US tire duties spark clash

[RangerM]

Here it comes. Watch closely.

 

Link to article

 

A full-blown trade row erupted on Sunday night between the US and China after Beijing accused Washington of “rampant protectionism” for imposing heavy duties on imported Chinese tyres and threatened action against imports of US poultry and vehicles.

 

Trade relations between two of the world’s biggest economies deteriorated after Barack Obama, US president, signed an order late on Friday to impose a new duty of 35 per cent on Chinese tyre imports on top of an existing 4 per cent tariff.

 

In his first big test on world trade since taking office in January, Mr Obama sided with America’s trade unions, which have complained that a “surge” in imports of Chinese-made tyres had caused 7,000 job losses among US factory workers.

 

Chen Deming, China’s minister of commerce, condemned the decision, saying that it “sends the wrong signal to the world” at a time when Washington and Beijing should be co-operating to deal with the worst economic and financial crisis in decades.

 

“This is a grave act of trade protectionism,” Mr Chen said in a statement. “Not only does it violate WTO rules, it contravenes commitments the United States government made at the [April] G20 financial summit.”

 

China said it would now investigate imports of US poultry and vehicles, responding to complaints from domestic companies....

 

Welcome to 1930.

[napfirst]

Here it comes. Watch closely.

 

Link to article

 

 

 

Welcome to 1930.

You are exactly right Ranger.....protectionism played a role in the great depression.....

[Versa-Tech]

Here it comes. Watch closely.

 

Link to article

 

 

 

Welcome to 1930.

Isn't it obvious? The Chinese are a bunch of Racist Republican Radicals! It's obviously Bush's fault.

[Len_A]

What was everyones attitude toward Chinese imports when we had contaiminated vegetable proteins imported into the United States from China and used as ingredients in pet food? Or the lead paint in children's toys imported from China?

[Mark B. Morrow]

If China is dumping tires in the USA, as is alledged, what would your solution be RangerM?

[Len_A]

If China is dumping tires in the USA, as is alledged, what would your solution be RangerM?

It's not just the possibility of the tires being dumped here, Mark. It's also everyones safety. After the possibly deliberate melamine contamination of a vegetable protein product used in dog food (I use the words "possibly deliberate", because melamine shows up in tests as a protein, even though it's not a protein, and has been used by Chinese food products factory managers to illegitmately bump up the protein content numbers of their food products), and the use of lead paint in children's toys (like most adults don't know that little children around the world almost universally put things, including toys, in their mouths), China has demonstrated that they don't play well with others in the international trade community. I don't want any safety related product imported into the United States from China, because now I can't trust them.

[macattak1]

It's not just the possibility of the tires being dumped here, Mark. It's also everyones safety. After the possibly deliberate melamine contamination of a vegetable protein product used in dog food (I use the words "possibly deliberate", because melamine shows up in tests as a protein, even though it's not a protein, and has been used by Chinese food products factory managers to illegitmately bump up the protein content numbers of their food products), and the use of lead paint in children's toys (like most adults don't know that little children around the world almost universally put things, including toys, in their mouths), China has demonstrated that they don't play well with others in the international trade community. I don't want any safety related product imported into the United States from China, because now I can't trust them.

 

Go to RV.net and look at the long list of threads on RV tires and how horrible 'some' of them can be, how dangerous they are, and how many accidents they cause. Those 'some' are all Chinese tires. I wish our country did zero business with the Chinese. So does my Chinese wife!

 

Peace and Blessings

[RangerM]

If China is dumping tires in the USA, as is alledged, what would your solution be RangerM?

Beat them at their own game.

 

Eliminate all taxes (income/capital gains) on monies earned from the exportation of imported tires (or goods).

 

Every tire dumped would then become a wealth transfer from the Chinese producer, to the American distributor, at the moment the American distributor re-exports the (formerly imported) tires.

[Len_A]

Go to RV.net and look at the long list of threads on RV tires and how horrible 'some' of them can be, how dangerous they are, and how many accidents they cause. Those 'some' are all Chinese tires. I wish our country did zero business with the Chinese. So does my Chinese wife!

 

Peace and Blessings

Same here. And I applaud you for your position.

[Len_A]

Beat them at their own game.

 

Eliminate all taxes (income/capital gains) on monies earned from the exportation of imported tires (or goods).

 

Every tire dumped would then become a wealth transfer from the Chinese producer, to the American distributor, at the moment the American distributor re-exports the (formerly imported) tires.

Nope. Can't agree. Too many past problems with tires made in China - 450,000 Chinese made truck tires in 2007 - http://money.cnn.com/2007/06/26/autos/tire_recall/

 

Plus, in addition to that problem, and the tainted dog food, and the lead paint on kids toys, there was this juicy tidbit regarding drywall - http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1239934446...=googlenews_wsj

 

I'm with macattak1 on this one - I wish we didn't do any business with China.

Edited September 14, 2009 by Len_A

[Mark B. Morrow]

Beat them at their own game.

 

Eliminate all taxes (income/capital gains) on monies earned from the exportation of imported tires (or goods).

 

Every tire dumped would then become a wealth transfer from the Chinese producer, to the American distributor, at the moment the American distributor re-exports the (formerly imported) tires.

 

 

1. What makes you think the Chinese would permit the re-importation of their tires back into China?

 

2. Don't you think that they already manufacture more than enough for their own consumption?

 

3. Assuming that China had the market for re-imported tires and permitted the same, wouldn't the transportation costs exceed the income/CG tax savings to the U.S. Importer?

 

4. Without a tariff, there would be nothing to keep China from continuing to dump tires in the USA since their manufacturers'subsidized losses would still permit them to undercut American manufacturers. The plan to pass through the tires as exports wouldn't do anything to change that. I would think that any other country we could export the tires to already has China dumping tires there as well.

[macattak1]

1. What makes you think the Chinese would permit the re-importation of their tires back into China?

 

2. Don't you think that they already manufacture more than enough for their own consumption?

 

3. Assuming that China had the market for re-imported tires and permitted the same, wouldn't the transportation costs exceed the income/CG tax savings to the U.S. Importer?

 

4. Without a tariff, there would be nothing to keep China from continuing to dump tires in the USA since their manufacturers'subsidized losses would still permit them to undercut American manufacturers. The plan to pass through the tires as exports wouldn't do anything to change that. I would think that any other country we could export the tires to already has China dumping tires there as well.

 

I don't think Ranger was talking about exporting them to China. Just exporting them period.

 

Peace and Blessings

[RangerM]

1. What makes you think the Chinese would permit the re-importation of their tires back into China?

 

2. Don't you think that they already manufacture more than enough for their own consumption?

 

3. Assuming that China had the market for re-imported tires and permitted the same, wouldn't the transportation costs exceed the income/CG tax savings to the U.S. Importer?

 

4. Without a tariff, there would be nothing to keep China from continuing to dump tires in the USA since their manufacturers'subsidized losses would still permit them to undercut American manufacturers. The plan to pass through the tires as exports wouldn't do anything to change that. I would think that any other country we could export the tires to already has China dumping tires there as well.

I never said the tires would be exported back to China. In fact, I'd count on them not being repatriated.

 

If they really are being dumped here, it's likely that they aren't being dumped everywhere else. Even China can't afford to trade a tire for less than it costs to produce it for very long without undermining their company/economy.

 

They may be underhanded, but they aren't stupid.

 

Certainly if you bring them all the way to America, then the transportation costs would hurt profitability, but it's really not necessary that you bring them here. You only need an international port.

 

If I am a distributor faced with paying a 35% corporate income tax on the profits of the sales of Chinese tires in America, I would be better off by exporting them (to another country, not China), and profiting tax free.....and I might not stop at tires if I could. The WTO hearing would be a laugh riot.

[RangerM]

Nope. Can't agree. Too many past problems with tires made in China - 450,000 Chinese made truck tires in 2007 - http://money.cnn.com/2007/06/26/autos/tire_recall/

 

Plus, in addition to that problem, and the tainted dog food, and the lead paint on kids toys, there was this juicy tidbit regarding drywall - http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1239934446...=googlenews_wsj

 

I'm with macattak1 on this one - I wish we didn't do any business with China.

While I understand your sentiment, I disagree.

 

Not that I am so gung-ho on Chinese products (except Gen. Tso's Chicken and Pork-Fried Rice), but the best impact we as Americans could have on the Chinese is for them to have a taste of our lifestyle. Remember, General Motors' most profitable current venture is in China.

[Mark B. Morrow]

I never said the tires would be exported back to China. In fact, I'd count on them not being repatriated.

 

If they really are being dumped here, it's likely that they aren't being dumped everywhere else. Even China can't afford to trade a tire for less than it costs to produce it for very long without undermining their company/economy.

 

They only need to do it long enough to cripple their American competition.

 

They may be underhanded, but they aren't stupid.

 

No they are not stupid at all. They just refuse to play by the rules eventhough they demand that we do.

 

Certainly if you bring them all the way to America, then the transportation costs would hurt profitability, but it's really not necessary that you bring them here. You only need an international port.

 

By facilitating their tire industry by buying their dumped products, aren't we just making the situation worse? In fact by eliminating income/CG taxes on sales by our distributors we would be further subsidising Chinese tires. If they are dumping everywhere then who will the American distributors sell all these tax free tires to?

 

If I am a distributor faced with paying a 35% corporate income tax on the profits of the sales of Chinese tires in America, I would be better off by exporting them (to another country, not China), and profiting tax free.....and I might not stop at tires if I could. The WTO hearing would be a laugh riot.

 

The effective tax rate isn't 35% and you know that. Then again, why would these other countries need you as a distributor taking profit on the sale when they can buy them directly from China without paying your profit?

[Mark B. Morrow]

While I understand your sentiment, I disagree.

 

Not that I am so gung-ho on Chinese products (except Gen. Tso's Chicken and Pork-Fried Rice), but the best impact we as Americans could have on the Chinese is for them to have a taste of our lifestyle. Remember, General Motors' most profitable current venture is in China.

 

 

Gen. Tso's Chicken isn't Chinese.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Tso%27s_chicken.

 

I'm pretty sure Pork Fried Rice isn't either.

[macattak1]

Gen. Tso's Chicken isn't Chinese.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Tso%27s_chicken.

 

I'm pretty sure Pork Fried Rice isn't either.

 

So, what your saying, is that the Chinese stuff is not really Chinese, but everything else is?

 

Peace and Blessings

[Mark B. Morrow]

So, what your saying, is that the Chinese stuff is not really Chinese, but everything else is?

 

Peace and Blessings

 

 

Kind of ironic isn't it? Americans are stealing China's food legacy and they are taking everything else from America. I wonder if we can export Chinese food to China?

[macattak1]

While I understand your sentiment, I disagree.

 

Not that I am so gung-ho on Chinese products (except Gen. Tso's Chicken and Pork-Fried Rice), but the best impact we as Americans could have on the Chinese is for them to have a taste of our lifestyle. Remember, General Motors' most profitable current venture is in China.

 

I used to agree with that idea too. Except that China, unlike many other countries is:

Willing to kill their own people.

Willing to jail and torture Christians.

Does not care about the environment.

Does not care about copyrights.

Does not care about patents.

Is simply biding its time to supplant Russia and eventually the US as the Military and Economic powerhouse of the world.

At which point it would probably start annexing places all over.

Etc.

 

Of course. Much of that was Russia too. But something tells me these are a different kind of Asian tiger and they don't care about anything but the communist party, money, and power.

 

I just don't like doing business with the pimp so that the prostitutes can eat.

 

Peace and Blessings

[RangerM]

They only need to do it long enough to cripple their American competition.

By using their own "dumping" tactics against them, they are made to compete against themselves.

By facilitating their tire industry by buying their dumped products, aren't we just making the situation worse? In fact by eliminating income/CG taxes on sales by our distributors we would be further subsidising Chinese tires. If they are dumping everywhere then who will the American distributors sell all these tax free tires to?

If we sold them in this country, then I'd say yes, but given that the incentive would be to not sell them in this country, then I'd say no.

 

You're assuming they're dumping them everywhere. If true, then they can't last long. And we aren't "subisidizing" Chinese tires by importing and reexporting, we're importing wealth.

The effective tax rate isn't 35% and you know that. Then again, why would these other countries need you as a distributor taking profit on the sale when they can buy them directly from China without paying your profit?

Regardless of the tax rate, any company that can make a profit (especially tax free) will.

 

These countries have their own incentives to trade with us and not China. No matter if they're intentionally dumping or not, they can't keep selling at a loss.

[RangerM]

Gen. Tso's Chicken isn't Chinese.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Tso%27s_chicken.

 

I'm pretty sure Pork Fried Rice isn't either.

All I know is I get them from a "Chinese" restaurant. Maybe I'm buying "American" and don't know it?

[RangerM]

I used to agree with that idea too. Except that China, unlike many other countries is:

Willing to kill their own people. Willing to jail and torture Christians. Does not care about the environment.

Does not care about copyrights. Does not care about patents. Is simply biding its time to supplant Russia and eventually the US as the Military and Economic powerhouse of the world. At which point it would probably start annexing places all over.

Etc.

 

Of course. Much of that was Russia too. But something tells me these are a different kind of Asian tiger and they don't care about anything but the communist party, money, and power.

 

I just don't like doing business with the pimp so that the prostitutes can eat.

 

Peace and Blessings

It wasn't so long ago that America was largely anarchistic, but as we civilized (as a population), so we became more concerned about things like human rights, property rights, and the environment. A society based on tyranny cannot last.

 

A society whose primary skill is to emulate, can never hope to lead, so long as the leader is vigilant.

[macattak1]

Kind of ironic isn't it? Americans are stealing China's food legacy and they are taking everything else from America. I wonder if we can export Chinese food to China?

 

I don't know. But I think I am going to try!

 

Peace and Blessings

[macattak1]

It wasn't so long ago that America was largely anarchistic, but as we civilized (as a population), so we became more concerned about things like human rights, property rights, and the environment. A society based on tyranny cannot last.

 

A society whose primary skill is to emulate, can never hope to lead, so long as the leader is vigilant.

 

We were anarchistic. Still are in many ways. And we are becoming more civilized each day.

 

All of the above, yours and mine are true based upon actual def of Anarchistic and Civilized.

 

The Aztecs were brutal and would still be going due to the religion, control, and power that was held over the people. 300 to 400 years. Only interrupted by the Spaniards.

 

So compared to the US. I am not sure I can agree. Further, Chinese time runs on a totally different clock compared to even the Romans. Our history is a snap shot in time for the Chinese as I am sure you'll agree. Again, kept in check by severe controls by groups that do not want to share power with anyone.

 

Now. We both know that there is something greater then that. But there is nothing in writing to show us. So it all comes down to guessing. I don't see China, doing as well as they are, with their population of slave or slave like workers, loosing steam anywhere in the next couple hundred years. Frankly, they will never disintegrate. That is not Chinese. Traditions may weaken. But it is always more enjoyable to be a proud victor then a broken looser. And if the Chinese are one thing, it is very very proud. And Catholic Guilt is nothing compared to a Chinese Mother-inlaw!!! :hysterical:

 

Peace and Blessings

[retro-man]

A couple of interesting old books, if you can find them:

- "Chinese Characteristics" (unfortunately I forget the author - I loaned it years ago to my Kung Fu teacher and never got it back)

- "Japanese Homes and Their Surroundings" by E.S. Morse

 

Both were published in the 19th Century. Both go into some depth about general characteristics: honesty, ambition, etc. etc. of the populations (in the way that only a 19th century ethnographer could), and I have found both of them to be highly accurate even today. Marxism is only the thinnest veneer on millennia of Chinese culture. The people go about their lives - pliantly submitting on the face of it to whatever emperor or regime is in power, but always - always on the make. It is folly to think that they will come around to our forms of democracy or fairness. We will long since be broke and buried.