NickF1011 Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 (edited) not really, at least in my part of the world, I jump up, I come down.a commonly accepted theory, like gravity, is called a law, in scientific mumbo jumbo. I'm not saying gravity doesn't exist, it obviously does, just as I'm not saying climate change isn't occurring. Where the objections to both theories lie is in WHY. A theory doesn't just state that something exists. It tries to explain why it exists. Edited October 20, 2009 by NickF1011 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catalepsy Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 Which law are you talking about? We know so little about gravity. The "You jumb, you come down" Newtonian Universal Law of Gravity is physics 101. Once you get into quantum mechanics and quantum gravity, there's plenty of holes in Newtonian or General Relativity. However, even quantum physics have problems. It's not really "accepted" more like "This is what we know now." not really, at least in my part of the world, I jump up, I come down.a commonly accepted theory, like gravity, is called a law, in scientific mumbo jumbo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephenhawkings Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 I'm not saying gravity doesn't exist, it obviously does, just as I'm not saying climate change isn't occurring. Where the objections to both theories lie is in WHY. A theory doesn't just state that something exists. It tries to explain why it exists. interesting hypothesis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephenhawkings Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 Which law are you talking about? We know so little about gravity. The "You jumb, you come down" Newtonian Universal Law of Gravity is physics 101. Once you get into quantum mechanics and quantum gravity, there's plenty of holes in Newtonian or General Relativity. However, even quantum physics have problems. It's not really "accepted" more like "This is what we know now." holes? or situations where the 'laws/theories' that we live in aren't applicable? if i fly to space i am certain that there are differing circumstances than you an i experience here, but aside from splitting situational hairs, the thoery of gravity has been accepted as a law, if you want to discuss the black holes and other grand schemes that don't relate to our globe maybe we should start another topic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catalepsy Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 (edited) Well my friend, even Newtonian theories such as the Gravitation Constant have disputes. Does that apply to the situation model? We hardly know all there is to know about gravity. It is not just about black holes and outer reaches of the universe. There are many interactions here on earth that we do not understand. ...But perhaps you are right...no point in arguing it. As far as the public knows: Apple falls from tree, end of story. holes? or situations where the 'laws/theories' that we live in aren't applicable? if i fly to space i am certain that there are differing circumstances than you an i experience here, but aside from splitting situational hairs, the thoery of gravity has been accepted as a law, if you want to discuss the black holes and other grand schemes that don't relate to our globe maybe we should start another topic. Edited October 21, 2009 by Catalepsy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xr7g428 Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 SH, do you have a GPS? a cell phone, a TV satellite receiver? If you have any of these, then you are already living in a world where the gravitational constant doesn't work. Because it doesn't work, those satellites experience time at a different rate than we do here on the ground. Just because you don't know a thing, doesn't make it false. Gravity is still a theory, because we know that we don't know every thing there is to know. Laws require proof. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephenhawkings Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 SH, do you have a GPS? a cell phone, a TV satellite receiver? If you have any of these, then you are already living in a world where the gravitational constant doesn't work. Because it doesn't work, those satellites experience time at a different rate than we do here on the ground. Just because you don't know a thing, doesn't make it false. Gravity is still a theory, because we know that we don't know every thing there is to know. Laws require proof. time? or gravity? effects my cell phone, i think my plan is by the minutes! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 holes? or situations where the 'laws/theories' that we live in aren't applicable? if i fly to space i am certain that there are differing circumstances than you an i experience here, but aside from splitting situational hairs, the thoery of gravity has been accepted as a law, if you want to discuss the black holes and other grand schemes that don't relate to our globe maybe we should start another topic. Well, if you want another example where there is a lot more palpable "gray area" we can look at the theory of evolution. Science concurs that it exists, but there are still thousands of unanswered questions about how it works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catalepsy Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 (edited) I think most people can only relate to their perceivable physical world within the level of human senses. Everything else is irrelevant so why even bother. LOL Well, if you want another example where there is a lot more palpable "gray area" we can look at the theory of evolution. Science concurs that it exists, but there are still thousands of unanswered questions about how it works. Edited October 21, 2009 by Catalepsy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephenhawkings Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 Well, if you want another example where there is a lot more palpable "gray area" we can look at the theory of evolution. Science concurs that it exists, but there are still thousands of unanswered questions about how it works. especially when you have a religious fanatic stating the evolution menas that a goat can give birth to a dog! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xr7g428 Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 Gravitational time dilation is the effect of time passing at different rates in regions of different gravitational potential; the lower the gravitational potential (closer to the center of a massive object), the more slowly clocks run. Albert Einstein originally predicted this effect in his theory of relativity and it has since been confirmed by tests of general relativity. If there were not corrections to the time differences between the satellites and earth, your cell phone, GPS and Satellite TV would not work. The point is that this is an everyday proof that you live in a world where the Newtonian gravity constant does not work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnjyi Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 Just think, y'all...come December 21, 2012, none of this will matter, right? Of course, if these fanatics really care about some sort of statistical symmetry or anything, the date would likely be 12-21-2112. This was just a joke. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephenhawkings Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 Gravitational time dilation is the effect of time passing at different rates in regions of different gravitational potential; the lower the gravitational potential (closer to the center of a massive object), the more slowly clocks run. Albert Einstein originally predicted this effect in his theory of relativity and it has since been confirmed by tests of general relativity. If there were not corrections to the time differences between the satellites and earth, your cell phone, GPS and Satellite TV would not work. The point is that this is an everyday proof that you live in a world where the Newtonian gravity constant does not work. this can alos be illustrated in elementary school on the merry go round, those in the middle mover at a different rate than those on the out side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 (edited) this can alos be illustrated in elementary school on the merry go round, those in the middle mover at a different rate than those on the out side. They move at a different speed, but they still experience time the same (unless you had a merry-go-round so large that those on the outside were exceeding the speed of light ). Not the same comparison. Edited October 21, 2009 by NickF1011 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catalepsy Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 (edited) Man, who would have thought the BON message board would be a place for physics discussions...and to explain it to the name of Stephen Hawking(s)... It's too perfect! They move at a different speed, but they still experience time the same (unless you had a merry-go-round so large that those on the outside were exceeding the speed of light ). Not the same comparison. Edited October 22, 2009 by Catalepsy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 Man, who would have thought the BON message board would be a place for physics discussions...and to explain it to the name of Stephen Hawking(s)... It's too perfect! This is still basic physics here. I've seen some of the message boards my oldest brother posts on (the physicist). I don't even know what half the words mean. :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomServo92 Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 especially when you have a religious fanatic stating the evolution menas that a goat can give birth to a dog! Just thought I let you know that you spelled "Valdez" wrong in your signature. OK, back to the physics lesson.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catalepsy Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 I wonder if they have trolls on physics message boards... Ummm... This is still basic physics here. I've seen some of the message boards my oldest brother posts on (the physicist). I don't even know what half the words mean. :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomServo92 Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 I wonder if they have trolls on physics message boards... Ummm... Apparantely so! http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=146340 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralph Greene Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 Among Scientists, there is no doubt about Global warming. They have long term data about ocean temps, artic temps, polar ice volumes, ocean water heights, and green house gas measurements. They don't even feel the need to mask it with "climate change" wording. I think they also have adequate proof a good deal of the change is man made. Unfortunately, doing much about it is tough to do. And there is also the question of does it really matter? Because as many point out, earth's temps do vary. This has also been a cold summer in some parts of US. And many folks don't understand the difference between weather and climate. Lobbying groups representing the status quo have done a good job, as evidenced by rhetoric on here, in creating uncertainty and confusion about the subject. And current economic situation is creating more problems for Americans than just the idea the oceans are rising and may flood out coastal cities many generations in the future. And since the climate varies naturally....it's difficult to prove what causes this. However....who can deny cleaning up the air is a good idea? I also think this idea of "cap and trade" is not best way to do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ford Jellymoulds Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 Global Warming = more tax for you to pay = more government revenue for them to waste on themselves. Something we used to call the weather is now the new a massive tax raising revenue machine of which none of the revenue will find its way back to the automakers who should getting the lions share of the billions of $$$$ ££££ etc of huge tax revenue governments receive from motorist to help fix the problems. I will be Global Warmings No1 fan when the UK government starts to use the billions of ££££ in Global Warming tax revenue it has raped from the British motorist & airline passengers by giving all tax revenue back to those that are faced with the expense of solving fixing the problem like the Fords & Boeings of this world, rather than using the tax revenue to pay for British Government gold plated pensions employee's inflation busting pay rises whilst the private sector worker don't get pay rises and their pension funds are getting raped closed down falling apart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xr7g428 Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 Ralph, I hate to say it, but your response almost perfectly encapsulates the view of the uninformed. Some scientists believe in the entire CO2= Global warming = we can effect the temperature = cap and trade of CO2 only will do the trick. Most real scientists realize first, that this is a mix of things scientific, and non scientific, ie, cap and trade is not a scientific anything. A physical scientist is unlikely to offer a SCIENTIFIC opinion of any kind of social engineering. It is not with in the field of expertise. Do not go to an MD for engineering solutions. Next you attack the intelligence of any one that does not agree with the position saying that they are influenced by lobby groups. Then you go on to suggest that massive sea level rise will flood coastal areas. This scenario has been discredited repeatedly and doesn't even appear in the IPCC worst case. And then you top it off by suggesting that changing CO2 levels amounts to cleaning up the air. CO2 is a trace element that poses no direct threat to humans, and is absolutely essential to plant life. And above all, you should realize that we have burned up all of the easily obtainable fossil fuel over the last hundred years. The curves of CO2 production in the future require a supply of oil and gas and coal that just doesn't exist. This is problem with it's own solution built in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralph Greene Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 Ralph, I hate to say it, but your response almost perfectly encapsulates the view of the uninformed. Some scientists believe in the entire CO2= Global warming = we can effect the temperature = cap and trade of CO2 only will do the trick. Most real scientists realize first, that this is a mix of things scientific, and non scientific, ie, cap and trade is not a scientific anything. A physical scientist is unlikely to offer a SCIENTIFIC opinion of any kind of social engineering. It is not with in the field of expertise. Do not go to an MD for engineering solutions. Next you attack the intelligence of any one that does not agree with the position saying that they are influenced by lobby groups. Then you go on to suggest that massive sea level rise will flood coastal areas. This scenario has been discredited repeatedly and doesn't even appear in the IPCC worst case. And then you top it off by suggesting that changing CO2 levels amounts to cleaning up the air. CO2 is a trace element that poses no direct threat to humans, and is absolutely essential to plant life. And above all, you should realize that we have burned up all of the easily obtainable fossil fuel over the last hundred years. The curves of CO2 production in the future require a supply of oil and gas and coal that just doesn't exist. This is problem with it's own solution built in. Just to be clear....Are you saying man has not influenced global temperatures in any way? I am saying we have. Can we stop some of this....I am saying we can. Does it matter? Do temperatures naturally vary enough so that none of what we do matters? That I don't know. BTW....I think you put some words in my mouth I didn't say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catalepsy Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 (edited) I disagree with this part. Compare population growth to whatever fraction of reduction in pollution, it is still increasing rapidly. It is like how Congress cuts budget; they don't really cut spending, they just cut the expected increase. Frankly our medical technology have allowed us to live longer have give birth to more...that is the problem. The natural thing to do is to allow flus to kill people...to allow nature to manage population. ...But since that's not going to happen... I been promised either: Mad Max style apocalypse, zombie apocalypse, or some type of alien apocalypse...I'm hoping for Mad Max becase of the cool cars. Can we stop some of this....I am saying we can. Edited October 23, 2009 by Catalepsy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ford Jellymoulds Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 (edited) I disagree with this part. Compare population growth to whatever fraction of reduction in pollution, it is still increasing rapidly. It is like how Congress cuts budget; they don't really cut spending, they just cut the expected increase. Frankly our medical technology have allowed us to live longer have give birth to more...that is the problem. The natural thing to do is to allow flus to kill people...to allow nature to manage population. ...But since that's not going to happen... I been promised either: Mad Max style apocalypse, zombie apocalypse, or some type of alien apocalypse...I'm hoping for Mad Max becase of the cool cars. Florida will be under water at least it will keep the large rodent problem they have under control in Orlando. UK will get a Mediterranean climate so l am not complaining :happy feet: With a Mediterranean climate in the UK, l won't need to put my gas central heating for most of the winter anymore, so cutting down on massive winter heating bills & cutting my winter central heating greenhouse gases to ZERO emissions x 20 million UK homes with no CO2 from coal, electric & central heating systems being used anymore how green is that :happy feet: Edited October 23, 2009 by Ford Jellymoulds Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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