Canadian Pensions

[ute]

so with all the carp going on with the Canadian GM pensions being underfunded

 

i wonder if anyone knows if our pension is also underfunded

 

 

 

 

 

 

C&P

 

Union blasts Ontario for GM pension underfunding

Thu Apr 9, 2009 7:19pm BST

 

By John McCrank

 

TORONTO, April 9 (Reuters) - The Canadian Auto Workers union said on Thursday the government of Ontario was ducking its obligation to guarantee the pensions of retired General Motors Corp (GM.N) workers in .

 

The union argues Ontario, the heartland of 's auto industry, is responsible to fund a shortfall of nearly C$2 billion ($1.6 billion) in GM 's pension plan because of a loophole that allowed the company to underfund the plan. The province says it lacks the resources to make up the difference.

 

"In the case of GM, a big part of the problem is the government's own regulations," said Ken Lewenza, president of the CAW.

 

"Since 1992, they have excluded GM from solvency funding. That means they can fund their pensions to lower standards than all other companies. No wonder the deficit is so big today."

 

In 1992, Ontario allowed corporations that have over C$500 million in assets in their pension funds, or companies that were considered "too big to fail," to pay off their obligations over a 15-year time span.

 

Other companies operating in the province with pension plans have five years to cover shortfalls.

 

GM retirees now face the possibility that their pensions could vanish if the company goes bankrupt, which GM's new CEO has said is a real possibility.

 

Len Harrison, the president of the CAW's Retirees' Council of , said the situation that retirees find themselves is completely unjust. He said now-retired workers had always bargained in good faith and always lived up to what was asked of them. Now the company is walking away from its agreements, he said.

[gocash]

so with all the carp going on with the Canadian GM pensions being underfunded

 

i wonder if anyone knows if our pension is also underfunded

 

What we have been told at our union awareness classes by those instructing the class,Ford Canada is around 80 % funded....Who knows where that money was invested though,so I don't know what % it sits at today...

 

 

 

 

C&P

 

Union blasts Ontario for GM pension underfunding

Thu Apr 9, 2009 7:19pm BST

 

By John McCrank

 

TORONTO, April 9 (Reuters) - The Canadian Auto Workers union said on Thursday the government of Ontario was ducking its obligation to guarantee the pensions of retired General Motors Corp (GM.N) workers in .

 

The union argues Ontario, the heartland of 's auto industry, is responsible to fund a shortfall of nearly C$2 billion ($1.6 billion) in GM 's pension plan because of a loophole that allowed the company to underfund the plan. The province says it lacks the resources to make up the difference.

 

"In the case of GM, a big part of the problem is the government's own regulations," said Ken Lewenza, president of the CAW.

 

"Since 1992, they have excluded GM from solvency funding. That means they can fund their pensions to lower standards than all other companies. No wonder the deficit is so big today."

 

In 1992, Ontario allowed corporations that have over C$500 million in assets in their pension funds, or companies that were considered "too big to fail," to pay off their obligations over a 15-year time span.

 

Other companies operating in the province with pension plans have five years to cover shortfalls.

 

GM retirees now face the possibility that their pensions could vanish if the company goes bankrupt, which GM's new CEO has said is a real possibility.

 

Len Harrison, the president of the CAW's Retirees' Council of , said the situation that retirees find themselves is completely unjust. He said now-retired workers had always bargained in good faith and always lived up to what was asked of them. Now the company is walking away from its agreements, he said.

[sparky1520]

Here is a thought, why don't they take the money they were going to loan GM if they liked their revised business plan, and fund the pensions with that if GM goes bankrupt?

[pissbreakstap]

GM retirees now face the possibility that their pensions could vanish if the company goes bankrupt, which GM's new CEO has said is a real possibility.

Thats scary hey .

[NoMoVisteon]

GM retirees now face the possibility that their pensions could vanish if the company goes bankrupt, which GM's new CEO has said is a real possibility.

Thats scary hey .

Yes, the new CEO is correct. IF, and I hope that GM or Chrysler, for that matter, don't have to go the route of bankruptcy, but if the unthinkable happens, yes, it can vanish. Once it reaches the courts, even under a reorganization or Chapter 11, they CAN eliminate pensions if they choose. I'm not sure how Canadian laws are on your end, perhaps they have similarities, I don't know. But with the current people that are now in the legal system running the courts, they tend to favor business and NOT those who have worked for the employers. They also don't give a shit about any of the stockholders either. Same goes for other vendors and/or suppliers, if they have much smaller issues. This is on the US end of the shit pile. Now, if GM winds up in liquidation, that's called Chapter 7 here in the US, you might as well kiss your ass and everyone else's GOODBYE. It doesn't get any scarier than that, I would say. I wish my fellow brothers and sisters in Canada, both active and retired the best, I really do. Simply put, I guess the rest of the so-called society that we live in both countries doesn't really care at all, if it all disappears for good, including us. That is what I've observed, AND heard here in the US. You've probably heard it on your end as well, I think, but I could be wrong. I'm just saying, that's all. Stay strong!

[goldfinger4]

so with all the carp going on with the Canadian GM pensions being underfunded

 

i wonder if anyone knows if our pension is also underfunded

 

Went to a presentation by Sym Gill, CAW pension specialist.

At the last reporting date, which was before the market meltdown.

 

The canadian pensions were funded, on a wind-up basis:

Ford 73.5%

GM 57%

Chrysler 91%

 

but with market losses Ford estimate was mid 50s

 

This link is all the facts about how a pension wind-up works....at least before Mcguinty passes his new budget with rule changes...

http://www.caw.ca/en/5213.htm

[ute]

Thanks for that

 

not great but better than GM ..and at least Ford is not going bankrupt ..but they will push for pattern bargain

 

 

2 things that p*ss me off are the fact the Ontario Guarantee is underfunded as well

 

the other is why is the Teachers pension so strong ..they own so much valuable stuff ..its in a trust as well ..i dont get it

 

 

 

i agree Sparky use that money they were going to give them and top up the fund and make it profitable like the teachers

[banker55]

Thanks for that

 

not great but better than GM ..and at least Ford is not going bankrupt ..but they will push for pattern bargain

 

 

2 things that p*ss me off are the fact the Ontario Guarantee is underfunded as well

 

the other is why is the Teachers pension so strong ..they own so much valuable stuff ..its in a trust as well ..i dont get it

 

 

 

i agree Sparky use that money they were going to give them and top up the fund and make it profitable like the teachers

Ontario teachers have 10% of the first $46000 deducted followed by 12% on income over that amount.This contribution is matched dollar for dollar by the Ontario government....their plan is investing lots of money weekly(240000 members) ....they

just keep buying

[ute]

ahhhh very interesting

 

so not like ours ...i thought there's was the same fully funded by the employer ( the Ontario gov )

[Edsel]

ahhhh very interesting

 

so not like ours ...i thought there's was the same fully funded by the employer ( the Ontario gov )

 

This is a lesson learned. We never, in a million years thought things would be allowed to get this bad. We may have to take pension matters into our own hands. Big business has screwed the worker and with the help of the government no less. All of those bastards should have their pensions stripped.

 

Ed.

[ute]

so here we go

 

 

GM readies for 'fast' bankruptcy

Micheline Maynard and Michael De La Merced, Detroit

April 14, 2009

 

THE US Department of the Treasury is directing General Motors to lay the groundwork for a bankruptcy filing by June 1, despite GM's contention it could still reorganise outside court.

 

Members of President Barack Obama's vehicle industry taskforce spent last week in talks with GM officials and its advisers. The talks are expected to continue this week.

 

The goal is to prepare for a fast, surgical bankruptcy, sources said at the weekend.

 

GM, which has been given $US13.4 billion ($A18.5 billion) in federal aid, insists a quick restructuring is necessary so its image and sales are not damaged permanently.

 

The groundwork is aimed at ensuring a GM bankruptcy filing is ready should it be unable to reach a deal with bondholders to exchange about $US28 billion in debt into equity in GM and with the United Automobile Workers union.

 

Mr Obama was concerned about risks to GM's pension plan and wanted to avoid harming workers, the sources said.

 

Spokesmen for GM and the Treasury did not comment.

 

One plan being considered would create a new company that would buy GM's good assets almost immediately after it files for bankruptcy.

 

Less desirable assets, including unwanted brands, factories and health-care obligations, would be left in the old company, and could be liquidated over several years.

 

Treasury officials are examining whether the "good GM" enters and exits bankruptcy protection in as little as two weeks, using $US5-7 billion of federal money. The rest of GM might need as much as $US70 billion in government money, and possibly more to resolve the health-care obligations and liquidation of the factories, legal experts and federal officials said.

 

Since replacing Rick Wagoner two weeks ago, GM chief executive Fritz Henderson has sent clear signals that bankruptcy is probable unless agreements are reached with labour and the bondholders by June 1.

 

Mr Henderson has asked staff to work with legal and government advisers, but he does not believe bankruptcy is inevitable.

 

John Paul MacDuffie, an associate professor at the Wharton School at the University of Pennsylvania, said he saw little chance of an out-of-court restructuring, given that the Obama Administration had rejected GM's proposed revitalisation plan last month. It was submitted without the concessions needed from bondholders and the union.

 

"The simplest way to frame it is that they took the loans, there were conditions on the loans, they didn't prove their case for financial viability, and they didn't meet the deadline, either," Associate Professor MacDuffie said.

 

Treasury has hired Boston Consulting Group to help with the plan. Participation from banks also may be needed.

 

GM has started an advertising campaign stressing that car buyers should have confidence in it, and offering to make nine monthly payments of up to $US500 each for owners who lose their jobs.

 

 

 

now what happens in Canada ?

 

 

 

And will there be "pattern " at Ford

 

 

 

If not Ford will be at a disadvantage to GM

[ute]

Visibly upset members of the Canadian Auto Workers said today that they are "furious" that the Ontario government has abandoned its responsibility to retirees by underfunding a provincial safety net for pension funds.

 

They were responding to Premier Dalton McGuinty's assertion that the province's pension safety net isn't even close to large enough to cover auto workers if General Motors goes bankrupt.

 

"To suggest that retirees will bear of the brunt of something they have no control over is just unconscionable," CAW president Ken Lewenza said at a press conference today.

 

"I can't even suggest to you how furious we are as an organization to suggest that our retirees won't be treated with decency and respect during this crisis. What good is a pension guaranteed fund if it's not there when you need it?"

 

Ontario's Pension Benefits Guarantee Fund is funded by corporate payments, not the government.

 

Experts warned in February that the fund was teetering on the edge of being wiped out and could fold if a large corporation were to go under.

 

McGuinty warned today that the fund currently has about $100 million and "comes nowhere near meeting any liabilities – for example, for the auto sector alone, to say nothing of all the other sectors."

 

CAW pension and benefits director Sym Gill estimated that if GM's Canadian pension plan were to be wound up entirely – meaning it would have to be able to cover all pensioners' benefits now and into the future – it would be about $2 billion short.

 

General Motors, which is weighing bankruptcy as an option as it continues to work on its restructuring plans, was given a holiday on contributions to its own pension fund by the provincial government in the 1990s, back when it was widely considered "too big to fail."

 

CAW economist Jim Stanford said it's because of this contribution holiday that GM's pension is so underfunded today. He added that the company was asked to contribute extra to the Pension Benefits Guarantee Fund as part of the deal, and now the government is saying the fund won't be able to cover GM's workers if the company does indeed fail.

 

Len Harrison, the CAW's retired workers representative, said the situation is unjust.

 

"All the time General Motors was putting money into the (Pension Benefits Guarantee Fund), it was paying out people, it was paying out pensioners that needed help," Harrison said.

 

"Then it gets to us and they say, 'Sorry, there's not enough money there, you're out of luck."'

 

And retired CAW members said they were worried about how they would continue to pay their bills if General Motors or Chrysler go bankrupt.

 

"It makes me very angry and helpless," said Bernie Heming, 70, who worked for GM for 33 years. "Pension was important to me when I was 20 years old and now I'm 70 and it's not there."

 

Lewenza called on all retirees who are worried about the future of their pensions to attend a rally at Queen's Park on April 23.

 

In a report late last year, pension expert Harry Arthurs recommended the province require pension funds to have assets equal to 105 per cent of their liabilities before they can stop putting funds into the plan.

 

Duncan said the government was looking at Arthurs' recommendations closely because the fund has been underfunded since its inception.

[NoMoVisteon]

Visibly upset members of the Canadian Auto Workers said today that they are "furious" that the Ontario government has abandoned its responsibility to retirees by underfunding a provincial safety net for pension funds.

 

They were responding to Premier Dalton McGuinty's assertion that the province's pension safety net isn't even close to large enough to cover auto workers if General Motors goes bankrupt.

 

"To suggest that retirees will bear of the brunt of something they have no control over is just unconscionable," CAW president Ken Lewenza said at a press conference today.

 

"I can't even suggest to you how furious we are as an organization to suggest that our retirees won't be treated with decency and respect during this crisis. What good is a pension guaranteed fund if it's not there when you need it?"

 

Ontario's Pension Benefits Guarantee Fund is funded by corporate payments, not the government.

 

Experts warned in February that the fund was teetering on the edge of being wiped out and could fold if a large corporation were to go under.

 

McGuinty warned today that the fund currently has about $100 million and "comes nowhere near meeting any liabilities – for example, for the auto sector alone, to say nothing of all the other sectors."

 

CAW pension and benefits director Sym Gill estimated that if GM's Canadian pension plan were to be wound up entirely – meaning it would have to be able to cover all pensioners' benefits now and into the future – it would be about $2 billion short.

 

General Motors, which is weighing bankruptcy as an option as it continues to work on its restructuring plans, was given a holiday on contributions to its own pension fund by the provincial government in the 1990s, back when it was widely considered "too big to fail."

 

CAW economist Jim Stanford said it's because of this contribution holiday that GM's pension is so underfunded today. He added that the company was asked to contribute extra to the Pension Benefits Guarantee Fund as part of the deal, and now the government is saying the fund won't be able to cover GM's workers if the company does indeed fail.

 

Len Harrison, the CAW's retired workers representative, said the situation is unjust.

 

"All the time General Motors was putting money into the (Pension Benefits Guarantee Fund), it was paying out people, it was paying out pensioners that needed help," Harrison said.

 

"Then it gets to us and they say, 'Sorry, there's not enough money there, you're out of luck."'

 

And retired CAW members said they were worried about how they would continue to pay their bills if General Motors or Chrysler go bankrupt.

 

"It makes me very angry and helpless," said Bernie Heming, 70, who worked for GM for 33 years. "Pension was important to me when I was 20 years old and now I'm 70 and it's not there."

 

Lewenza called on all retirees who are worried about the future of their pensions to attend a rally at Queen's Park on April 23.

 

In a report late last year, pension expert Harry Arthurs recommended the province require pension funds to have assets equal to 105 per cent of their liabilities before they can stop putting funds into the plan.

 

Duncan said the government was looking at Arthurs' recommendations closely because the fund has been underfunded since its inception.

I didn't realize how the Canadian pension boards were set up and all, damn, I feel for those brothers and sisters up there too! Nothing like the US Gov't fuckin' those of us here in the U.S. and now seeing that you folks up there in the north are getting fucked by your own gov't as well. I smell some barbeque cooking out in the woods on both sides of the border, it's called a Revolution Cookout, starring your favorite bureaucrats.........

[whereswaldo]

so here we go

 

 

GM readies for 'fast' bankruptcy

 

 

 

 

And will there be "pattern " at Ford

 

 

 

If not Ford will be at a disadvantage to GM

That will be a hard sell at Ford after they increase market share from 10-12% to 16-20%. GM wont have much of an advantage when half their assests are flushed down the toilet after a walked thru C-11.