Ford plant retools work rules

[cecilmeyer]

I get so pissed when I read posts like this. What, do you have no legs? Have you put yourself in a postion where they can piss on your head every day at work and you have to take it? If so that's the fault of the uaw.

You get pissed about what exactly?The fact that That I can see the bigger picture?That wage cuts are just the beginning.Why do the execs continue to get raises,bonuse etc when companies continue to supposedly loose money?I do not have to take anything.I decide what to take and what not to take.If you want to give concessions then do so.Or lets put it to a vote.Maybe it will pass again with another 51% margin.I get pissed when people like you never want to stand up for anything.You honestly think corporations have your best interest in mind?The unions are being destroyed because of your mindset.I do not if if you are a union member or not.If you are you need to realise you would have none of the benefits that you take for granted.If you think the company would have willingly given you those benefits then you need to study a bit more about why labor unions were created in the first place.

[TCAP'er]

I will address your replies.

1.I am not nquite convinced Ford is not making money,just not what they would like of course and secondly.they do alot of creative accounting as we shall call it.

2.Why is having benefits second to none a crime?I think maybe your family members are not being treated fairly since we pay more for health care than any other industralised nation and our life expectency is shorter.

3.Now you say they need a union?You imply thats what is wrong with Ford and GM.

4.I am not in skilled trades.

a.Non skilled workers are paid too much?Says who?You?Or is it that the world market says so?Americans made excellent wages before our so called free trade agreements.Wages have since been dropping for workers to compete with third world wages when will that end?Never, till we are at the bottom with them.You say a 10 or 15% wage cut is fair?What makes you think it will stop there?Then the old "We have to be competetive'' arguement will just seem to keep raising its ugly head.If you think we will be rewarded for taking concessions you are not on the same planet as the rest of us.

b.I agree 100%

c.I agree 100%

d.I agree 100%

e.I again agree 100%.

I would not have a problem evolving if we were not being lied to by both the company and the union.Prove to me you will keep your word then we can talk,but I will not "EVOLVE" until its been shown I will not be dealt with deceitfully.

 

Damn!!!! that's deep.

[cecilmeyer]

That Ford asked you to approve a MOA, then years later had to close your plant anyway means that Ford is doing only what they must do when they must do it. Had they know how market conditions would deteriorate they probably should have closed your plant instead of asking you to approve a MOA back then. Had things stayed the same the MOA may have been enough – it wasn’t and now more drastic measures are required.

 

If someone you love goes to a doctor and is told they need to have an operation to remove something and later the patient dies anyway are you going to blame the doctor for wasting the operation? Wasn’t it worth the attempt to save the whole? Look at the MOA your plant approved in the same light, “it was a nice try but in the end it wasn’t enoughâ€.

 

I understand your bitterness but my God man, look at the facts and try to fix the problems as they exist now. It seems your strategy would be to HURT the company so they won’t have money to build in Mexico. How do you think keeping non-competitive plants open, at current wages and benefit burdens, with old work rules, helps solve the problem? If they kept doing business the old way they won’t survive. You can help yourself the most by doing what the company requires you to do for the eight hours pay you receive. No one is going to be asked to do anything unsafe.

You understand my bitterness?Let me state for the Blueoval audience I am not bitter.Why is it when someone has been down this road before and they do not want to do it again they are bitter?So benefits are a burden?A burden compared to who or what ?The third world?Doing what kind of business?They can make products people want.Why did the fusion have to be built in Mexico?What are they paying the Mexican workers?A $1.50 an hour maybe?Please do not say that is good money in Mexico it is not.What is a non -competetive plant?A plant that will not work for less than a third world one?Even if Ford does survive what makes you think your pension and benefits will?It will be seen as you say a BURDEN.

[cecilmeyer]

Or, if he can't change his way of thinking, he can take a buyout and help the rest of us that want to work for Ford, and see it succeed.

Why don't you take a buyout and help the rest of us union workers .If you want to work for minimum wage then quit.There are plenty of those jobs.If you think your gracious concessions will supposedly save Ford then you are a fool.So let me understand this when Ford supposedly returns to profitability they will return the benefits you gave up?No the money will go to everyone else but the people who made it possible.The bottom line is this, corporations do not care about you or your future no matter how much dedication or hard work you have given them.Keep giving and keep groveling and see where it gets you.The fact is the countries with the highest percentage of unions have the lowest poverty rates,Scandinavia for example.Why is that?

[butthead]

Damm, somebody shit their pants in here

[FLORIDA RETIREE]

QUOTE(Pioneer @ Jul 13 2006, 01:09 AM)

 

Or, if he can't change his way of thinking, he can take a buyout and help the rest of us that want to work for Ford, and see it succeed.

 

Why don't you take a buyout and help the rest of us union workers .If you want to work for minimum wage then quit.There are plenty of those jobs.If you think your gracious concessions will supposedly save Ford then you are a fool.So let me understand this when Ford supposedly returns to profitability they will return the benefits you gave up?No the money will go to everyone else but the people who made it possible.The bottom line is this, corporations do not care about you or your future no matter how much dedication or hard work you have given them.Keep giving and keep groveling and see where it gets you.The fact is the countries with the highest percentage of unions have the lowest poverty rates,Scandinavia for example.Why is that?

 

Cecil.

 

With all due respect. You've made your point, now how about looking at the situation from

the perspective of others?

 

If Ford cannot return to profitability, then everyone suffers - including those who have

already retired or are about to do so. As a retired Ford employee, the only way I can

help the company financially is to give up additional benefits?

 

What about you? If you are currently working for Ford and getting paid to do so, your

attitude can make a difference.

 

You have two choices:

 

You can be open minded about doing what needs to be done to help the company survive

and act accordingly or you can be a part of the problem by living in the past and

automatically mistrusting the motives and actions of those who are working hard to turn

things around.

 

In your response to Pioneer, you said "If you want to work for minimum wage then quit.

There are plenty of those jobs."

 

Where did you come up with the notion that he or anyone else was willing to "work for

minimum wage" ?

 

Although you say "I am not bitter," the statements you've made on this forum sure

had me fooled.

[Imawhosure]

I will address your replies.

1.I am not nquite convinced Ford is not making money,just not what they would like of course and secondly.they do alot of creative accounting as we shall call it.

 

 

That one statement is the only one that counts.

 

Wall Street knows Ford is in reasonably deep doo, so do shareholders as their investments drop,(of which at least some of you may be) not to mention, if it was all smoke and mirrors accounting, those Wall Street sharks woulda been snapping the shares up long ago.

 

It is quite easy to paint a scenario that says Ford is lieing, especially when you want to have an EXCUSE, and not a REASON, to face reality. Making up fantasy scenarios that fit facts totally opposite of what is real is almost laughable.

 

If Ford is not at least reasonably close in their assesment of what they perceive at least a large part of to be the problem to be, then I ask you this

 

----------------------------------------------------->why is it that virtually all the car companys with financial problems are UAW???

 

No, forgive me, I am in error, let me rephrase--------------------->why is it that almost all; if not all, car manufacturers that have a UAW workforce are in financial trouble, especially the ones who are paying for promised benefits?!?!?!?!?!?!?!(this does not mean that they are not owed, but rather to point out that Ford is not misleading us)

 

Are we to believe that the luck of the draw has each of these manufacturers under the gun because of something each of them did? The law of probability says that even if you tried to make such a case, everyone would be laughing so hard, they would never get past the first sentence.

 

To try and insist that we should take a hard line and damn the torpedoes is just plain dumb.

 

To insist that no torpedoes exist is fantasyland; a fantasyland of factual errors created by those who either have their head in the sand, can't or refuse to read financial reports, or possibly are trying to protect cushy jobs that they know will cease to exist.

 

Or, to insist that we not change course as needed to keep the ship floating, are just plain economically suicidal, and are attempting to convince everyone to drink that infamous koolaid with them............since we all know that---------->misery loves company!!!!!!

 

Change or die............and it won't be Ford, it will be the Ford UAW.

 

I don't wanna give anything back!!!!! But 90% of something, is a whole lot better than 100% of nothing.

 

Until one of these shithouse lawyer accountants can show us some financial statistics that Ford either has the economic advantage, or certainly at least economic parity in cost, as far as I am concerned they are just irritants who are NOT working towards a solution, but rather working towards malicious confusion that will undoubtedly cause the rest of us disaster!!!!!

 

I challenge them to show any kind of proof that the financial wizards of Wall Street are wrong, and their feeble convoluted theorys are right!!

 

It does NOT mean we should be happy these purveyors of nonsense are wrong, but rather as adults, we face the facts and come to some sort of reasonable conclusion in an effort to fix what is broken for ourselves and familys, then proceed from there.

[CSMJ]

That one statement is the only one that counts.

 

Wall Street knows Ford is in reasonably deep doo, so do shareholders as their investments drop,(of which at least some of you may be) not to mention, if it was all smoke and mirrors accounting, those Wall Street sharks woulda been snapping the shares up long ago.

 

It is quite easy to paint a scenario that says Ford is lieing, especially when you want to have an EXCUSE, and not a REASON, to face reality. Making up fantasy scenarios that fit facts totally opposite of what is real is almost laughable.

 

If Ford is not at least reasonably close in their assesment of what they perceive at least a large part of to be the problem to be, then I ask you this

 

----------------------------------------------------->why is it that virtually all the car companys with financial problems are UAW???

 

No, forgive me, I am in error, let me rephrase--------------------->why is it that almost all; if not all, car manufacturers that have a UAW workforce are in financial trouble, especially the ones who are paying for promised benefits?!?!?!?!?!?!?!(this does not mean that they are not owed, but rather to point out that Ford is not misleading us)

 

Are we to believe that the luck of the draw has each of these manufacturers under the gun because of something each of them did? The law of probability says that even if you tried to make such a case, everyone would be laughing so hard, they would never get past the first sentence.

 

To try and insist that we should take a hard line and damn the torpedoes is just plain dumb.

 

To insist that no torpedoes exist is fantasyland; a fantasyland of factual errors created by those who either have their head in the sand, can't or refuse to read financial reports, or possibly are trying to protect cushy jobs that they know will cease to exist.

 

Or, to insist that we not change course as needed to keep the ship floating, are just plain economically suicidal, and are attempting to convince everyone to drink that infamous koolaid with them............since we all know that---------->misery loves company!!!!!!

 

Change or die............and it won't be Ford, it will be the Ford UAW.

 

I don't wanna give anything back!!!!! But 90% of something, is a whole lot better than 100% of nothing.

 

Until one of these shithouse lawyer accountants can show us some financial statistics that Ford either has the economic advantage, or certainly at least economic parity in cost, as far as I am concerned they are just irritants who are NOT working towards a solution, but rather working towards malicious confusion that will undoubtedly cause the rest of us disaster!!!!!

 

I challenge them to show any kind of proof that the financial wizards of Wall Street are wrong, and their feeble convoluted theorys are right!!

 

It does NOT mean we should be happy these purveyors of nonsense are wrong, but rather as adults, we face the facts and come to some sort of reasonable conclusion in an effort to fix what is broken for ourselves and familys, then proceed from there.

So tell me why BIG brokerage houses are buying FORD STOCK in grobes.

Yes that's right they know something YOU don't.

It will go up like APPLE did.

later

I got my info. on cnbc.com look up F Ford stock and it states this about the stock.

And Ford made money last year and they will this year so get your facts straight if your going to put down the UAW

Look at the last 15 years of profits and i'll bet the UAW plants made bookoo CASH

Ford made well over over $$30 billion from 94-98 this is after all the upgrades on machinary and property they bought!!

[Imawhosure]

So tell me why BIG brokerage houses are buying FORD STOCK in grobes.

Yes that's right they know something YOU don't.

It will go up like APPLE did.

later

I got my info. on cnbc.com look up F Ford stock and it states this about the stock.

And Ford made money last year and they will this year so get your facts straight if your going to put down the UAW

Look at the last 15 years of profits and i'll bet the UAW plants made bookoo CASH

Ford made well over over $$30 billion from 94-98 this is after all the upgrades on machinary and property they bought!!

 

Your ridiculous comeback needs little fact to dispute your obviously non financial mind.

 

1. If as you state the stock was being purchased in droves by brokerage houses, by the law of supply and demand, the stock price would be rising like GMs. It rises by who wants it, how bad they want it, and how much is available to purchase in the markets.

 

2.Look at the last 15yrs??? How about we look at the last 20 or 25!!!!

 

You made a good point.......except for one thing---------->my mother made 30 thousand bucks 15yrs ago, died 14yrs ago, wanna hire her???? The past means nothing if the facts you must compete under change. I mean, after all, 4yrs ago we could by fuel for a buck a gallon, couldn't we, lolol!!!

 

Restudy, come back when you graduate from econ 101, and the UAW thanks you for closing your eyes and giving them blind support without properly investigating exactly what the heck is going on in todays market.

[CSMJ]

Your ridiculous comeback needs little fact to dispute your obviously non financial mind.

 

1. If as you state the stock was being purchased in droves by brokerage houses, by the law of supply and demand, the stock price would be rising like GMs. It rises by who wants it, how bad they want it, and how much is available to purchase in the markets.

 

2.Look at the last 15yrs??? How about we look at the last 20 or 25!!!!

 

You made a good point.......except for one thing---------->my mother made 30 thousand bucks 15yrs ago, died 14yrs ago, wanna hire her???? The past means nothing if the facts you must compete under change. I mean, after all, 4yrs ago we could by fuel for a buck a gallon, couldn't we, lolol!!!

 

Restudy, come back when you graduate from econ 101, and the UAW thanks you for closing your eyes and giving them blind support without properly investigating exactly what the heck is going on in todays market.

Go to cnbc.com and look it up for yourself if you can read

 

Your ridiculous comeback needs little fact to dispute your obviously non financial mind.

 

1. If as you state the stock was being purchased in droves by brokerage houses, by the law of supply and demand, the stock price would be rising like GMs. It rises by who wants it, how bad they want it, and how much is available to purchase in the markets.

 

2.Look at the last 15yrs??? How about we look at the last 20 or 25!!!!

 

You made a good point.......except for one thing---------->my mother made 30 thousand bucks 15yrs ago, died 14yrs ago, wanna hire her???? The past means nothing if the facts you must compete under change. I mean, after all, 4yrs ago we could by fuel for a buck a gallon, couldn't we, lolol!!!

 

Restudy, come back when you graduate from econ 101, and the UAW thanks you for closing your eyes and giving them blind support without properly investigating exactly what the heck is going on in todays market.

Last time I checked we were paid "high" union wages in the 90's and they made all that money so the wages are not the issue here it is the design department

[Imawhosure]

Go to cnbc.com and look it up for yourself if you can read

Last time I checked we were paid "high" union wages in the 90's and they made all that money so the wages are not the issue here it is the design department

 

 

You are absolutely correct!!!! Unfortunately, the cash cow died with the price of fuel.

 

I can not dispute your logic of high wages in the 90s. The pendulum has swung the other way though, and trucks are no longer the answer; or so it seems.

 

While I tend to agree with you that Fords management has "screwed the pooch" on its offerings to consumers, that does not mean that if it hadn't we would still have 20 something percent of the market. Just from the premise of natural selection, the more offerings up against your products, the less you will sell.

 

The problem lies in that Ford MUST get profit from less sales as many other auto companys already do. Now we can insist they raise prices, but they already must PAY to have some of their products purchased now to keep their assembies open.

 

What would you do if you owned or managed this company? Forget uttering "come up with products people want to buy," as even if that happens, the sales will not sustain everyones piece of the pie since less sales, means that every vehicle sold will have to large a burden of "price tacked on to pay for bennies" to be competitive.

 

Also remember, as of this time we haven't taken a pay cut, just changed rules. Want the old rules?!?!?! Then take a pay cut! It is just.......that......simple, ooooorrrrrrrrrr, put the company out of business; which means we will all probably be working for less than we now enjoy at a new place of employment.

 

Do not get angry with me the messenger, or Ford the ones having to do it. If you want to get angry, look at those co-workers pulling into the lot with new, financed, foreign cars. They are the ones helping cut your throat, not me, and not Ford. Not to mention your/my neighbors who would rather pay FULL price for a Toyoty, then take our X-plan for one of our supposedly substandard vehicles. They are brainwashed by the media and Toyotys slick advertising, and as we all know------------>perception is better than truth. Toyoty has succeeded in convincing everyone, and their GREEN PRIUS has the liberal media falling over themselves to kiss......that.....a**.

 

I do NOT HATE FORD for what is happening. I hate Toyoty, Kia, Hyundai, etc, etc, for having the ability to undercut us because they have no retirees. Social security is like our retirement benefits......a Ponzi scheme. The government can raise taxes to pay S.S. or cut benefits. Ford can't cause they can't raise prices, and to many people who are employees don't understand WHY the cost is so high per unit to make them lose money to pay it.

 

If you now do understand, again look at the dumb somebitch who just drove a new foreign car into your lot, and explain it to them!!!!! It is bad enough when a neighbor or friend buys one, but when an employee keeps someone elses company working while neglecting their own and complains.............well I just don't know what to tell ya!

[sparks will fly]

You are absolutely correct!!!! Unfortunately, the cash cow died with the price of fuel.

 

I can not dispute your logic of high wages in the 90s. The pendulum has swung the other way though, and trucks are no longer the answer; or so it seems.

 

While I tend to agree with you that Fords management has "screwed the pooch" on its offerings to consumers, that does not mean that if it hadn't we would still have 20 something percent of the market. Just from the premise of natural selection, the more offerings up against your products, the less you will sell.

 

The problem lies in that Ford MUST get profit from less sales as many other auto companys already do. Now we can insist they raise prices, but they already must PAY to have some of their products purchased now to keep their assembies open.

 

What would you do if you owned or managed this company? Forget uttering "come up with products people want to buy," as even if that happens, the sales will not sustain everyones piece of the pie since less sales, means that every vehicle sold will have to large a burden of "price tacked on to pay for bennies" to be competitive.

 

Also remember, as of this time we haven't taken a pay cut, just changed rules. Want the old rules?!?!?! Then take a pay cut! It is just.......that......simple, ooooorrrrrrrrrr, put the company out of business; which means we will all probably be working for less than we now enjoy at a new place of employment.

 

Do not get angry with me the messenger, or Ford the ones having to do it. If you want to get angry, look at those co-workers pulling into the lot with new, financed, foreign cars. They are the ones helping cut your throat, not me, and not Ford. Not to mention your/my neighbors who would rather pay FULL price for a Toyoty, then take our X-plan for one of our supposedly substandard vehicles. They are brainwashed by the media and Toyotys slick advertising, and as we all know------------>perception is better than truth. Toyoty has succeeded in convincing everyone, and their GREEN PRIUS has the liberal media falling over themselves to kiss......that.....a**.

 

I do NOT HATE FORD for what is happening. I hate Toyoty, Kia, Hyundai, etc, etc, for having the ability to undercut us because they have no retirees. Social security is like our retirement benefits......a Ponzi scheme. The government can raise taxes to pay S.S. or cut benefits. Ford can't cause they can't raise prices, and to many people who are employees don't understand WHY the cost is so high per unit to make them lose money to pay it.

 

If you now do understand, again look at the dumb somebitch who just drove a new foreign car into your lot, and explain it to them!!!!! It is bad enough when a neighbor or friend buys one, but when an employee keeps someone elses company working while neglecting their own and complains.............well I just don't know what to tell ya!

 

Some of the bennis are supposed to have money put into a fund (pension) to make sure the money is there to pay our retirement, to bad they see that money and dribble on themselves. Unions and companies alike have had a problem with this history shows us that.

 

We did take a paycut, when last year they "opened" the contract over the health care. We did not get 3% on our checks to save them about the same amount of money they talk about spending in Mexico, HUH? That slap in the face is one of the reasons that I personally don't trust the "way forward" game that is being played.

[CSMJ]

You are absolutely correct!!!! Unfortunately, the cash cow died with the price of fuel.

 

I can not dispute your logic of high wages in the 90s. The pendulum has swung the other way though, and trucks are no longer the answer; or so it seems.

 

While I tend to agree with you that Fords management has "screwed the pooch" on its offerings to consumers, that does not mean that if it hadn't we would still have 20 something percent of the market. Just from the premise of natural selection, the more offerings up against your products, the less you will sell.

 

The problem lies in that Ford MUST get profit from less sales as many other auto companys already do. Now we can insist they raise prices, but they already must PAY to have some of their products purchased now to keep their assembies open.

 

What would you do if you owned or managed this company? Forget uttering "come up with products people want to buy," as even if that happens, the sales will not sustain everyones piece of the pie since less sales, means that every vehicle sold will have to large a burden of "price tacked on to pay for bennies" to be competitive.

 

Also remember, as of this time we haven't taken a pay cut, just changed rules. Want the old rules?!?!?! Then take a pay cut! It is just.......that......simple, ooooorrrrrrrrrr, put the company out of business; which means we will all probably be working for less than we now enjoy at a new place of employment.

 

Do not get angry with me the messenger, or Ford the ones having to do it. If you want to get angry, look at those co-workers pulling into the lot with new, financed, foreign cars. They are the ones helping cut your throat, not me, and not Ford. Not to mention your/my neighbors who would rather pay FULL price for a Toyoty, then take our X-plan for one of our supposedly substandard vehicles. They are brainwashed by the media and Toyotys slick advertising, and as we all know------------>perception is better than truth. Toyoty has succeeded in convincing everyone, and their GREEN PRIUS has the liberal media falling over themselves to kiss......that.....a**.

 

I do NOT HATE FORD for what is happening. I hate Toyoty, Kia, Hyundai, etc, etc, for having the ability to undercut us because they have no retirees. Social security is like our retirement benefits......a Ponzi scheme. The government can raise taxes to pay S.S. or cut benefits. Ford can't cause they can't raise prices, and to many people who are employees don't understand WHY the cost is so high per unit to make them lose money to pay it.

 

If you now do understand, again look at the dumb somebitch who just drove a new foreign car into your lot, and explain it to them!!!!! It is bad enough when a neighbor or friend buys one, but when an employee keeps someone elses company working while neglecting their own and complains.............well I just don't know what to tell ya!

Im not mad all I said was read cnbc and it says large investment firms are buying lots of ford stock..period that's all I said

The stock is low because the avg. investor is selling but according to cnbc the big boys are buying it cheap and they will sell it when it goes up substancialy.................They go on TV and the newspapers and say how bad ford is so the little investor will sell it, meanwhile they buy it.

Thats why they have million of $$ and the little guy doesn't.........