Who are these people?

[Milstar 04 Sport]

SLAM. Slam. Slam. Slam. Like a scene from a gathering of Mafia dons, the doors of 30 black Lincolns slammed shut as their besuited occupants stepped out into a Manhattan downpour – and into a global financial storm.

 

Link: http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/latestnews...s-of.4494032.jp

 

Note, they were or are the financial elite. They were not being driven in D3's.

 

They are the money changers of the world, arriving in Panthers. For a very important meeting.

 

Lincolns are the power of the world. Too bad that Ford does not understand that.

 

Some will stay in power, some will lose in power, but I bet that the ones that die, will be driven in a Lincoln, until they die!

 

The ones who stay, will be driven in a Lincoln, until Ford cancells the Panther.

 

When Ford cancells the panther platform, they will die, as the money changers will no longer support Ford.

[twintornados]

When Ford cancels the panther platform, they will die, as the money changers will no longer support Ford.

I believe that Panther will be replaced....not wholesale canceled as some fear....wouldn't it be grand if Ford rolled out the global rear wheel drive replacement and called it Panther21 instead of GRWD?

[SysEng]

I believe that Panther will be replaced....not wholesale canceled as some fear....wouldn't it be grand if Ford rolled out the global rear wheel drive replacement and called it Panther21 instead of GRWD?

 

Problem, is that we "panther" types don't actually trust Ford to get it right.

 

And since we depend on these cars in a very real way, we don't want to see a "replacement".

 

When you ( for e.g. ) suggest a new "global RWD replacement" :rolleyes: ,

we simply tune you out, because that car would be D3 ... great for making

a Volvo S80, but no business in an American style car... let alone a full size one

 

Besides, other than restyling there are no really pressing issues on these cars.

 

So why would we or Ford bother?

 

 

 

 

 

I can roll up all the updates the "panthers" SHOULD have in one post;

 

 

1) Update Exterior Styling

 

2) Update Interior Styling ( modern glass cockpit and add GPS )

 

3) Update rear frame ( they already did the front frame just fine ) for

standard towing capability and IRS

 

4) Update engine & tranny to DOHC4V4.6L and 6R80 tranny

 

Thats pretty much it. All pretty much from the existing parts bin.

 

Don't buy the rubbish about out of date. Any Mustang driver will tell

you a "panther" pretty much drives and handles like a 'stang at

legal speeds. Its when you want to go beyond that that you

want a 'stang... or a BOMBed "panther" :shades:

[twintornados]

Problem, is that we "panther" types don't actually trust Ford to get it right.

 

And since we depend on these cars in a very real way, we don't want to see a "replacement".

 

When you ( for e.g. ) suggest a new "global RWD replacement" :rolleyes: ,

we simply tune you out, because that car would be D3 ... great for making

a Volvo S80, but no business in an American style car... let alone a full size one

 

Besides, other than restyling there are no really pressing issues on these cars.

 

So why would we or Ford bother?

 

I can roll up all the updates the "panthers" SHOULD have in one post;

 

1) Update Exterior Styling

 

2) Update Interior Styling ( modern glass cockpit and add GPS )

 

3) Update rear frame ( they already did the front frame just fine ) for

standard towing capability and IRS

 

4) Update engine & tranny to DOHC4V4.6L and 6R80 tranny

 

Thats pretty much it. All pretty much from the existing parts bin.

 

Don't buy the rubbish about out of date. Any Mustang driver will tell

you a "panther" pretty much drives and handles like a 'stang at

legal speeds. Its when you want to go beyond that that you

want a 'stang... or a BOMBed "panther" :shades:

You don't "trust" Ford to "get it right"....??? Ford had been building the Panther for 30+ years...I trust that any replacement will answer all of the concerns of its client base.

 

I don't believe that Global Rear Wheel Drive equates to "D3".....one only needs to look at Ford of Australia to see that the Falcon has "ZERO" in relation to anything even remotely "D3"

 

All your suggestions have merit...but why would you limit the car to a 4.6L....when a new 5.0L is just around the corner, as well as "hairy chest" EcoBoost engines that will make the next Crown Victoria scream...

 

And I will never believe that a Mustang and a Crown Victoria are even close in driving dynamics

Edited September 24, 2008 by twintornados

[WC-MAN]

We don't trust Ford to get it right because American car companies have a 100% failure rate in continuing the large American sedan. The only reason the Panther seems old is the lack of updates and not integrating newer features into the cars. The Taurus was FWD, Unibody, and basically started the modern FWD mid-sized sedan. But by the time it was cancelled IT SEEMED OLD AND OUT OF DATE! Add modern tech, update the tranny (maybe), set it up for 4cy-hybrids (Taxi anyone), and restyle the outside. But what we fear is that Ford, once again, will try to reinvent the wheel and serve up a huge steaming pile of crap.

 

It seems to me that all of the people cheerleading the Panther's demise are the same people who would never buy one, or its replacement.

[armadamaster]

Problem, is that we "panther" types don't actually trust Ford to get it right.

 

And since we depend on these cars in a very real way, we don't want to see a "replacement".

 

When you ( for e.g. ) suggest a new "global RWD replacement" :rolleyes: ,

we simply tune you out, because that car would be D3 ... great for making

a Volvo S80, but no business in an American style car... let alone a full size one

 

Besides, other than restyling there are no really pressing issues on these cars.

 

So why would we or Ford bother?

 

 

 

 

 

I can roll up all the updates the "panthers" SHOULD have in one post;

 

 

1) Update Exterior Styling

 

2) Update Interior Styling ( modern glass cockpit and add GPS )

 

3) Update rear frame ( they already did the front frame just fine ) for

standard towing capability and IRS

 

4) Update engine & tranny to DOHC4V4.6L and 6R80 tranny

 

Thats pretty much it. All pretty much from the existing parts bin.

 

Don't buy the rubbish about out of date. Any Mustang driver will tell

you a "panther" pretty much drives and handles like a 'stang at

legal speeds. Its when you want to go beyond that that you

want a 'stang... or a BOMBed "panther" :shades:

 

Well said!

 

And I will never believe that a Mustang and a Crown Victoria are even close in driving dynamics

 

Wander over to Crownvic.net, you'll find a LOT of former and current Stang owners saying the opposite of that.

[GhostTiger]

Well said!

 

 

 

Wander over to Crownvic.net, you'll find a LOT of former and current Stang owners saying the opposite of that.

 

I drive an 07 'stang (my only car), and have driven new CV/Gm's (Sport, PI, and regular) at the plant...and they do NOT drive alike at all. The CV is great car for what it does, but don't kid yourself. It is not a sports car.

[WC-MAN]

'stang at legal speeds.

 

Your probably overlooking the "at legal speeds" part. That means 25 mph on that exit ramp. At those speeds, the MGM's primary disadvantage, weight, would have very little detrimental effect. The only reason a pickup wouldn't basically handle "like a 'stang" at posted legal speeds is its high COG and weight distribution.

 

I also ask you what mustang do you have? Of course a GT handles better, but the base mustang is the more true comparison, unless you've been driving Police Interceptors around!

 

Look, I had an '86 Camaro RS, and my dad had an '88 Caprice. And at legal speeds, I would say the cars handeled similar, with the Camaro getting a slight advantage for less floatiness. However, at post-legal speeds, the Camaro definately had an advantage.

 

I don't think the MGM is going to handles like a mustang at high speeds, it weighs far too much. But I can tell you from experience that if you are calling the panthers "floaty" or using terms like "wallows" to describe the handling, you haven't driven one in the last 15 years, and I'd bet probably never. For big heavy cars, the panthers'll more than hold their own against family sedans.

 

The first time a curve sneaks up on you, you appreciate RWD, because it won't plow ahead.

[GhostTiger]

Your probably overlooking the "at legal speeds" part. That means 25 mph on that exit ramp. At those speeds, the MGM's primary disadvantage, weight, would have very little detrimental effect. The only reason a pickup wouldn't basically handle "like a 'stang" at posted legal speeds is its high COG and weight distribution.

 

I also ask you what mustang do you have? Of course a GT handles better, but the base mustang is the more true comparison, unless you've been driving Police Interceptors around!

 

Look, I had an '86 Camaro RS, and my dad had an '88 Caprice. And at legal speeds, I would say the cars handeled similar, with the Camaro getting a slight advantage for less floatiness. However, at post-legal speeds, the Camaro definately had an advantage.

 

I don't think the MGM is going to handles like a mustang at high speeds, it weighs far too much. But I can tell you from experience that if you are calling the panthers "floaty" or using terms like "wallows" to describe the handling, you haven't driven one in the last 15 years, and I'd bet probably never. For big heavy cars, the panthers'll more than hold their own against family sedans.

 

The first time a curve sneaks up on you, you appreciate RWD, because it won't plow ahead.

 

Not sure if you're responding to my post, but I do drive a GT...and I AM talking about Police units, new, at the plant... (I work there)...and at legal speeds. They have a v-8, and are rear drive, but that's about all the 2 cars have in common. Even the rough-riding police units still wallow at slow speed. I honestly don't see the trade-off there.....must just be a longer-lasting suspension. I found the best ride actually came from the discontinued Sport model. But it's no Mustang, even at low speed. Except it does ride rougher than I expected....

 

Now keep in mind I don't want this car to go away. I have nothing against it, and my job of 18 years is in possible trouble here. it's a good car for what it does. Just don't compare it to a sport(y) car.

Now, compared to other sedans, yes...it handles just fine. Not as sharp as a Fusion, say, but just as good as the 500 I drove. (I found it dissapointing, actually....for all the hype it got, I'd rather have a GM/CV)

 

 

Now, maybe the PI wallows at low speeds just as much at high (In other words, no more so), but I couldn't tell you that...we're not allowed to drive them quickly around the plant. Strictly enforced speed limits and all....

 

 

 

By the way, I drive my 'stang year-round....with the X-Ice tires, the thing is fantastic in the snow!

[WC-MAN]

but just as good as the 500 I drove.

 

Okay, your talking "1970's technology" vs. a modern multi-million dollar package. And the best you could come up with is "Just as good". Trust me, the PI does not wallow, I can't think of a single modern car that actually wallows. A panther can take a corner at twice the legal speed easy. If it wallowed, that would not be possible.

 

By our own definition, the panther handles as well as the D3. Meaning that, by your definition, it wallows. And since its "Not as sharp as a Fusion, say", your are implying the Fusion also nearly wallows.

 

Wallowing aside, Ford has spent millions on a vehicle that is only "just as good as" their oldest platform. THAT is all the proof you need to just leave the panther alone with updates instead of trying to completely rework it.

[GhostTiger]

Okay, your talking "1970's technology" vs. a modern multi-million dollar package. And the best you could come up with is "Just as good". Trust me, the PI does not wallow, I can't think of a single modern car that actually wallows. A panther can take a corner at twice the legal speed easy. If it wallowed, that would not be possible.

 

By our own definition, the panther handles as well as the D3. Meaning that, by your definition, it wallows. And since its "Not as sharp as a Fusion, say", your are implying the Fusion also nearly wallows.

 

Wallowing aside, Ford has spent millions on a vehicle that is only "just as good as" their oldest platform. THAT is all the proof you need to just leave the panther alone with updates instead of trying to completely rework it.

 

Apparently you missed the part about how I have nothing against the Crown Vic. When I say wallow, I mean noticably tilt during cornering. Every car does, but some much more than others. And yes, I was not impressed at all with the 500's ride or handling. Not to say it was bad, but it was, as I said prior, no better than the CV. And I might remind you that I have driven all kinds of new CV's around the plant, so I'm not exactly talking out of my ass here. Personally, I think they just need minor updates...this whole buisness about a new car platform every year is driven by auto magazines that don't have to pay for said new platforms all the time. If it works, leave it alone, until everyone is so much better than you have to rethink it. Just don't leave the same bodystyle for...oh....forever.... (Yes, I'm getting sick of seeing the things...lol...you try looking at 600 a day for years and years! Change is good!)

 

But back to the only real point I was trying to make...the car does not handle like a 'stang, even at low speeds. Liking the CV or not, wasn't my point.

[SysEng]

...

But back to the only real point I was trying to make...the car does not handle like a 'stang, even at low speeds. Liking the CV or not, wasn't my point.

...

 

Agreed, I can make my MGM tilt and swivel in pretty wild ways. However, the presence of "wallowing" isn't exactly the definition of "handling" either.

 

Let me be a bit more precise... at legal speeds ( including 75MPH on the freeway ) my MGM will keep its wheels exactly where any other car including MOST models of the Mustang ( possibly including your own.GT ) puts 'em. Allowing for the fact the MGM is a bigger and wider car than any other.

 

Now you may consider the "wallow" to be uncomfortable, and many a welfare wagon baby do, but thats a matter of "ride quality" and preference... NOT handling.

 

And those who want to give your GT a run for its money have BOMBed their "panthers"... (B.O.M.B. = Better Of Modified Baby )

... and I gather they are much tighter than any production vehicle. Thats the nice thing about the "panther" platform. You can do much more with it, than the nimrods in Fords management can conceive of... ( but it can't go to Congress looking for a handout ).

[GhostTiger]

Thats the nice thing about the "panther" platform. You can do much more with it, than the nimrods in Fords management can conceive of... ( but it can't go to Congress looking for a handout ).

 

 

I'm aware of that....I remember some of the guys that went to Detroit to help out with the Marauder prototypes. They told us of a supercharged engine...that never made it into production. Ford has a habit of gimping what should be interesting cars before they ever hit the production line. The Marauder should have been much better than it was. Sean Hyland Motorsports had a modified version at the plant one day...now THAT is what Ford should have built. 430 or so hp, and a decent, aggressive body kit.

 

You can make any car handle really well, but physics is still physics....heavier cars are still at a disadvantage.

 

I think the current car has too much "clop", but then...I kinda expected a smooth-feel-no-bumps ride, like my '79 Grand Marquis had. (ok, it handled terrible, granted...) In a way though, it's good that the car provides some feedback to the driver. Supposedly the biggest single issue with the CV/Gm as it is, is that it won't pass rollover regulations that are upcoming in 2011 or so. I don't know how true that is (how the hell will any convertible pass that then??), but that's why Ford is looking to replace it. Or so I'm told...

 

Back to topic though......body roll aside, a CV/GM will do what most cars do. Very few cars handles so badly as to be unsafe.....like the Smart car, for example. Handling to me is the fact a Mustang GT can slalom at 65 mph....very few cars can do that.

There was an interesting 'comparison" C&D did a while back....they took 3 police cars, and three sporty cars......ran them through a simulated chase....in essence, ran a complicated course through city streets to see who was the quickest, and at what point the pursuing police until might lose sight of the car it was chasing. The CV really wasn't much worse than the Charger or Impala. (and the officer they talked to at the end said they prefered the CV anyway, for it's predictability) however, the slowest "getaway" car, a Miata, lost any one of the cruisers after 3 blocks. The Evo was even quicker, so the 911 they had, they didn't even bother running through the course. The reason I brough that up, is it's a stark reminder than even the CV PI does not handle nearly as well as any kind of sports car. That's why the cops have radios though.....

Edited October 3, 2008 by GhostTiger

[SysEng]

... Supposedly the biggest single issue with the CV/Gm as it is, is that it won't pass rollover regulations that are upcoming in 2011 or so. I don't know how true that is (how the hell will any convertible pass that then??), but that's why Ford is looking to replace it. Or so I'm told...

 

Holy , if a "panther" can't pass a new rollover regulation, I doubt any car on earth can! Its only the safest bit of rolling stock on the freaking planet!

 

Back to topic though......body roll aside, a CV/GM will do what most cars do. Very few cars handles so badly as to be unsafe.....like the Smart car, for example. Handling to me is the fact a Mustang GT can slalom at 65 mph....very few cars can do that.

There was an interesting 'comparison" C&D did a while back....t

 

Whoever did the driving is not "panther qualified" so to speak.

 

I saw a video of a timed circuit run of a pre 2002 CVPI against a high end "euro car". The "panther" pitched and rolled and burned the rubber and you name it in the most embarrassing way. It was pretty alarming to watch... and I drive one every day :shades: . The "panther" was a slug compared to a ballerina in that test ...

 

... except, that the "panther" did better time by a wide margin and stayed on the course :huh:

... the euro car flipped out...

 

Of course, the driver was a police driving instructor who happened to be a "panther" fan who owned and drove daily. There is an experience factor in pushing these things around. Certainly, I can't run 'em like that, and I've been driving them as a daily driver for over 20 years.

 

OTOH, Miata/ Evo/ 911 ??? Perhaps they were professional drivers, because the ones I see around here can't seem to get 'outta my F(n) way.

Edited October 3, 2008 by SysEng

[GhostTiger]

Whoever did the driving is not "panther qualified" so to speak.

 

OTOH, Miata/ Evo/ 911 ??? Perhaps they were professional drivers, because the ones I see around here can't seem to get 'outta my F(n) way.

 

Once again, you can't ignore physics. A 4200 lb car cannot corner like a 2500 lb car...or even a 3500 lb one. Stick the CV on a skid pad and it will slide off long before a Mustang. Now were I to be rear-ended, at , say...75 mph....I'd rather be in the Vic.... or towing...I've seen CV/Gm's hauling some pretty big trailers. Roomy, comfy, will carry 6 people...all great things about the CV/GM. However, you can't have it all...

 

And yes, if you drive aggressively, then the Miatas and EVOs and whatnot will get in your way. Try not to crush them though.

 

 

Oh, and speaking of flipping out.....that's what one of our management fellas told us at a meeting about the police trials, back when the Charger was new. Somebody rolled one at the trials. As he said... "I suppose that's good for us"

Edited October 3, 2008 by GhostTiger

[armadamaster]

Supposedly the biggest single issue with the CV/Gm as it is, is that it won't pass rollover regulations that are upcoming in 2011 or so. I don't know how true that is (how the hell will any convertible pass that then??), but that's why Ford is looking to replace it. Or so I'm told...

 

That's curious, because the Panther exceeds Ford's "Safest Car in America" the D3 sedans in rollover according to NHTSA testing. :stats:

[Milstar 04 Sport]

That's curious, because the Panther exceeds Ford's "Safest Car in America" the D3 sedans in rollover according to NHTSA testing. :stats:

 

I rolled a 2000 CV in 2004.

 

I spoke to eye witnesses, after the accident, and they told me I rolled end over end, rear of car, up in the air, flipped over, landed on wheels, continued to go forward in the hills, and then the car rolled over side ways, landed on it wheels, and still continued in a forward direction, and finally stopped.

 

All I remember is losing control of the car, after a tire blew in a curve.

 

I walked down from the mountain, and sat on the curb.

 

When the Highway Patrol showed up at the hospital, the officer told me the only reason I was alive, was because I was driving a CV. When he got the call, due to the area of the accident, he thought that I would be dead.

 

After the accident, I noticed that 3 people in a six month period, were involved in accidents in that area, and three people died.

 

I was in the emergency room for three hours, and had every test, to include X-Rays, an MRI, and they could find no problems. I was released from the hospital, and walked out.

 

When I when to the wrecking yard, where the car was in storage, I was amazed at how well it held up.

 

It took me three months to find a replacement car, and yes it was another panther.

 

Another life saved by the Panther.

[SysEng]

Once again, you can't ignore physics. A 4200 lb car cannot corner like a 2500 lb car...or even a 3500 lb one. Stick the CV on a skid pad and it will slide off long before a Mustang.

 

You just might be surprised about that. I believe the skidpad number for a Mustang was .84 and the skidpad number for a stock MGM is .81 ... so slide of before a Mustang... yes! "long before"? Not likely.

 

 

 

And yes, if you drive aggressively, then the Miatas and EVOs and whatnot will get in your way. Try not to crush them though.

 

LOL, I'll see what I can do OTOH, If I drive aggressively... :boring:

 

Oh, and speaking of flipping out.....that's what one of our management fellas told us at a meeting about the police trials, back when the Charger was new. Somebody rolled one at the trials. As he said... "I suppose that's good for us"

 

I hear you guys can't buy a "panther" in Canada these days. You ( and your management ) want to worry about something, that kind of marketing might be a place to start. And tell'em ( your there after all ) to update the platform as per the "panther mafia" wish list. Y'all will have a lot less to worry about then... ... honest...

[GhostTiger]

You just might be surprised about that. I believe the skidpad number for a Mustang was .84 and the skidpad number for a stock MGM is .81 ... so slide of before a Mustang... yes! "long before"? Not likely.

 

I hear you guys can't buy a "panther" in Canada these days. You ( and your management ) want to worry about something, that kind of marketing might be a place to start. And tell'em ( your there after all ) to update the platform as per the "panther mafia" wish list. Y'all will have a lot less to worry about then... ... honest...

 

Picking an absoulute low vs an absolute high? Try closer to mid 70's for the Gm and high 80's for the 'stang.....and that IS a big difference. Not all skidpads are equal....size matters, as does pavement type.

 

As for the Panther sales here....supposedly we were not selling enough...something like 600 the last year they offered the GM. We still buy police and fleet units though(CV/TC)...just no GM's. And you try telling Ford anything...they don't listen to customers, much less those of us who build them.

 

 

 

As per the rollover....right now, nobody actually tests a car for rollover DAMAGE....just resistance. Apparently the new regulations are for damage incurred during a rollover. And i'm curious.....far as I have read, the only car Ford makes with a 5 star rollover resistance rating is the Mustang......isn't the D3 the same 4 stars as the Panther?

 

I'll have to look into that, unless someone has the links handy.

 

I really don't see why a Panther would survive a rollover better than any other car...the frame is no longer helping you there, and 4200 lbs is a lot for a roof to absorb. I saw one of our cars that a twit at the plant (while drunk) raced around the outside to the front gate in, with no brakes. he wound up bailing out when he tried to avoid a group of workers.....he was somewhat ok, from what I was told (other than getting fired the next week), however..... I saw the car afterwards. it hit a parked semi-trailer. And the passenger side roof was crushed from what had to be a relatively slow impact. Slow enough for him to bail out and walk away, at any rate. The frame was even twisted from the crash (only 3 tires would sit on the ground) Now, I think he'd have been fine had he stayed in, and were wearing a seltbelt, but a passenger....not so much.

(Ford kept the car as a study vehicle...lol) The law used to state a car had to withstand 2.5 times it's own weight on the roof. I have no idea what they want for new regulations. Or why the panther can't pass them.

[suv_guy_19]

That's curious, because the Panther exceeds Ford's "Safest Car in America" the D3 sedans in rollover according to NHTSA testing. :stats:

 

 

That doesn't test what will happen to the car in a rollover, it tests the car's aversion to a rollover.

[twintornados]

What would it take to add "Roll Stability Control" (RSC) to Panther? It's on full size SUV's.....would it work with a live axle?

[suv_guy_19]

What would it take to add "Roll Stability Control" (RSC) to Panther? It's on full size SUV's.....would it work with a live axle?

 

 

Its on the E-Series, so it must.

[twintornados]

Its on the E-Series, so it must.

well then...there ya go...how much does RSC cost to add to an existing platform?

[WC-MAN]

That doesn't test what will happen to the car in a rollover, it tests the car's aversion to a rollover.

 

So they are going to test what happens to a car in a rollover? It seems to me all they are requiring is ESC, which, as has been said, is no problem. The Panthers are by default safer than any truck or SUV, because they are far less likely to have a rollover. And few cars today anywhere near their size have a lower center of gravity. The D3 is hurt by the upright seating that is supposed to make it attractive.

[matthewq4b]

From what I understand is is basically impossible to get a panther to roll over on a flat surface. Once you leave the road or blow a tire no amount of ESC is going to help you then.

 

The last roll over test I seen for the CV GM TC just left the testers frustrated try as they could they not get the cars roll over no matter how hard they tried.

 

 

The panthers have a very very low center of gravity. The advatages of BOF in a car.

 

Matthew