mikem12 Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 I found this just now. Seems we are still paying GM to produce cars. http://newsbusters.org/blogs/seton-motley/2012/07/17/media-fail-chevy-volt-makes-gm-no-money-costs-taxpayers-hundreds-thous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imawhosure Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 I don't know how accurate the article is, but I still wonder how if government motors has the feds backing along with having jettisoned everything it owed, how in the world do Ford employees think they can compete when Obama gets irritated with them for selling Americans cars they actually want! If Obama is re-elected, there may very well come a time when Ford employees despise the day that GM was saved by the feds and not forced to shrink because the bondholders got screwed. If that happens, thank the messiah, the one, and the person many autoworkers support. Hey, Ford did the right thing, and may still get the shaft. GM did the wrong thing, and they might end up laughing at you all the way to the bank. Only time, a host of other variables, and an election will allow the truth to be played out! One thing is for sure-------->if Obama is thrown overboard this November, so is GMs protection. They will then either compete with you Ford people, or will shrink as you expand. It is your company and your jobs, do as you wish! Just don't say that you didn't understand some of the ramifications that would happen if GM continues to be protected by Obamas choosing of winners, and losers in a marketplace that was designed for free market movement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark B. Morrow Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 I don't know how accurate the article is, but I still wonder how if government motors has the feds backing along with having jettisoned everything it owed, how in the world do Ford employees think they can compete when Obama gets irritated with them for selling Americans cars they actually want! Please show us where If Obama the President has criticised Ford's offerings in the market (or GM's or Chryslers) I recall that he was particularly impressed with the Shelby GT 500 at the Car Show. is re-elected, there may very well come a time when Ford employees despise the day that GM was saved by the feds and not forced to shrink because the bondholders got screwed. If that happens, thank the messiah, the one, and the person many autoworkers support. Hey, Ford did the right thing, and may still get the shaft. GM did the wrong thing, and they might end up laughing at you all the way to the bank. GM was forced to shrink. Have you not been paying attention? Mulally didn't support the bailout of GM and Chrysler out of some sense of altruism or love for his competition. he did it because he recognized that if they went under, they would take the suppliers with them and Ford would not survive. Only time, a host of other variables, and an election will allow the truth to be played out! One thing is for sure-------->if Obama is thrown overboard this November, so is GMs protection. They will then either compete with you Ford people, or will shrink as you expand. If you think a President Romney will undo the GM and Chrysler deals you are delusional. Even romney isn't stupid enough to try to put the American car industry at risk along with the millions of jobs attached to the industry. It is your company and your jobs, do as you wish! Just don't say that you didn't understand some of the ramifications that would happen if GM continues to be protected by Obamas choosing of winners, and losers in a marketplace that was designed for free market movement. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grbeck Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 (edited) The Volt isn't going to fail because of right-wing bloggers. The real trouble is that it is rapidly becoming a replay of the entire Saturn saga. It's a very expensive project started by a prior leader who is now discredited because of GM's disastrous financial performance during his tenure. (Saturn was started by Roger Smith; for the Volt, substitute "Bob Lutz" and "Rick Wagoner" for Roger Smith.) GM's new leadership team is stuck with an expensive project that has produced a vehicle that is basically impossible to sell at a profit. (Saturn, at best, turned a profit for one year during its existence.) Certain critics love the vehicle for a variety of reasons, but warm-and-fuzzy stories in the media don't help the bottom line, or help sell the profitable vehicles that pay the bills. (Buyers loved the Saturn buying experience, and the Saturn Homecoming events attracted a great deal of favorable attention. Meanwhile, the other divisions saw their line-ups become less competitive as money spent on Saturn meant less money to refurbish their vehicles. Chevrolet was forced to continue with a minimally changed Cavalier through the 1995 model year, and a stale line-up hastened Oldsmobile's demise. Even worse, most Saturn buyers were unaware that it was part of GM, so, when it was time to "trade up" from a Saturn sedan, they weren't going to visit their local Oldsmobile or Buick dealers. Just as Ford spent a fair amount of the 1950s grooming customers for Pontiac/Oldsmobile/Buick, Saturn spent most of its life grooming customers for Toyota/Lexus, Honda/Acura and VW.) I don't get the impression that GM leadership is truly committed to the Volt. The advertising support has been very uneven. The entire saga is showing the real problem with the rushed, pre-packaged "bankruptcy" and bailout process. Unlike Ford, GM has not gone through a truly wrenching restructuring. The government not only bailed out GM (and the UAW), but it virtually ensured that the same problematic corporate and union culture that led the company to bankruptcy would remain in place. I look for GM to be broken up or sold by the end of this decade. The new vehicles don't impress me all that much. They may be an improvement over their replacements, but that isn't enough in today's brutal market. The Volt, in the long run, will just be a sideshow in this drama. Edited July 18, 2012 by grbeck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 I look for GM to be broken up or sold by the end of this decade. How do you "break up" a company that has divisions that are so tightly entwined? It would be like "breaking up" Ford and Lincoln. And there's nobody on the planet who could afford to buy them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grbeck Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 How do you "break up" a company that has divisions that are so tightly entwined? It would be like "breaking up" Ford and Lincoln. And there's nobody on the planet who could afford to buy them. GM doesn't just consist of its North American operations...Holden, Opel/Vauxhall and GM's Chinese operations could all be sold and operated separately for a time, depending on how the deal is structured. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 GM doesn't just consist of its North American operations...Holden, Opel/Vauxhall and GM's Chinese operations could all be sold and operated separately for a time, depending on how the deal is structured. Much of Opel/Vauxhall's lineup is now based on global GM architectures. Holden's non-global GM lineup isn't nearly large enough to be a viable stand alone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bored of Pisteon Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 As I've stated in the past; I'll never buy another GM vehicle ever again. And what really perplexes me is that their 20 and 25 year old+ rusted out junk is overpriced on the used car market... The prices people are asking for that junk is ridiculous, people in Michigan think it's gold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grbeck Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 Much of Opel/Vauxhall's lineup is now based on global GM architectures. Holden's non-global GM lineup isn't nearly large enough to be a viable stand alone. They could still be sold and operated by the new owner, depending on how the deal is structured. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 (edited) They could still be sold and operated by the new owner, depending on how the deal is structured. And who's going to bother trying to incorporate that into their existing production structure? Take a look at how Saab fared after being "spun off" or what happened to Hummer when GM attempted it to get a better picture. GM either floats as a whole or sinks as one. Edited July 18, 2012 by NickF1011 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bored of Pisteon Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 The "Volt" sure seems to be flopping lately...how many battery fires are we up to now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grbeck Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 And who's going to bother trying to incorporate that into their existing production structure? Take a look at how Saab fared after being "spun off" or what happened to Hummer when GM attempted it to get a better picture. GM either floats as a whole or sinks as one. Saab and HUMMER made vehicles aimed at niche markets (plus, Saab was basically dead when GM bought it - GM gave it a life extension it really didn't deserve). They really aren't comparable to Opel/Vauxhall, the Chinese operations or even Holden. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 (edited) Saab and HUMMER made vehicles aimed at niche markets (plus, Saab was basically dead when GM bought it - GM gave it a life extension it really didn't deserve). They really aren't comparable to Opel/Vauxhall, the Chinese operations or even Holden. Take out the powertrains and platforms that are shared with the rest of GM and Opel/Vauxhall and Holden are about as niche as Saab and Hummer were. They really have very little to offer another company on their own. Edited July 18, 2012 by NickF1011 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imawhosure Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 1. So far, each volt has cost the taxpayers over 250,000 bucks......as of November anyway. The taxpayer still owes something like 500 million shares of GM, and to break even according to the financial rags, the share price has to be over 40 somewhere if the governement wants to sell it. OK LIBERAL GENIUSES, nearly everyone is aware that the Obama administration picks WINNERS, thus making losers. (ever hear of Solyndra? Or how about the coal industry? These are 2 perfect examples) So, if you are going to tell me if Obama is re-elected, and his grand plans have his administration still holding 500 million shares of GOVERNMENT MOTORS, and most EVERY ECONOMIST INCLUDING LIBERAL ones are predicting sloooooow growth.....unless of course Obama gets his way with his tax hike, then it is recession.........are you guys actually going to try and convince all of THESE NICE FORD WORKERS that Obama is going to let GM get in trouble again, or rather start putting pressure on Ford, Toyota, etc, lololol. You guys certainly don't think much do ya......or maybe you do, just don't want the nice people here to consider after Obamas record on what he does, what he would probably do! 2. Gm was forced to shrink, but not as much as it should have by any financial rags standards. It is being propped up by the government, as it was allowed by the OBAMA administartion to take its losses last year after bankruptcy, and put it against its profits which is considered ILLEGAL. This is how GM showed such a huge profit. Now, if Obama will allow GM to do that, tell us all again how he doesn't pick winners and losers, and if the poop hits the fan, GM won't be protected while pressure put on Ford and the others! 3. I do NOT think a President Romney will undo the saving of GM and Chrysler. I don't know how you ever got that idea, lol. You sound like Obama telling made up stories on Romney, but that is no surprise either, lol! I am saying that a President Romney would not favor GM if the economy again heads South because he can't get ahold of it before Obama ruins it again. We already heard from helicopter Ben; didn't we-) Seems that the rosy outlook, the hope and change, got up and went according to him, lol! You need to calm down there my liberal, lawyer, friend. Just because it is all heading South for the one is no need to sell your solar panel stocks. Who knows, maybe the dems will hold on to the senate. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, Whosure made a funny! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark B. Morrow Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 They could still be sold and operated by the new owner, depending on how the deal is structured. See SAAB. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grbeck Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 (edited) See SAAB. Saab was a niche company that was at death's door when GM bought it. It's in no way comparable to Opel/Vauxhall, GM's North American operations or GM's Chinese operations. Edited July 18, 2012 by grbeck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 Saab was a niche company that was at death's door when GM bought it. It's in no way comparable to Opel/Vauxhall, GM's North American operations or GM's Chinese operations. Like I said before, subtract all of the shared architectures and shared powertrains that parent company GM will want to keep for itself from Opel/Vauxhall and Holden and what are you really left with? A couple microcars, vans, and what? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grbeck Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 (edited) Like I said before, subtract all of the shared architectures and shared powertrains that parent company GM will want to keep for itself from Opel/Vauxhall and Holden and what are you really left with? A couple microcars, vans, and what? Any company buying one of those units will also buy the factories, which, in turn, means that it is buying access to the vehicles (and drivetrains) produced by those factories. It will be impossible for GM to "subtract" the shared architectures and powertrains from the deal. Any buyer of Opel/Vauxhall is going to have the right to produce the European equivalent of the Buick Regal, for example. GM could certainly try to remove that from the deal, in which case, it will not have a sale, which means that its European operations (which, by virtually any financial standard, should be liquidated) will continue to drag down the entire company. Edited July 18, 2012 by grbeck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 (edited) Any company buying one of those units will also buy the factories, which, in turn, means that it is buying access to the vehicles (and drivetrains) produced by those factories. It will be impossible for GM to "subtract" the shared architectures and powertrains from the deal. Any buyer of Opel/Vauxhall is going to have the right to produce the European equivalent of the Buick Regal, for example. GM could certainly try to remove that from the deal, in which case, it will not have a sale, which means that its European operations (which, by virtually any financial standard, should be liquidated) will continue to drag down the entire company. They'll only have that right if GM says they have that right in the sales agreement. Having the factory doesn't automatically mean you have the rights to produce what the factory once made. Edited July 19, 2012 by NickF1011 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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