Ford Waits on Tiny Car For US

[630land]

"Did I mention the 2006 focus is selling for $10,995 after $3000 rebate. the 2007 focus already has a $2500 rebate."

 

The stripped ZX3's w/o air conditioning maybe, but most Foci are the SE or SES with prices in paper of around 14-15K.

 

Corollas are selling for low prices too. If Ford slaps a higher price, all Toyota has to say is 'ours is cheaper and we are Toyota'. Focus has to win bacl cutomers with value, not fake 'poshness' and supposed "Euro-ness".

 

"Thru the First 7 months of 2006 Chevy sold 35,078 aveos, down from 41,795." whippeee!

 

Umm, they are built in Korea, with cheap cheap cheap parts and labor. Euro anything is $$$ $$$ $$$$$$ to pay for their unions and socialism.

 

Oh, and the Aveo is c-r-a-p.

[Biker16]

Most of the shortcomings on the Focus option list vs. the Civic (which still doesn't have leather, traction control, and a winter package) boil down to the Focus' antiquity (curtain airbags, head restraints, EBD) or its use of non-standard parts (gauge cluster, HVAC, steering wheel).

 

I expect the 2008 Focus will meet most of the Civic's standard & optional equipment, while offering EATC, leather, RSC, and iPod integration. Ford may make traction control standard as well.

 

how do you know what the 2008 focus will have? really, all we have seen are pictures. lets think about it, you wont share the Ford steerign wheel because the Focus's has the smallest wheel in N.A., you wount change the ICluster because, all new Ford have a digital bus that is not compatable with the Focus's + the Focus would require a smaller one thean the larger Fusion or 500. EATC or automatic HVAC, would require a new HVAC system for the Focus, the c170 euro Focus had one but it was very expensive because it was servo motors actuating thye mechanical HVAC system. alot of cables and wires.

 

This is your most cost effective solution Use parts from C1. The myth is that are soo expensive the fact was they are designed to deliver premium features at the lowest cost. the issue is that digital archtechture of newer cars make it cheaper to add the features listed above. on the 2008 you may see a paralell digital and analog electrical system, a waste of money and damn heavy.

 

BTW how are we paying for all this newness on a dated platfrom? you are already doing a facelift, and adding a new bodystyle, how much do they have left to add the creature comforts, without crossing the billion dollar mark????? why are we waiting for ford to do what honda did last fall?

 

The civic already has " leather, and a winter package" in canada acura CSX

 

I doubt Ford could make a profit on a Fiesta selling in the 40k range, volume wise, at $14k, and I doubt that a Fiesta equipped similarly to an Aveo could sustain such a price (c. $1500 over the average Aveo). Even at $14k I would be willing to bet that the ASP in Europe is higher (excluding VAT), and Ford would have to pay the hundreds of dollars in extra shipping costs to get the EU Fiesta here.

You wouldn't. You'd just pay closer to MSRP. I mean Ford's giving that much away anyway, they might as well throw in content, instead of giving cash to the customer.

 

Viz. the Ford Expedition, which has way more standard equipment than the outgoing model, and a $4k lower MSRP.

 

Do you think the Fit makes honda money? no

 

they only have the fit here because thye needed to move the Civic upmarket to increase its profitabilty, and for the civic to afford its own redesign. the next generation fit will make a profit this one won't.

 

 

 

"Did I mention the 2006 focus is selling for $10,995 after $3000 rebate. the 2007 focus already has a $2500 rebate."

 

The stripped ZX3's w/o air conditioning maybe, but most Foci are the SE or SES with prices in paper of around 14-15K.

 

Corollas are selling for low prices too. If Ford slaps a higher price, all Toyota has to say is 'ours is cheaper and we are Toyota'. Focus has to win bacl cutomers with value, not fake 'poshness' and supposed "Euro-ness".

 

"Thru the First 7 months of 2006 Chevy sold 35,078 aveos, down from 41,795." whippeee!

 

Umm, they are built in Korea, with cheap cheap cheap parts and labor. Euro anything is $$$ $$$ $$$$$$ to pay for their unions and socialism.

 

Oh, and the Aveo is c-r-a-p.

 

The Aveo is all new for 2007. how about the Focus?

 

"Focus has to win bacl cutomers with value" I agree that does not mean being the cheapest, that means features and performace at a Fair price, we don't want to be walmart.

[630land]

The "all new" 07 Aveo is still Deawooo crap. The 07 Focus is still a better value. Just because something can be called 'newer' doesn't mean better. The 2008 Focus will be 'newer'. And FoMoCo has MZ3 and S40's for sale, too.

 

 

And what's with still saying "...the world is in Focus" in sig? Get an Aveo and go to "AveoJet.com" and preach its 'newness'.

 

I used to have fun countering BORG, now it's another 'B' person that is fun to contrdict. ;-)

[RichardJensen]

how do you know what the 2008 focus will have? really, all we have seen are pictures. lets think about it, you wont share the Ford steerign wheel because the Focus's has the smallest wheel in N.A., you wount change the ICluster because, all new Ford have a digital bus that is not compatable with the Focus's + the Focus would require a smaller one thean the larger Fusion or 500. EATC or automatic HVAC, would require a new HVAC system for the Focus, the c170 euro Focus had one but it was very expensive because it was servo motors actuating thye mechanical HVAC system. alot of cables and wires.

 

This is your most cost effective solution Use parts from C1. The myth is that are soo expensive the fact was they are designed to deliver premium features at the lowest cost. the issue is that digital archtechture of newer cars make it cheaper to add the features listed above. on the 2008 you may see a paralell digital and analog electrical system, a waste of money and damn heavy.

 

BTW how are we paying for all this newness on a dated platfrom? you are already doing a facelift, and adding a new bodystyle, how much do they have left to add the creature comforts, without crossing the billion dollar mark????? why are we waiting for ford to do what honda did last fall?

 

The civic already has " leather, and a winter package" in canada acura CSX

Do you think the Fit makes honda money? no

 

they only have the fit here because thye needed to move the Civic upmarket to increase its profitabilty, and for the civic to afford its own redesign. the next generation fit will make a profit this one won't.

The Aveo is all new for 2007. how about the Focus?

Look, the Ranger and Taurus both got the Ford standard IP last year (with the Taurus scheduled for extinction in about two months). I would be extremely suprised if overwhelming cost considerations prevent Ford from installing it in the Focus. Ditto EATC. Ford has parts-bin EATC units that they have not put in the Focus for two reasons: non-standard dash layout, and a belief that such niceties are wasted on the C segment buyer. We may get C2 underpinnings for the next gen. Focus, but you can be assured that almost every scrap of wiring in the next gen. Focus will be NA parts-bin, not Euro Focus stuff manufactured or shipped here. Door pulls and locks will be Ford NA standard, power seats will be Ford NA standard, heated seats will be Ford NA standard. Ford NA standard trunk release solenoids, and on and on the list goes. Shrink the needles on the Ford IP, and shrink the rim of the Ford steering wheel, and you accomodate the Focus nicely, without compromising the cost savings involved in wiring the center of the steering wheel pretty much the same as it is wired on hundreds of thousands of other steering wheels, and wiring the IP pretty much the same as it is wired on hundreds of thousands of other IPs.

 

Why do I know this is coming on the 2008 Focus? Because every new Ford that has come out since 2005 MY has featured increased parts rationalization. The idea that somehow the Focus will be exempt from such rationalization seems to be the less likely conclusion.

 

BTW, nice try saying that if I move to Canada, I can get a "Civic" with Focus style goodies. Too bad I'm not willing to move to Canada to avail myself of this unique opportunity.

 

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As to cost, when you consider that the sole cost of incorporating these 'goodies' revolves around remolding the dashboard and door panels, I don't see that we're getting into stratospheric costs. Ford will move to pretty much the same dashboard wiring buses that they use on the existing sedans, and will incur no dramatic extra costs because they will be plugging existing PCM software and existing wiring harnesses into existing dashboard wiring that will connect to an existing IP, HVAC, etc. The only thing that is an issue is getting the stuff to fit. Hardly a life-or-death matter, or one of extreme cost. Ford will probably save enough in eliminating non-standard componentry underhood on the Focus, to cover the cost of engineering the standard stuff to fit.

 

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The Focus came out in 2000, the new Civic came out in 2006, why did it take Honda six years to come out with a vehicle better than the Focus?

 

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I'd like to see proof Honda is losing money on the Fit.

 

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The C2 Focus, as built and sold in NA will have far more NA componentry in it, than the current Focus. This trend will begin with the 2008 overhaul, and will continue. No more orphaned HVAC controls, stereos, IPs, locks, door handles, wiring, etc. Ford may use a global design for C2 brakes, but powerpack and PCM will be NA spec, including NA wiring harnesses for the rest of the car (IP, fuel pump, HVAC, ABS, airbag, RSC sensors, etc.)

Edited August 12, 2006 by RichardJensen

[Biker16]

Look, the Ranger and Taurus both got the Ford standard IP last year (with the Taurus scheduled for extinction in about two months). I would be extremely suprised if overwhelming cost considerations prevent Ford from installing it in the Focus. Ditto EATC. Ford has parts-bin EATC units that they have not put in the Focus for two reasons: non-standard dash layout, and a belief that such niceties are wasted on the C segment buyer. We may get C2 underpinnings for the next gen. Focus, but you can be assured that almost every scrap of wiring in the next gen. Focus will be NA parts-bin, not Euro Focus stuff manufactured or shipped here. Door pulls and locks will be Ford NA standard, power seats will be Ford NA standard, heated seats will be Ford NA standard. Ford NA standard trunk release solenoids, and on and on the list goes. Shrink the needles on the Ford IP, and shrink the rim of the Ford steering wheel, and you accomodate the Focus nicely, without compromising the cost savings involved in wiring the center of the steering wheel pretty much the same as it is wired on hundreds of thousands of other steering wheels, and wiring the IP pretty much the same as it is wired on hundreds of thousands of other IPs.

 

Richard your a wise man, but we do not listen to each other.

 

When i say that the Focus's HVAC system is not capable of fitting the Standrad Ford EATC system I mean it. it is non standard and due to the sixze of the car it is very compact and the ducting is wierd. . the easiest fit for the c170 focus is the c1 focus's HVAC.

 

Did you know that CANbus, developed by Boach in the early 90s for luxury applications. the problem it solves was that conventional 12v electrical systems require a direct conection between the switch and the operation. http://www.canbus.us/

 

its a digital node based network, you have a module in the doors and 2-3 wires to connect the modules together, instead of the 50 wires in the drivers door of the Focus right now. the HVAC systems in cars like the Fusion, the hvac system is integrtated with the CAN bus network, where the buttons of the system relays thought the cars ECU and then to the HVAC system, for a EATC system you replace the switches with a module. I am not saying what you propose is imposible, but it would require and all new HVAC sytem specifically for the C170 Focus, or a redesign of the firewall and dash crossmember to fit the off the shelf pieces from ford's bin. the IC for the taurus is too large for the Focus, so is the IC from the fusion. the Fcous was designed in 1998, like the CV the cost to upgrade the focus's swtich gear is a more complex than replacing switches. remember the CV still has the same switches form 1993.

 

Why do I know this is coming on the 2008 Focus? Because every new Ford that has come out since 2005 MY has featured increased parts rationalization. The idea that somehow the Focus will be exempt from such rationalization seems to be the less likely conclusion.

 

So your saying you really don't know. Your rationalization sounds too expensive for a reskin.

 

BTW, nice try saying that if I move to Canada, I can get a "Civic" with Focus style goodies. Too bad I'm not willing to move to Canada to avail myself of this unique opportunity.

 

I am so soory the civic lacks heater to warm your ass in the winter and burn your ass in summer.

 

--------

As to cost, when you consider that the sole cost of incorporating these 'goodies' revolves around remolding the dashboard and door panels, I don't see that we're getting into stratospheric costs. Ford will move to pretty much the same dashboard wiring buses that they use on the existing sedans, and will incur no dramatic extra costs because they will be plugging existing PCM software and existing wiring harnesses into existing dashboard wiring that will connect to an existing IP, HVAC, etc. The only thing that is an issue is getting the stuff to fit. Hardly a life-or-death matter, or one of extreme cost. Ford will probably save enough in eliminating non-standard componentry underhood on the Focus, to cover the cost of engineering the standard stuff to fit.

 

see above.

 

I'd like to see proof Honda is losing money on the Fit.

 

I don't but I know that the Fit has a base price of 14k, and sells for more than the Fiesta in europe. plus it is due to be replaced next fall.

 

The C2 Focus, as built and sold in NA will have far more NA componentry in it, than the current Focus. This trend will begin with the 2008 overhaul, and will continue. No more orphaned HVAC controls, stereos, IPs, locks, door handles, wiring, etc. Ford may use a global design for C2 brakes, but powerpack and PCM will be NA spec, including NA wiring harnesses for the rest of the car (IP, fuel pump, HVAC, ABS, airbag, RSC sensors, etc.)

 

Richard the goal is global archtechtures, not NA arhctechtures and ROTW archtechtures.

 

http://media.ford.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=23641

http://media.ford.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=22116

 

with FORD'S FAMILY OF STRATEGIC SUPPLIERS

We now have global suppliers with global reach and economies of scale, we would bid for our buuisness on a global scales not a regional, we leave it up to the suppier where to locate thier plants, not ford.

 

With FORD'S FAMILY OF STRATEGIC SUPPLIERS, why would we need to have different bag of parts for na and another for everywhere else? NOw we would be easy and cost effective to transfer technologies for europe to Na, and back because our supplier have a presence everywhere Ford is. This is what C2 will use the old model gone and the new model is here, we can move products from continent to continent without seeding a new suppier base.

Edited August 12, 2006 by Biker16

[RichardJensen]

This is what it boils down to: You think that Ford is only changing the front and rear clips on the '08 Fusion. I find this conclusion incredibly difficult to support.

 

You, and others, point to an alleged long history of Ford neglecting product, and so on and so forth.

 

I am quite fond of looking for patterns in just about anything. Popcorn texture on the ceiling. Anything.

 

I fail to see a pattern in Ford's past actions that continues to today.

 

Vehicles like the Expedition and Explorer are receiving major updates less than 5 years after launch, a rarity in their segments. The F150 is slated for a major update only five years after launch, a first in its segment, Ford is spending money on interior materials and fit and finish. They are in the middle of a dramatic global platform rationalization.

 

Before their first restructuring, Ford had a well-deserved reputation for sitting on product, for failing to keep it current, basically, being the worst of the Big Three at launch and abandon. The pre-2006 MY list of examples is extensive, and instructive. Ford also had no architectures to speak of, and no habit of parts sharing to mention. The 2003 Expedition and F150 are classic examples of this.

 

Subsequent to the launch of the '04 Freestar (a lameduck model, but one where Ford first began moving to a standard set of interior electrics, along with things like door hardware), we continue to have some products that are basically unaltered (Ranger, CV, E-Series). However, every update since then, Focus and Escape excepted, has involved major improvements to the interior, and a move to increase parts sharing among Ford brands.

 

From the 2004 MY on, we have seen increasingly better interior work from Ford, and increasingly greater parts sharing. It would seem unbelievable to me that Ford would substantially update two vehicles (the Escape and Focus) which share IP, door hardware and switchgear, and which both have non-standard HVAC systems, and not move both model families (which account for over 500k units of Ford's volume in the U.S.) to Ford's parts-bin controls.

 

I also stand corrected, in that Ford's NA IP is their global IP, appearing--so it seems--first on the 2000 Mondeo. It also appears that Ford's moving to a global set of misc. electrical bits, also they seem to be standardizing door latch and locking mechanisms, while the NA and EU keep separate audio units and HVAC systems. I would expect this to continue for some unstated, but likely rational, reason. I would also imagine that Ford's global safety systems will be simplified as time goes by (ABS and SRS sensors)

[Biker16]

richard we will have to wait until january.

[RichardJensen]

richard we will have to wait until january.

What? Pfff. We can argue without any evidence at all, in fact, it's easier.

[Biker16]

What? Pfff. We can argue without any evidence at all, in fact, it's easier.

 

:cheerleader:

[igor]

in case you missed this ... http://www.blueovalforums.com/forums/index...ic=5494&hl=

 

Igor

[Biker16]

Why don't sell a rebadged Yaris?

 

Or a Rebadged Fit?

 

as a Ford product until we can make our own.

[RichardJensen]

Why don't sell a rebadged Yaris?

 

Or a Rebadged Fit?

 

as a Ford product until we can make our own.

Are you trying to start another beef????? Since it seeeeems that Ford miiiight have maaaaybe spent a few bucks bringing the Focus up to snuff?

 

Know what? This is not a bad idea. I doubt that anyone at Toyota or Honda would consider this a good idea, but hey, Honda sold Rodeos and Troopers for a few years until they got the whole Pilot out of a Minivan thing worked out. It's not like Honda and Toyota need Ford's larger distribution network to move product (which Isuzu did with Honda).

Edited August 14, 2006 by RichardJensen

[Biker16]

Are you trying to start another beef????? Since it seeeeems that Ford miiiight have maaaaybe spent a few bucks bringing the Focus up to snuff?

 

Know what? This is not a bad idea. I doubt that anyone at Toyota or Honda would consider this a good idea, but hey, Honda sold Rodeos and Troopers for a few years until they got the whole Pilot out of a Minivan thing worked out. It's not like Honda and Toyota need Ford's larger distribution network to move product (which Isuzu did with Honda).

 

We could also have ford Build crystler b-cars in mexico.

[Biker16]

the average transaction price for compact cars is: $17,318

 

The Caliber's average transaction price was $17,829, slightly above the average for all cars in the compact segment - $17,318.