megaford1 Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 I do work in the Van Dyke plant. No where else! Sorry Hey Steve I know you have said no ILO's have been mentioned as of yet. But you have to say things are looking a bit screwed up for the trades at our plant. Numbers are scary for tm's , mr and el now and dont they or did they not have postings for mw, el and mr? How can the company keep bringing in people while we have layoffs. I'm starting to feel how the production people do. We are getting screwed! That's there plan, and nobody not even the union can save us now. Instead of wanting the high senority employee's out, now they are looking to kill the future, If you look at how thier running the business as a whole there will be no north american production within 10 yrs. There will always be Ford, GM, not so much Chrysler, but when they start producing "WORLD CARS" that means they may start too import there own cars to the States at a cheaper price...But this only a educated guess, just watch how they all position themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve morris Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 I do work in the Van Dyke plant. No where else! Sorry Hey Steve I know you have said no ILO's have been mentioned as of yet. But you have to say things are looking a bit screwed up for the trades at our plant. Numbers are scary for tm's , mr and el now and dont they or did they not have postings for mw, el and mr? How can the company keep bringing in people while we have layoffs. I'm starting to feel how the production people do. We are getting screwed! There is a MW, MR, and power house guy coming. These guys are coming over due to a posting that was put up for buy out replacements. National Language calls for a one for one replacement on buyouts. you are right though, things are looking bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve morris Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 I have placed the tlo matrix on the counter in the committeeroom. The numbers did increase in each trade due to a supplier problem that caused the 6FM to cut production to 1 shift. Please , leave the matrix on the counter for others to look at if you go to the room to see it. The clerk will be posting the tlo matrix through out the plant first thing Thursday morning. The number of trades being tlo'd is as follows: Elect- 21 MW- 8 TM - 26 MR- 17 PF - 7 Hyd- 10 Machinist (tmo)- 4 cutter grind - 1 Die Maker- 2 -------------------------- Total 96 If you see any issues with the matrix, please let me know and i will try to get it corrected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megaford1 Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 I have placed the tlo matrix on the counter in the committeeroom. The numbers did increase in each trade due to a supplier problem that caused the 6FM to cut production to 1 shift. Please , leave the matrix on the counter for others to look at if you go to the room to see it. The clerk will be posting the tlo matrix through out the plant first thing Thursday morning. The number of trades being tlo'd is as follows: Elect- 21 MW- 8 TM - 26 MR- 17 PF - 7 Hyd- 10 Machinist (tmo)- 4 cutter grind - 1 Die Maker- 2 -------------------------- Total 96 If you see any issues with the matrix, please let me know and i will try to get it corrected. I guess this will be the begining of a long hard year coming our way, I hope eveyone will be O.K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VDTRANSMAN Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 I have placed the tlo matrix on the counter in the committeeroom. The numbers did increase in each trade due to a supplier problem that caused the 6FM to cut production to 1 shift. Please , leave the matrix on the counter for others to look at if you go to the room to see it. The clerk will be posting the tlo matrix through out the plant first thing Thursday morning. The number of trades being tlo'd is as follows: Elect- 21 MW- 8 TM - 26 MR- 17 PF - 7 Hyd- 10 Machinist (tmo)- 4 cutter grind - 1 Die Maker- 2 -------------------------- Total 96 If you see any issues with the matrix, please let me know and i will try to get it corrected. It just better be right! If its not I'll wait till Friday evening before I bring it to anyone's attention. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve morris Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 I'm sure there are a lot of questions regarding the Feb 16th layoff. I will try to explain what happened the best i can. Late in the day Wed. the company got notification of a supply problem for 6FM. Due to the fact we were not going to have enough parts to run full, the company made the decision to run only 1 shift. The company decided to layoff the entire 3rd shift in 6FM (both production and trades) regardless of seniority due to the fact they felt there wasn't enough time to survey everyone and to do the manpower moves needed to honor seniority. FROM WHAT I HAVE BEEN TOLD, Mod tried to force the company to honor seniority but the company stated they didn't have time and used Pg84 of Volume 1 of the National Agreement to justify laying off the 3rd shift. For those of you who haven't picked up your 2007 National Agreement yet, Volume 1 pg. 84 section 21 states: Section 21 B) In the event of a temporary layoff, the company shall have the right to lay off employees as their work is completed, irrespective of their group seniority; provided, however, that no other employee will be used on the jobs of employees who are temporary laid off. Section 21 A) A temporary layoff for any other reason is defined as a layoff of not more than twelve (12) working days. The Provisions covering temporary layoffs shall apply to all employee, both production and non-production employees, and the so-called "skilled Plantwide" classifications in the Rouge area. The so-called "skilled plant wide" classifications, are not subject to the model change layoff provision of this agreement. A Model change layoff is defined as a lay off of not more than thirty (30 ) working days. If I'm not mistaken, The call was made downtown and they confirmed that the company can do this. From my understanding, the company did this because of timing. They plan to honor seniority whenever possible but they felt they did not have enough time in this case. I hope this explains what went down. I'm not happy with it but from what i have been told, it is contractually correct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theycandothat Posted February 13, 2009 Author Share Posted February 13, 2009 I'm sure there are a lot of questions regarding the Feb 16th layoff. I will try to explain what happened the best i can. Late in the day Wed. the company got notification of a supply problem for 6FM. Due to the fact we were not going to have enough parts to run full, the company made the decision to run only 1 shift. The company decided to layoff the entire 3rd shift in 6FM (both production and trades) regardless of seniority due to the fact they felt there wasn't enough time to survey everyone and to do the manpower moves needed to honor seniority. FROM WHAT I HAVE BEEN TOLD, Mod tried to force the company to honor seniority but the company stated they didn't have time and used Pg84 of Volume 1 of the National Agreement to justify laying off the 3rd shift.For those of you who haven't picked up your 2007 National Agreement yet, Volume 1 pg. 84 section 21 states: Section 21 B) In the event of a temporary layoff, the company shall have the right to lay off employees as their work is completed, irrespective of their group seniority; provided, however, that no other employee will be used on the jobs of employees who are temporary laid off. Section 21 A) A temporary layoff for any other reason is defined as a layoff of not more than twelve (12) working days. The Provisions covering temporary layoffs shall apply to all employee, both production and non-production employees, and the so-called "skilled Plantwide" classifications in the Rouge area. The so-called "skilled plant wide" classifications, are not subject to the model change layoff provision of this agreement. A Model change layoff is defined as a lay off of not more than thirty (30 ) working days. If I'm not mistaken, The call was made downtown and they confirmed that the company can do this. From my understanding, the company did this because of timing. They plan to honor seniority whenever possible but they felt they did not have enough time in this case. I hope this explains what went down. I'm not happy with it but from what i have been told, it is contractually correct. It's funny the company said it did'nt have the time. Dept 777 had plenty of time to do it, so why did'nt they lay-off just afternoon shift in material handling . Seems to me Management did'nt want to take the time in 6f Mid to make things right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve morris Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 I know that in order to do the Skilled Trades lay off, if they were to honor seniority and shift preference, they would of had to have the survey completed by Thursday morning. Once the survey is done, the company, LR, the clerk, and the union sit down and jockey people where they belong based on seniority and shift preference. The matrix would have to be done by Thursday afternoon and posted Friday morning by 6:30-7:00 A.M. for the midnight shift people. I honestly do not think the clerk could have completed the survey by early afternoon considering he would have to contact Midnight shift guys that had already left the building. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flatrockbacktovandyke Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 I know that in order to do the Skilled Trades lay off, if they were to honor seniority and shift preference, they would of had to have the survey completed by Thursday morning. Once the survey is done, the company, LR, the clerk, and the union sit down and jockey people where they belong based on seniority and shift preference. The matrix would have to be done by Thursday afternoon and posted Friday morning by 6:30-7:00 A.M. for the midnight shift people. I honestly do not think the clerk could have completed the survey by early afternoon considering he would have to contact Midnight shift guys that had already left the building. Steve, Detnews.com had already posted a story about K.C being down next couple of weeks on Tuesday. Weds when we reported for work on afternoons They had already made the call on the lay off. How can The company say that Three days is not enough time to honor Seniority. When just three months ago they shut us down and moved us to 325 to do main control swaps in two days and laid off those that wanted it. This is starting to get bad. It seems like the rules that are set forth are never followed. Unless is affects someone of importance. No one can say that they haven't seen this story before. The last time Mod was in a meeting like the one he had on monday with 6fm people were being sent to other plants. When Alex wanted to introduce Midnights all of us on the floor seen what the writing on the wall was going to be. It happened in 2002 when midnights was on in ax4n. When Sterling came. The low in the plant see history repeating. yes we have great products. but no one is buying cars. no has been buying cars. What cable news show do you guys in the room watch? I hope to god what you say is true that mod and ken fought it all the way But the way it looks on the plant floor is like a WWE Screw job in affect. Thanks for being so honest on here though. It has earned you respect among those of us working stiffs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordbonzai Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 I'm sure there are a lot of questions regarding the Feb 16th layoff. I will try to explain what happened the best i can. Late in the day Wed. the company got notification of a supply problem for 6FM. Due to the fact we were not going to have enough parts to run full, the company made the decision to run only 1 shift. The company decided to layoff the entire 3rd shift in 6FM (both production and trades) regardless of seniority due to the fact they felt there wasn't enough time to survey everyone and to do the manpower moves needed to honor seniority. FROM WHAT I HAVE BEEN TOLD, Mod tried to force the company to honor seniority but the company stated they didn't have time and used Pg84 of Volume 1 of the National Agreement to justify laying off the 3rd shift.For those of you who haven't picked up your 2007 National Agreement yet, Volume 1 pg. 84 section 21 states: Section 21 B) In the event of a temporary layoff, the company shall have the right to lay off employees as their work is completed, irrespective of their group seniority; provided, however, that no other employee will be used on the jobs of employees who are temporary laid off. Section 21 A) A temporary layoff for any other reason is defined as a layoff of not more than twelve (12) working days. The Provisions covering temporary layoffs shall apply to all employee, both production and non-production employees, and the so-called "skilled Plantwide" classifications in the Rouge area. The so-called "skilled plant wide" classifications, are not subject to the model change layoff provision of this agreement. A Model change layoff is defined as a lay off of not more than thirty (30 ) working days. If I'm not mistaken, The call was made downtown and they confirmed that the company can do this. From my understanding, the company did this because of timing. They plan to honor seniority whenever possible but they felt they did not have enough time in this case. I hope this explains what went down. I'm not happy with it but from what i have been told, it is contractually correct. Steve, we appreciate that you come on here and give the best answers you can. But I think Mod is full of crap. We have seen Fn, 6F and even AX4N have this last minute stuff before and the company has always surveyed and honored seniority. "That no other employee will be used on the jobs of employees who are temporary laid off". I would think this part alone is being violated. We can understand if it was shutting down the entire area and the union was wanting to honor seniority plant wide, but they are using people on these jobs just on another shift. There is nothing in the language that Mod gave you guys that says anything about shifts. We would like to know who they spoke with downtown, can you find out? Because it is always the same answer from Mod, international says they can, we fought but international over ruled. think he is using this as a scape goat from time to time. i agree with you it might be extremely hard with skilled trades but again i do believe over the years it has happened. I'm sure there would even be a couple of mistakes, but people would understand. I also agree with flatrockbacktovandyke they are seeing the past all over again. Good luck to all! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flatrockbacktovandyke Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Steve, we appreciate that you come on here and give the best answers you can. But I think Mod is full of crap. We have seen Fn, 6F and even AX4N have this last minute stuff before and the company has always surveyed and honored seniority. "That no other employee will be used on the jobs of employees who are temporary laid off". I would think this part alone is being violated. We can understand if it was shutting down the entire area and the union was wanting to honor seniority plant wide, but they are using people on these jobs just on another shift. There is nothing in the language that Mod gave you guys that says anything about shifts. We would like to know who they spoke with downtown, can you find out? Because it is always the same answer from Mod, international says they can, we fought but international over ruled. think he is using this as a scape goat from time to time. i agree with you it might be extremely hard with skilled trades but again i do believe over the years it has happened. I'm sure there would even be a couple of mistakes, but people would understand. I also agree with flatrockbacktovandyke they are seeing the past all over again. Good luck to all! It's just strangle that the final line was the one area that did not survey and honor seniority. Clean room, material handling they all had time to do a survey. I'm not sure if they followed it or not. It just seems all to often that the line in the sand gets drawn, Company crosses it, the union just draws another. They are walking all over us. I do know that Bonzai is right about one thing. There are people(temps) working day shift next week while perm. workers are laid off. I think people on the floor just want an honest answer from now on. Give it to people straight we can take it. It's all the B.S that gets said that drives tempers up. When you call a union guy out for an answer the response is always the same.. " mmm not sure I will get back to you." or they make stuff up. Like tell you whatever you need to hear at the time and then just let the company do what ever it wants. Everyone makes mistakes. also as people are honest bout not knowing something or not sure how it all works others will understand. The passing of the buck needs to stop. What happen to honor? Take your licks and people will respect you for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve morris Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Steve, we appreciate that you come on here and give the best answers you can. But I think Mod is full of crap. We have seen Fn, 6F and even AX4N have this last minute stuff before and the company has always surveyed and honored seniority. "That no other employee will be used on the jobs of employees who are temporary laid off". I would think this part alone is being violated. We can understand if it was shutting down the entire area and the union was wanting to honor seniority plant wide, but they are using people on these jobs just on another shift. There is nothing in the language that Mod gave you guys that says anything about shifts. We would like to know who they spoke with downtown, can you find out? Because it is always the same answer from Mod, international says they can, we fought but international over ruled. think he is using this as a scape goat from time to time. i agree with you it might be extremely hard with skilled trades but again i do believe over the years it has happened. I'm sure there would even be a couple of mistakes, but people would understand. I also agree with flatrockbacktovandyke they are seeing the past all over again. Good luck to all! I am not going to argue with you're interpretation of the language "no other employee will be used on the jobs of employees who are temporarily laid off." I would make the same argument. But to be honest with you, that language can be argued both ways. The intent of the language must be made clear to know when and under what circumstances this language applies. I do not know who Jim spoke to but i would imagine it was our Servicing Rep.. Unfortunately, i don't know the guys name. We just got a new Servicing Rep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve morris Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 It's just strangle that the final line was the one area that did not survey and honor seniority. Clean room, material handling they all had time to do a survey. I'm not sure if they followed it or not. It just seems all to often that the line in the sand gets drawn, Company crosses it, the union just draws another. They are walking all over us. I do know that Bonzai is right about one thing. There are people(temps) working day shift next week while perm. workers are laid off. I think people on the floor just want an honest answer from now on. Give it to people straight we can take it. It's all the B.S that gets said that drives tempers up. When you call a union guy out for an answer the response is always the same.. " mmm not sure I will get back to you." or they make stuff up. Like tell you whatever you need to hear at the time and then just let the company do what ever it wants. Everyone makes mistakes. also as people are honest bout not knowing something or not sure how it all works others will understand. The passing of the buck needs to stop. What happen to honor? Take your licks and people will respect you for it. I'm not involved in the everyday dealing concerning production so i cannot comment on your statement. I will say that from what i know of the committemen i work with, if you call them out, they will come out and answer your questions. I have to disagree with your comment that the company is walking all over the union though, but we are all entitled to our own opinions. I do agree that people on the floor want to hear the truth regardless if they like the answer or not. It sounds to me like you need to have a serious talk with whoever you're accusing of these things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unionguy963 Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 I am not going to argue with you're interpretation of the language "no other employee will be used on the jobs of employees who are temporarily laid off." I would make the same argument. But to be honest with you, that language can be argued both ways. The intent of the language must be made clear to know when and under what circumstances this language applies. I do not know who Jim spoke to but i would imagine it was our Servicing Rep.. Unfortunately, i don't know the guys name. We just got a new Servicing Rep. Steve, you seem like a good guy....That being said.... Read art.10 sec.8 .... It gives the bargaining committee the right to "change or waive certian provisions of the agreement" Keep in mind here that I'm just trying to shed light from the outside looking in... I've read these posts and see phrases like, it's my understanding, or, I've been told, and it seems like you're being kept in the loop as much as your plant committee and chairman want you to be in the loop. I'm sure because they know you post what you know or believe to be the whole truth here... I'm well aware and familiar with the language of art.8 sec.21.... TLO's go by department, by classification, by seniority....period.... There's no intent here....the language is quite clear... What happened at VD is bargaining committee business, not IUAW.... From the outside looking in it looks like the bargianing committee agreed to deviate from master agreement language..... I'd let who ever wanted to file a grievance over this issue do so....the truth will come out.... Either you'll have your servicing rep. at your next meeting taking ownership of this decision or you'll find out that the bargaining committee made the agreement.... Just my opinion....I hope things settle down over there.... SOLIDARITY Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wanderinglost Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 I am not going to argue with you're interpretation of the language "no other employee will be used on the jobs of employees who are temporarily laid off." I would make the same argument. But to be honest with you, that language can be argued both ways. The intent of the language must be made clear to know when and under what circumstances this language applies. I do not know who Jim spoke to but i would imagine it was our Servicing Rep.. Unfortunately, i don't know the guys name. We just got a new Servicing Rep. His name is Gary Whitcher (sp?), former VP of local 400. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordbonzai Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 Steve, you seem like a good guy....That being said.... Read art.10 sec.8 .... It gives the bargaining committee the right to "change or waive certian provisions of the agreement" Keep in mind here that I'm just trying to shed light from the outside looking in... I've read these posts and see phrases like, it's my understanding, or, I've been told, and it seems like you're being kept in the loop as much as your plant committee and chairman want you to be in the loop. I'm sure because they know you post what you know or believe to be the whole truth here... I'm well aware and familiar with the language of art.8 sec.21.... TLO's go by department, by classification, by seniority....period.... There's no intent here....the language is quite clear... What happened at VD is bargaining committee business, not IUAW.... From the outside looking in it looks like the bargianing committee agreed to deviate from master agreement language..... I'd let who ever wanted to file a grievance over this issue do so....the truth will come out.... Either you'll have your servicing rep. at your next meeting taking ownership of this decision or you'll find out that the bargaining committee made the agreement.... Just my opinion....I hope things settle down over there.... SOLIDARITY I could not agree with you more! This is Mods way to just get it done and not have to deal with realty. He does not want to deal with seniority because it could upset the low seniority. I will tell you most of us want the truth. We have had the company do things the last minute many times in the past so whats the difference? There is none! Others have asked what has happened to being honest, the only one in that union office is Steve. The only problem is he is being bull shitted by a toothless drunk. I SAY WE ALL FILE GRIEVANCES. CONTRACT ALSO SAYS TEMPS GET REDUCED FIRST! READ THE NATIONAL AND LOCAL AGREEMENTS JIM! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrX Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 His name is Gary Whitcher (sp?), former VP of local 400. It's staring to make sense now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordbonzai Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 It's staring to make sense now. Its called lets make a BS decision and go on vacation so I don't have to deal with it.....haven't seen jimbo in the plant since Tuesday and was told he went on vacation. 17 months left untill election can't wait to throw this bum out of office....and anyone would be better we can't do any worse he has embaressed this union from the International leval down to the local leval!!!!! Its amazing how Jimbo and Nick MF everyone from Bob King down to for all our problems and they NEVER take any responsability for anything that happens in the plant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEagle Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 Its called lets make a BS decision and go on vacation so I don't have to deal with it.....haven't seen jimbo in the plant since Tuesday and was told he went on vacation. 17 months left untill election can't wait to throw this bum out of office....and anyone would be better we can't do any worse he has embaressed this union from the International leval down to the local leval!!!!! Its amazing how Jimbo and Nick MF everyone from Bob King down to for all our problems and they NEVER take any responsability for anything that happens in the plant. Isn't Bob King the guy who saved his job after Jim was caught on tape? It does not suprise me that Unionguy63 or (Dave Dooley) as we all know him is defending a guy like MOD. Because he is the same kind of guy. Take care of his issue first and the membership can wait. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEagle Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 His name is Gary Whitcher (sp?), former VP of local 400. Nope Darryl Nolan. We met him last week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theycandothat Posted February 14, 2009 Author Share Posted February 14, 2009 I could not agree with you more! This is Mods way to just get it done and not have to deal with realty. He does not want to deal with seniority because it could upset the low seniority. I will tell you most of us want the truth. We have had the company do things the last minute many times in the past so whats the difference? There is none! Others have asked what has happened to being honest, the only one in that union office is Steve. The only problem is he is being bull shitted by a toothless drunk. I SAY WE ALL FILE GRIEVANCES. CONTRACT ALSO SAYS TEMPS GET REDUCED FIRST! READ THE NATIONAL AND LOCAL AGREEMENTS JIM! I have been saying that very same thing for a long time. Just give us the truth from the get go. Also, I heard 39 more people coming. Any truth to that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve morris Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 Okay, let me try to clear things up a bit... The reason i started posting on BON is because i wanted to get the layoff information out to the people I represent as quickly as possible. Considering i am involved in the TLO manpower matrix and that i represent the Skilled Trades, I felt it was my responsibility. On a few occasions I have commented on issues regarding production. In hind site, I probably should not have done that considering I am not involved in those day to day issues. It's all to easy to walk into that room while a discussion is being held and hear things without knowing the whole story. For me to comment on the production issues without being totally up to speed is not fair to you guys or the guys in that room. I apologize if by commenting on production issues, I made it sound as if i knew everything that was going on, because i don't. That is why when i posted, i said things such as "from what i was told" or "as far as i know". I see now that by doing that, it could be viewed as if i was being kept in the dark or that i felt as if what i was being told was bullshit. I never meant for it to sound that way. I have never had someone in that room not answer questions that I have asked. Considering that i am not involved in the day to day issues regarding production, I think it's best that i stop trying to answer any questions regarding production. The last thing i want to do is mislead you or cuase problems for others in the room by only giving half of the information.. If you have a question regarding production issues, please direct them to your committeeman. They are more capable of answering them than i am. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wanderinglost Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 Nope Darryl Nolan. We met him last week. You may be correct, I talked to Gary on the phone Wednesday and the switchboard told me he was our servicing rep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve morris Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 I have been saying that very same thing for a long time. Just give us the truth from the get go. Also, I heard 39 more people coming. Any truth to that. I have not heard anything from anyone about 39 more people coming to Van Dyke. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve morris Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 You may be correct, I talked to Gary on the phone Wednesday and the switchboard told me he was our servicing rep. Gary Whitcher is our rep. at Region. Daryll Nolan is our servicing Rep. from IUAW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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