Ford pays down debt, posts $1.7B Q3

[SU-FI]

Detroit News Link

[The Dirty One DTP]

Detroit News Link

Come on I want to hear all the communists come out and critisize this move by the company saying how unfair it is to the workers or how they should have given US some of that $$

[wildosvt]

All I do is laugh at the people who get suckered in the profit bonus BS. You won't have a clue til feburary I bet.

[Twincam Harley]

Ford has no choice but to pay down their debt and obligations. I think they're doing a very good job at doing so. If sales and profits are this good in a down economy, just think how good things will be when the economy recovers. We need to keep building quality vehicles that Americans want.

[The Dirty One DTP]

Ford has no choice but to pay down their debt and obligations. I think they're doing a very good job at doing so. If sales and profits are this good in a down economy, just think how good things will be when the economy recovers. We need to keep building quality vehicles that Americans want.

Wait until they launch the new Focus early next year..If the economy improves next year and construction picks up F150 sales along with the new Focus should carry this company. I read yesterday where they make an average of 10k per truck!..at 1200 a day that they build at dtp..wow do the math..no wonder they get pissed when the line stops!!

[uawxlt]

Wait until they launch the new Focus early next year..If the economy improves next year and construction picks up F150 sales along with the new Focus should carry this company. I read yesterday where they make an average of 10k per truck!..at 1200 a day that they build at dtp..wow do the math..no wonder they get pissed when the line stops!!

+600 f-150s and 1200 escapes built a day at kcap

they don't think of just lost profit they count the total loss i believe its about

38k per truck and 26k suv for every min. of down time

[Trimdingman]

+600 f-150s and 1200 escapes built a day at kcap

they don't think of just lost profit they count the total loss i believe its about

38k per truck and 26k suv for every min. of down time

 

They don't lose the profit on a vehicle for every minute of down time. All they lose is what it costs for labor to make it up. If final is down for a minute; trim, body and paint keep working. To make up for down time on final, for example, they run final overtime. If there are 200 workers on final, the cost per car at one car a minute is 200 man-minutes pay at time and a half. At $30 an hour, that is $45 an hour for time and a half times three hours and twenty minutes, which is $150 per car.

[SU-FI]

They don't lose the profit on a vehicle for every minute of down time. All they lose is what it costs for labor to make it up. If final is down for a minute; trim, body and paint keep working. To make up for down time on final, for example, they run final overtime. If there are 200 workers on final, the cost per car at one car a minute is 200 man-minutes pay at time and a half. At $30 an hour, that is $45 an hour for time and a half times three hours and twenty minutes, which is $150 per car.

 

if the car is costing more to build by building it on O.T. then the profit on that car is going to go down. i don't get where you say they don't lose profit for down time.

[Trimdingman]

if the car is costing more to build by building it on O.T. then the profit on that car is going to go down. i don't get where you say they don't lose profit for down time.

They lose the $150 it costs to make up the lost production of one car. They do not lose the $20,000,( or what ever it is) profit for that car. The car isn't "lost" just because there is a space in the line. All that is lost is one minute of labor from each person who gets that space. They had to pay a couple of hundred people one minute's pay for doing nothing. That is not free, but it is not $20,000 dollars either. It is about $150.

[Grim Reaper]

They lose the $150 it costs to make up the lost production of one car. They do not lose the $20,000,( or what ever it is) profit for that car. The car isn't "lost" just because there is a space in the line. All that is lost is one minute of labor from each person who gets that space. They had to pay a couple of hundred people one minute's pay for doing nothing. That is not free, but it is not $20,000 dollars either. It is about $150.

 

1 minute of down time hourly labor with 1,200 on a shift = $600

 

every minute of down time = loss of profit on the vehicle not built, loss on utilities for the plant, loss on benefits, loss on product development, loss on advetising etc...

 

If a plant like KTP was down for 1 hour you would see a total loss of about 1.2 million in profits alone.

[Trimdingman]

1 minute of down time hourly labor with 1,200 on a shift = $600

 

every minute of down time = loss of profit on the vehicle not built, loss on utilities for the plant, loss on benefits, loss on product development, loss on advetising etc...

 

If a plant like KTP was down for 1 hour you would see a total loss of about 1.2 million in profits alone.

 

The whole plant would not be down, just one segment. There are fail-safe mechanisms in place everywhere to ensure that does not happen in case of an isolated failure. If the whole plant was down for one hour, and the lost production had to be made up on overtime, which would be the worst case scenario, the cost would be 1200 workers at time and a half for one hour. At $30 per hour; time and a half would be $45 an hour. Multiply that by 1200 workers and it would come out to $54.000. There would be other costs, like salaried wages, electricity for one hour, etc, but nowhere near 1.2 million dollars. Sixty cars at $20,000 profit per car would coincidently come out to 1.2 million dollars. Are you trying to say that if the plant is down for an hour, those units will never be built and sold? The cars are still there, just in pieces, not put together. They were delayed being put together for one hour. That adds 1200 man hours of labor to their cost at time and a half. It does not mean that they were destroyed, or magically disappeared along with their buyers. This is a myth that has been perpetrated for a long time, and there are many who dumbly believe it. I hope that the company isn't writing off 1.2 million dollars for each hour of downtime. That would be a big no-no.

Edited October 30, 2010 by Trimdingman

[rn4]

The whole plant would not be down, just one segment. There are fail-safe mechanisms in place everywhere to ensure that does not happen in case of an isolated failure. If the whole plant was down for one hour, and the lost production had to be made up on overtime, which would be the worst case scenario, the cost would be 1200 workers at time and a half for one hour. At $30 per hour; time and a half would be $45 an hour. Multiply that by 1200 workers and it would come out to $54.000. There would be other costs, like salaried wages, electricity for one hour, etc, but nowhere near 1.2 million dollars. Sixty cars at $20,000 profit per car would coincidently come out to 1.2 million dollars. Are you trying to say that if the plant is down for an hour, those units will never be built and sold? The cars are still there, just in pieces, not put together. They were delayed being put together for one hour. That adds 1200 man hours of labor to their cost at time and a half. It does not mean that they were destroyed, or magically disappeared along with their buyers. This is a myth that has been perpetrated for a long time, and there are many who dumbly believe it. I hope that the company isn't writing off 1.2 million dollars for each hour of downtime. That would be a big no-no.

 

 

If you lose 1 hour of production and you can't take that many orders at the end of the model year you have lost those units. The plant gets payed by the number of units that come off the end of chassis.

[Trimdingman]

If you lose 1 hour of production and you can't take that many orders at the end of the model year you have lost those units. The plant gets payed by the number of units that come off the end of chassis.

 

 

That would be a very rare occurance. Normally, lost production can be made up with overtime. If a model is oversold, that means it was priced too low. The losses would be much more than the profits from the lost orders. There would also be losses from the sold units being under-priced. Sometimes, the company will eat these kinds of losses in order to maintain bragging rights. There are many variables in this equation. My point is that a gap in the line does not mean a lost car, which is what many believe.

Edited October 31, 2010 by Trimdingman

[uawxlt]

They don't lose the profit on a vehicle for every minute of down time. All they lose is what it costs for labor to make it up. If final is down for a minute; trim, body and paint keep working. To make up for down time on final, for example, they run final overtime. If there are 200 workers on final, the cost per car at one car a minute is 200 man-minutes pay at time and a half. At $30 an hour, that is $45 an hour for time and a half times three hours and twenty minutes, which is $150 per car.

i understand that

i'm just stating that local management counts it as total loss of a vehicle per minute

if they disicpline a employee for downtime its always i lost 5 jobs and that cost us 38,000 per unit because that unit will not go off the end as scheduled or may never be built ie dealer stock is not ordered

dealer stock is set by Ford so actual loss versus total loss

[Armstrong]

all plants operate at a loss unless they run 3 full shifts of production

[Trimdingman]

i understand that

i'm just stating that local management counts it as total loss of a vehicle per minute

if they disicpline a employee for downtime its always i lost 5 jobs and that cost us 38,000 per unit because that unit will not go off the end as scheduled or may never be built ie dealer stock is not ordered

dealer stock is set by Ford so actual loss versus total loss

 

 

They are lying if they say that.

[Cocheese]

all plants operate at a loss unless they run 3 full shifts of production

 

STAP is running on 1 shift and is still more profitable then the majority of Ford's other facilities.

 

In fact, STAP has never run on 3 shifts, and has always been one of the most profitable plants.

 

Sorry parts, looks like you are telling more lies.

[Tool&DieApprentice]

I have to say the math your doing is so right on dude, your right.. People don't have a clue how to figure out downtime loss per vehicle.

 

Also what you left out is the fact that the company has a made itself a surplus of vehicles to make up for that 1 minute of downtime (or whatever it is). The company isn't really losing anything. With a surplus they are actually always in the profit margin.

 

Look at the F150 trucks at DTP, they are storing them in the other parking lot now, they have a surplus of trucks. There is no way the line being down for even 1 whole week would effect the profit margin.

 

The company even admitted they sold 30,000 more vehicles last quarter (on the concessions we took tho to help them out).. They are raining in profits right and left and if you don't believe that, better take your head out from under the rock.

 

 

Well yes, Ford uses creative accounting skills to show they lost 38k for a minute of downtime, when they really didnt. Keep in mind when Ford has us work overtime, even though they are paying us time and a half, they actually save money because the cost per employee per hour is based on 40 hours per week. When they pay me overtime, they arent paying my health insurance,vacation, etc. It is included in my 40 hour work week. So Ive heard from Congress we are paid 75 bucks per hour when working 40 hours, on overtime we are only in the 42 buck per hour range because our benefits are included in the first 40 hours a week only. It all depends on who is doing the fuzzy math.

[Trimdingman]

Well yes, Ford uses creative accounting skills to show they lost 38k for a minute of downtime, when they really didnt. Keep in mind when Ford has us work overtime, even though they are paying us time and a half, they actually save money because the cost per employee per hour is based on 40 hours per week. When they pay me overtime, they arent paying my health insurance,vacation, etc. It is included in my 40 hour work week. So Ive heard from Congress we are paid 75 bucks per hour when working 40 hours, on overtime we are only in the 42 buck per hour range because our benefits are included in the first 40 hours a week only. It all depends on who is doing the fuzzy math.

 

 

Thank-you. I was beginning to think that I was in The Twilight Zone. I hope that the government is not allowing them to write off on their taxes what they are trying to pawn off on us. That would be robbing the taxpayers of the country. I would like to see lower taxes, but done in a fair and honest way.

[Marginal Economist]

Well yes, Ford uses creative accounting skills to show they lost 38k for a minute of downtime, when they really didnt. Keep in mind when Ford has us work overtime, even though they are paying us time and a half, they actually save money because the cost per employee per hour is based on 40 hours per week. When they pay me overtime, they arent paying my health insurance,vacation, etc. It is included in my 40 hour work week. So Ive heard from Congress we are paid 75 bucks per hour when working 40 hours, on overtime we are only in the 42 buck per hour range because our benefits are included in the first 40 hours a week only. It all depends on who is doing the fuzzy math.

If it takes 41 hours instead of 40 hours to build 2500 vehicles, Ford did not save money. If they were building incremental vehicles, above and beyond what was scheduled and planned, and they were all sold, Ford could see some cost savings.

[Trimdingman]

If it takes 41 hours instead of 40 hours to build 2500 vehicles, Ford did not save money. If they were building incremental vehicles, above and beyond what was scheduled and planned, and they were all sold, Ford could see some cost savings.

 

????? If Ford loses one hour of production, all they lose is the cost of one hour's labor, not the retail price of 60 cars. If they really need to make up the lost production, they can run overtime. Nothing is lost. There are plenty of cars in the pipeline between the assembly line and the dealers' lots. An interruption on the assembly line would not be any more serious than a traffic jam delaying a convoy shipment.

[Marginal Economist]

????? If Ford loses one hour of production, all they lose is the cost of one hour's labor, not the retail price of 60 cars. If they really need to make up the lost production, they can run overtime. Nothing is lost. There are plenty of cars in the pipeline between the assembly line and the dealers' lots. An interruption on the assembly line would not be any more serious than a traffic jam delaying a convoy shipment.

 

I agree. They lose the cost of 1 hour (at 1.5x pay) per employee that had to work overtime. I was replying to the person who said Ford saves money paying overtime. This line specifically - "Keep in mind when Ford has us work overtime, even though they are paying us time and a half, they actually save money because the cost per employee per hour is based on 40 hours per week."

[Marginal Economist]

????? If Ford loses one hour of production, all they lose is the cost of one hour's labor, not the retail price of 60 cars. If they really need to make up the lost production, they can run overtime. Nothing is lost.

 

Depends on the line. There is greater demand at dealerships than supply on many vehicle lines. If we could use that hour to pick up an incremental 60 units, that would be nice. Demand for Fusion and F-Series is very high right now.

[Trimdingman]

I agree. They lose the cost of 1 hour (at 1.5x pay) per employee that had to work overtime. I was replying to the person who said Ford saves money paying overtime. This line specifically - "Keep in mind when Ford has us work overtime, even though they are paying us time and a half, they actually save money because the cost per employee per hour is based on 40 hours per week."

 

 

Marginal Economist's statement is correct, according to Ford's own numbers. I doubt that benefits actually cost that much. Benefits are a fixed cost. They are paid no matter how many hours are worked. Wages vary depending on how many hours are worked. The added cost of overtime does not affect the amount spent on benefits. Actually, it reduces the amount paid on benefits per hour worked. Therefore, if the numbers are as Ford says, it could be argued that overtime is cheaper than regular 40 hours, even paid at time and a half. The overtime premium is less than the amount paid for benefits.

Edited November 3, 2010 by Trimdingman

[Trimdingman]

Depends on the line. There is greater demand at dealerships than supply on many vehicle lines. If we could use that hour to pick up an incremental 60 units, that would be nice. Demand for Fusion and F-Series is very high right now.

 

 

This situation should be rectified on the pricing end. When you try to rush production, you end up with quality issues which hurt you much more in the long run. Plants are not running at full capacity. They can still schedule week-end overtime if needed to make up lost production. If they are that far behind, they need to raise prices to cool things off.

Edited November 3, 2010 by Trimdingman