture a completely new line of vehicles.Three years would be lighting speed.Would it make more sense to export some of those vehicles to the USA from Europe right now and see if they sell?Thanks for listening.Good Luck

[CAWphork]

Nothing can save us from our management. I asked this question to our site manager in Windsor when the Way Forward v1.0 was announced, and he said it just wasn't as easy as bringing vehicles over here. Quite obviously this reeks of desperation.

[Fatso]

I hope it does work I just,,,my confidence level is zero right now.By the way I do respect the CAW and the way that you guys and gals support Ford Motor Company and the fact that the CAW does not play 'low ball'.You are not the problem.You are an asset.Good Luck.What about them Red Wings,,,man Pittsburgh was tough to beat.All those one goal games.There is no greater pressure on a single position in any major sport than a hockey goalie.

Edited July 26, 2008 by Fatso

[Len_A]

Two years is a very unrealistic time frame to retool a plant,get your suppliers up and running and manufacture a completely new line of vehicles.Three years would be lighting speed.Would it make more sense to export some of those vehicles to the USA from Europe right now and see if they sell?Thanks for listening.Good Luck

It would be great, but it would take just as long to modify them to U.S. emissions and safety standards, and then get them certified. Looks like they're ordering the tooling and lining up the supplier base at the same time.

 

I'm just pleased as can be that Detroit at least gets some of these cars to build.

 

BTW, my confidence level isn't any better than yours. We're all in good frickin' company.

[Mr.Roboto]

Both the Focus and Contour were duplicates of European models, so it can be done.

 

Back in the last rear gas crunch (70's) Ford brought in European powerplants in the form of the 2.0L OHC and 2.7L Cologne V6 to power the Pintos and Mustang II's. The Mustang II had a European twin as the Capri, although I do not know which one came first.

[Fatso]

My guess is that the UAW contract will be opened up before any serious new production starts ,pension`s frozen?Jobs at $15 an hour?How in the world can the big three executives consistently be surprised by higher gasoline prices every 10 years or so?Gas electric hybrids seem to be the latest way forward.Ethanol was the old way forward.

Edited July 28, 2008 by Fatso

[FordTrucklover]

My guess is that the UAW contract will be opened up before any serious new production starts ,pension`s frozen?Jobs at $15 an hour?How in the world can the big three executives consistently be surprised by higher gasoline prices every 10 years or so?Gas electric hybrids seem to be the latest way forward.Ethanol was the old way forward.

 

Wrong. Doomsday speak. UAW HATES thought of openin any contract!....... UNLESS maybe these

companys are headed for bankrupcy absolutely! But...next contract we r screwed i think...18.50 p/hr

if ur lucky IMO.

[fantasyfrank]

Wrong. Doomsday speak. UAW HATES thought of openin any contract!....... UNLESS maybe these

companys are headed for bankrupcy absolutely! But...next contract we r screwed i think...18.50 p/hr

if ur lucky IMO.

That's what everybody was saying about the current contract.

[TheScrutenizer]

Why is it doable in less than 2 years?

 

Because first, these models are already designed, the process has already been proven, and the tooling has already been designed. The expensive and time conusming part of these "new models" is already done, that's the economy of a "global company". Not having to design develope test/prove out a vehicle from a clean sheet of paper.

 

Second, most of the body shops installed within the last decade or 2 have a built in flexibility. You can go from a large platform to a smaller platform without much modfication, it's much harder to go from small to big. The largest modifications will be in the "marriage cells" (framing bucks, etc.) where parts are added to an assembly, otherwise, tooling is kit changes, and reprogramming robots, probably a bit of work in closures as well. Final area is fairly simple, moving racks and parts supplies, maybe some fresh ergonomics and installation equipment. Paint, reprogram robots, minor mods to transfers and conveyers. Oh, and train the PEOPLE.

 

Third, the exchange rate of US to Euro favors production in the US for these models, and they won't necessarily cost as much domesticly as they do in Europe (if you were to take the European price, do a currency exchange to dollars) my feeling is we can build them for less here, and possibly even have such a favorable exchange rate as to be able to export if needed.

 

Fourth, the last 2 items, emissions and NHTSA compliance certification aren't the huge hurtles they are percieved to be. Modern computer controlled engines can be tuned rather easily, (look at all the aftermarket computers availble for our cars and trucks). Now the turbo deisel is a different animal, I'm talking gas engines. Sheet metal is another story, but I don;t think the Euro crash standards are too much lower than our own, It's not like Asia or India. Heck, specify a different alloy here, thicker sheet stock there. But you don't have to redesign the whole body to get compliance.

 

Fifth, the automotive press has been lamenting the lack of euro models being offered in the US for as long as I can remember, I think the time is right to let them eat cake!

 

I'm sorry, I'm not as pessimistic as the rest of you folks, I think that we are going to pull this off, and be sucessful. There are others who would agree with me.

 

http://www.autoextremist.com/current/

 

I'm not going to go into complete cell by cell dissertation on how to make the changeover, but it's a lot easier than most here are aware of. Have a nice day! :shades:

[Len_A]

Why is it doable in less than 2 years?

 

Because first, these models are already designed, the process has already been proven, and the tooling has already been designed. The expensive and time conusming part of these "new models" is already done, that's the economy of a "global company". Not having to design develope test/prove out a vehicle from a clean sheet of paper.

 

Second, most of the body shops installed within the last decade or 2 have a built in flexibility. You can go from a large platform to a smaller platform without much modfication, it's much harder to go from small to big. The largest modifications will be in the "marriage cells" (framing bucks, etc.) where parts are added to an assembly, otherwise, tooling is kit changes, and reprogramming robots, probably a bit of work in closures as well. Final area is fairly simple, moving racks and parts supplies, maybe some fresh ergonomics and installation equipment. Paint, reprogram robots, minor mods to transfers and conveyers. Oh, and train the PEOPLE.

 

Third, the exchange rate of US to Euro favors production in the US for these models, and they won't necessarily cost as much domesticly as they do in Europe (if you were to take the European price, do a currency exchange to dollars) my feeling is we can build them for less here, and possibly even have such a favorable exchange rate as to be able to export if needed.

 

Fourth, the last 2 items, emissions and NHTSA compliance certification aren't the huge hurtles they are percieved to be. Modern computer controlled engines can be tuned rather easily, (look at all the aftermarket computers availble for our cars and trucks). Now the turbo deisel is a different animal, I'm talking gas engines. Sheet metal is another story, but I don;t think the Euro crash standards are too much lower than our own, It's not like Asia or India. Heck, specify a different alloy here, thicker sheet stock there. But you don't have to redesign the whole body to get compliance.

 

Fifth, the automotive press has been lamenting the lack of euro models being offered in the US for as long as I can remember, I think the time is right to let them eat cake!

 

I'm sorry, I'm not as pessimistic as the rest of you folks, I think that we are going to pull this off, and be sucessful. There are others who would agree with me.

 

http://www.autoextremist.com/current/

 

I'm not going to go into complete cell by cell dissertation on how to make the changeover, but it's a lot easier than most here are aware of. Have a nice day! :shades:

If it's easier than thought, then I, for one, would be very happy to be proven wrong. If it can get done quickly, then fantastic. Sooner they're up for sale, the better, in my view.

[F150 Man]

Both the Focus and Contour were duplicates of European models, so it can be done.

 

That's a bit of a stretch. They were close looking down from 50,000 feet. Uniquely different in most regards on a part by part basis.

[F150 Man]

Why is it doable in less than 2 years?.....I'm sorry, I'm not as pessimistic as the rest of you folks, I think that we are going to pull this off, and be sucessful. There are others who would agree with me.

 

http://www.autoextremist.com/current/

 

I'm not going to go into complete cell by cell dissertation on how to make the changeover, but it's a lot easier than most here are aware of. Have a nice day! :shades:

 

Pollyanna, Nothing is impossible for the man who does not have to actually do it!

[TheScrutenizer]

Pollyanna, Nothing is impossible for the man who does not have to actually do it!

I've been involved in the launch of 6 body shops over the last 18 years, hands on at the tooling and automation level.

polly wanna cracker?

Have a GREAT day.

[Edsel]

It would be great, but it would take just as long to modify them to U.S. emissions and safety standards, and then get them certified. Looks like they're ordering the tooling and lining up the supplier base at the same time.

 

I'm just pleased as can be that Detroit at least gets some of these cars to build.

 

BTW, my confidence level isn't any better than yours. We're all in good frickin' company.

 

The European cars far surpass N.A. safety standards. They also have the toughest environmental regulations. All manufacturers that sell their products in Europe must insure that a high percentage of materials used must be 100% recyclable/reusable. Cradle to grave. Believe it or not Nasser thought it was going to happen here. That's why he started buying wrecking yards. So, Ford, again I ask, WHY DON'T YOU BRING EUROPEAN MODELS HERE!!!!

 

Ed.

 

I feel helpless working for the Ford Motor Company, Henry would have most of todays management thrown in jail! Why? fill in the blanks, ___________, _____________, ______________, ______________.

[Fatso]

Wrong. Doomsday speak. UAW HATES thought of openin any contract!....... UNLESS maybe these

companys are headed for bankrupcy absolutely! But...next contract we r screwed i think...18.50 p/hr

if ur lucky IMO.

The UAW has no leverage,,,,,NADA.Wanna strike?Okay then the company is bankrupt {please do not say that Kerkorian will 'donate' billions to prevent this}Let me tell you something.I was working at Wixom Assembly when the Welder Repair Classification was eliminated and the job was handed over almost entirely to the electricians.Everything is negotiable.The UAW has opened contracts in the past in order to assist the company.

[Fatso]

If it's easier than thought, then I, for one, would be very happy to be proven wrong. If it can get done quickly, then fantastic. Sooner they're up for sale, the better, in my view.

I guess it also depends on when you start counting 'two years' for the sake of argument,I will agree.July 2010 the 'Eurocars' are rolling out of Ford Assembly plants.This is good.Now next question,how long before Ford is profitable again?I ask because as part of the "biggest home equity loan in history",Mullaly, Ford is contractually obligated to show a profit in 2009.All I mentioned was,' test marketing' maybe the designs need to be tweaked in order to satisfy American tastes and pointed out the fact that two years, to retool,seems too optimistic.Take that retooling money and offer Truck Customers Gas cards when they purchase a new F-150.Take that retooling money and put it into fuel technology reasearch.Who even knows if Ford can exist without trucks?Toot-Toot-Tootsie,,,don`t hang up until Marvin says,,,"GOOD-BYE"

Edited July 28, 2008 by Fatso

[TheScrutenizer]

Now next question,how long before Ford is profitable again?I ask because as part of the "biggest home equity loan in history",Mullaly Ford is contractually obligated to show a profit in 2009.

 

Anyone that can answer this question accurately would not be reading this forum, and more likely would be making millions in Vegas. We hope that those who have access to ALL the FACTS have made reasonably accurate predictions. In addition, Mulally Ford are contractualy obligated to fulfill their fiduciary responsibility as company executives, and run the company with the intent to produce a profit. It is a legal responsibility to the board and the shareholders(I'm one of the latter).

 

All I mentioned was''test marketing' maybe the designs need to be tweaked in order to satisfy American tastes and pointed out the fact that two years, to retool,seems too optimistic.

 

Test marketing is simply a waste of money for these platforms at this time. The automotive press has been raving about the European models for years, and why aren't they available here, etc. What, people in europe got 3 legs or something? If you would take the time to look at them before passing judgement you might be pleasantly suprised. the products are offered in multiple trim levels to suit many budgets, unlike here where you have to either take what the guy at the dealer ship ordered, or have a car special ordered. Yes there are options too. What is important is these platforms are availble now, that is where the savings is, we don't have to come up with 5 new models from a blank sheet, now that would take 3-4 years easy, AND cost the hundreds of millions of dollars everyone keeps bringing up. The designs are mature, the bugs have been addressed, the manufacturing process is a known quantity. So if one is worried about how soon to profitability, why in the world would you want to spend money unecessarily, delay new product unecessarily? WE DON"T HAVE ANYTHING ELSE TO SELL, RIGHT NOW. This is what we have now, and if it doesn't fly we're toast anyway, because the trucks and suvs aren't moving off the lots any more.

 

 

Take that retooling money and offer Truck Customers Gas cards when they purchase a new F-150.Take that retooling money and put it into fuel technology reasearch.Who even knows if Ford can exist without trucks?

 

The company is actively engaged in several levels of technology research, not limited to fuels. The internal combustion engine is just about tweaked as far as it can go in terms of squeezing out more economy. It's getting to the point where it takse millions just to squeeze a half percent more out of a design. the problem you see is most of the energy is wasted as heat, more than half. the easiest thing is to cut wieght first (smaller) and then cut drag (which increases geometricly with accelaration). So smaller more streamlined cars.

I don't understand the notion of not advancing product that the market is responding to(people are buying small cars). Subsidising the sales of platforms that no one wants to buy doesn't seem to me to be a prudent use of capital. I honestly don't see how that can save the company, only accelerate the drain on finances.

The last question you ask is really the crux of our situation, if we don't come up with non-truck products, we will fail for certain, because the trucks aren't selling any more.

Have a SPECTACULAR day! :hyper:

[davdog]

Anyone that can answer this question accurately would not be reading this forum, and more likely would be making millions in Vegas. We hope that those who have access to ALL the FACTS have made reasonably accurate predictions. In addition, Mulally Ford are contractualy obligated to fulfill their fiduciary responsibility as company executives, and run the company with the intent to produce a profit. It is a legal responsibility to the board and the shareholders(I'm one of the latter).

 

 

 

Test marketing is simply a waste of money for these platforms at this time. The automotive press has been raving about the European models for years, and why aren't they available here, etc. What, people in europe got 3 legs or something? If you would take the time to look at them before passing judgement you might be pleasantly suprised. the products are offered in multiple trim levels to suit many budgets, unlike here where you have to either take what the guy at the dealer ship ordered, or have a car special ordered. Yes there are options too. What is important is these platforms are availble now, that is where the savings is, we don't have to come up with 5 new models from a blank sheet, now that would take 3-4 years easy, AND cost the hundreds of millions of dollars everyone keeps bringing up. The designs are mature, the bugs have been addressed, the manufacturing process is a known quantity. So if one is worried about how soon to profitability, why in the world would you want to spend money unecessarily, delay new product unecessarily? WE DON"T HAVE ANYTHING ELSE TO SELL, RIGHT NOW. This is what we have now, and if it doesn't fly we're toast anyway, because the trucks and suvs aren't moving off the lots any more.

 

 

 

 

The company is actively engaged in several levels of technology research, not limited to fuels. The internal combustion engine is just about tweaked as far as it can go in terms of squeezing out more economy. It's getting to the point where it takse millions just to squeeze a half percent more out of a design. the problem you see is most of the energy is wasted as heat, more than half. the easiest thing is to cut wieght first (smaller) and then cut drag (which increases geometricly with accelaration). So smaller more streamlined cars.

I don't understand the notion of not advancing product that the market is responding to(people are buying small cars). Subsidising the sales of platforms that no one wants to buy doesn't seem to me to be a prudent use of capital. I honestly don't see how that can save the company, only accelerate the drain on finances.

The last question you ask is really the crux of our situation, if we don't come up with non-truck products, we will fail for certain, because the trucks aren't selling any more.

Have a SPECTACULAR day! :hyper:

 

BUT the Ford business model is not built around low margin small cars. they're losing a gold mine in trucks and SUVs and can't replace those margins with small cars unless they are going to compete in the high end small car market.

[Twincam Harley]

Now next question,how long before Ford is profitable again?I ask because as part of the "biggest home equity loan in history",Mullaly, Ford is contractually obligated to show a profit in 2009.

 

I must have missed a document or statement that says this. Please refer me to a reliable source where I can view verbage that states this. Thanks.

[TheScrutenizer]

BUT the Ford business model is not built around low margin small cars. they're losing a gold mine in trucks and SUVs and can't replace those margins with small cars unless they are going to compete in the high end small car market.

Exactly why we now have a new business model.

Have a super day!

[davdog]

Exactly why we now have a new business model.

Have a super day!

 

They can't keep cutting to increase those margins. That's a good short term fix but it isn't a long term solution. How do they make money off of small cars given the costs of a 100 year old company?

[TheEagle]

The UAW has no leverage,,,,,NADA.Wanna strike?Okay then the company is bankrupt {please do not say that Kerkorian will 'donate' billions to prevent this}Let me tell you something.I was working at Wixom Assembly when the Welder Repair Classification was eliminated and the job was handed over almost entirely to the electricians.Everything is negotiable.The UAW has opened contracts in the past in order to assist the company.

 

Welder fixture repair is a Union suck ass job...Not a trade.

Should have been a toolmaker/electrician upgrade not a production upgrade.

Now, I understand why I never liked you. You are not a tradesman.

 

Next you'll be telling everyone that cuttergrind is a trade.

[TheScrutenizer]

They can't keep cutting to increase those margins. That's a good short term fix but it isn't a long term solution. How do they make money off of small cars given the costs of a 100 year old company?

this just out today answers your question directly.

 

Executive Q&A with Alan Mulally,

President and Chief Executive Officer

Q: Will we be able to achieve adequate profitability with the anticipated changes to our product mix (more small cars in the U.S. market)?

 

-- Michael Schneider, Research & Advanced Engineering

 

A: We expect to earn respectable returns on our small car portfolio in North America as we do in many other parts of the world. This is due, in part, to fully competitive revenues that will be supported by exciting designs, world-class craftsmanship, leading-edge infotainment systems, and class-leading fuel economy -- attributes customers want and value. On the cost side, we will benefit from economies of scale from leveraging global platforms and parts through execution of our One Ford strategy. This should provide us with material cost reduction opportunities, as well as structural cost savings through shared engineering and tooling.

 

We also will benefit from building these great new products in flexible assembly plants where we expect capacity will match consumer demand. These products, along with the other vehicles in our lineup, will benefit from the lean structure we have put in place over the past two and a half years -- and which we are continuing to improve. Finally, the small car portfolio, along with all the other vehicles we will offer in North America, will benefit from the range of business improvements we have achieved and are working to accelerate there such as quality that is among the best in industry, an improved brand image, dealership consolidation, disposition of the ACH entities, and so forth.

 

 

Have a wonderful day!

[Imawhosure]

It goes without saying that if the automotive press raves about them, then the drumbeat is for us to buy them, lol. (just ask Toyoty and Honda)

 

The more the small car market is watered down, the more our offshore friends will be put under pressure. (gee, that is to bad) But, if our products are seen as totally inferior, then we will still be in deep doo.

 

The Euro models will only be a stop-gap that will no doubt succeed; as all new model usually succeed. What comes down the pike in 2011 and beyond will be the company put on the line. Failure is not an option.

 

Keep those fingers crossed, I know I am!

[Fatso]

Welder fixture repair is a Union suck ass job...Not a trade.

Should have been a toolmaker/electrician upgrade not a production upgrade.

Now, I understand why I never liked you. You are not a tradesman.

 

Next you'll be telling everyone that cuttergrind is a trade.

You do not even know me so If you do not like me it is because you are a generally shitty person.I am glad you do not like me.

Edited July 29, 2008 by Fatso