Ford Waits on Tiny Car For US

[ANTAUS]

LINK-Detroit News

[jaydez]

I agree with Fields that they shouldnt do it until they can do it right.

 

They just need to do it right quickly...

 

If they bring a cheap econobox to the market quickly that only competes on price then the young people (like me) buying them will realize its a big POS and never return to the brand when they are ready to step up.

[Michael Reynolds]

I agree with Fields that they shouldnt do it until they can do it right.

 

They just need to do it right quickly...

 

If they bring a cheap econobox to the market quickly that only competes on price then the young people (like me) buying them will realize its a big POS and never return to the brand when they are ready to step up.

 

My sentiments exactly. Looking back at Ford's previous failed attempts to enter that market, and taking into account Chevy's and Toyota's so-so showings, Ford needs to ensure that whatever is launched is done so addressing the needs and concerns that the B Car segment demands.

[bri719]

I agree with Fields that they shouldnt do it until they can do it right.

 

They just need to do it right quickly...

 

If they bring a cheap econobox to the market quickly that only competes on price then the young people (like me) buying them will realize its a big POS and never return to the brand when they are ready to step up.

 

 

agreed, agreed, agreed. they can NOT let this happen. if they come up with one for '09 and it shows up in dealerships in early '08 that is MUCH MUCH preferable than the alternative. I honestly don't think they can bring anything decent sooner than that so I won't even hope for it

[ANTAUS]

We've witnessed what happens when Ford introduces a half assed idea.... The Focus americanized...The 500/FS with yestur-year engines. So in this case, maybe waiting might not be an idea. I think we all can agree that we need it NOW, but considering the past...maybe waiting a little might not be a bad thing.

[waymondospiff]

I think the fundamental difference is today our American B-car segment is "growing." In the 1980s you had to slide below fairly low-dollar compacts already on the market, the Escort, Shadow, & Corolla. That made the cars produced, LeMans, Festiva, & Tercel, pretty slow, uncomfortable, & stripped. But cheap! Today, the B-segment is growing in the US again because our "C-Class" cars, Focus, Corolla, & Cobalt, are growing into larger and more luxurious vehicles. The 2007 Versa is larger than a 80s Sentra, and the 2007 Sentra is larger than a 80s Stanza.

 

This shift, I believe, both enables and demands that the new B-segmenters offer American-style power & room. The Honda Fit, Scions, & Nissan Versa are setting new standards in the B-segment. Simply slapping a Ford badge on a UK market Fiesta probably wouldn't work. It'd probably be too slow, uncomfortable, and noisy.

 

But it's unfortunate that Ford is missing this opportunity because of a lack of product. Honda, Toyota, Nissan & GM were ready to go with foreign-market adaptations. Now, they look like geniuses in the eyes of Wall Street "analysts." Well, except GM, of course.

 

But then in a way, with the current Focus, Ford does have an entry, they're just discounting their C-segment car to price into the B-segment. And still people like the Fit better.

 

I do think Ford could import a low number, say 15-20,000 Ka's into the US, simply for the PR benefit. Preferably the SportKa. Maybe supercharged. Does it even come close to meeting US safety & emission standards? They could even use this ad, already made:

 

Scott

[Roadrunner]

In this one, the Ka kills a cat:

[Biker16]

In a b-car market growing this fast it is less important to have the "perfect product" than than it is to have a good product.

[630land]

I do know if they suddenly shipped Brazilian made whatever they are called Ford B cars, they would get trashed by the Car Rags for being 'dated', 'cheap', and what not. Consumer Reports would have a field day too

[Edstock]

I wonder what the CVT that's being discontinued would do for the 2.0 2dr Focus mileage compared to the current transmissions? If there's a significant improvement, it probably wouldn't be hard to do.

[Biker16]

I do know if they suddenly shipped Brazilian made whatever they are called Ford B cars, they would get trashed by the Car Rags for being 'dated', 'cheap', and what not. Consumer Reports would have a field day too

Why are so concerned about what they think? No one said anyting about the 4 year old jazz being sold by honda.

I wonder what the CVT that's being discontinued would do for the 2.0 2dr Focus mileage compared to the current transmissions? If there's a significant improvement, it probably wouldn't be hard to do.

 

 

I have been wondering out loud what ATX is going to use in thier next B and C-cars? The CVT would be a great fit for the Focus but the Development cost to make it work with C170, may be too high. A: you would Need a electronic throttle, to actually make the CVT work better.

 

I am a big fan of the CVT and since the plant where its made is closing, I don't know what they will do for thier small cars other than the FN 4spd used today.

 

BTW the smallest ford CVT is now used in the C1 focus.

[Edgey]

Oh it's so frustrating to see how inept Ford's initial plans were to begin with. This is going to take a very long time to put together. Ford is starting from scratch and they aren't known for their brisk development pace.

[RichardJensen]

Why are so concerned about what they think? No one said anyting about the 4 year old jazz being sold by honda.

The media's double standard is news to you? The free-pass Toyota's gas guzzlers get has escaped your notice?

 

Ford couldn't take a stripped down EcoSport, call it the Bronco and sell it here. Nobody would be happy.

 

If Ford didn't hold itself to a higher standard on its B cars, the press and public sure would.

 

----------------------

 

One other note: Ford's recent solid showing in the JD Power survey was no fluke. As Padilla's "Ford Production System" gets rolled out across the NA's new product lineup, you will see dramatically improved JD Power IQS and VDS scores.

 

We are beginning to see the fruits of the first restructuring. Dramatically improved QC. It would've been nice to see Ford address product planning and quality control issues at the same time back in 2002-2004, however, it didn't happen. But that doesn't mean Ford sat on its hands. Led by Padilla, Ford got suddenly serious about quality, and about installing quality control procedures at every plant that got a new Ford product.

[630land]

Why should I care about the rags? Because to average buyers Consumer Reports, Edmunds, and all is the "Bible". Trashy reviews and quality, bye bye a generation of buyers again.

 

How 'fast' can a Brazilian Fiesta be 'federalized' and fitted with US spec stuff, and shipped here? Like 1-2 years? And how well are they made, what is the currancy rate?

 

I love this one:

 

"tis less important to have the "perfect product" than than it is to have a good product. "

 

And since when is 'good enough" acceptable? Isn't that what got Detroit in deep trouble? Isn't that the type of decision that got the C170 to carry over? [that one hates so much] What is wrong with geting something better than good?????

Edited August 11, 2006 by 630land

[Biker16]

Why should I care about the rags? Because to average buyers Consumer Reports, Edmunds, and all is the "Bible". Trashy reviews and quality, bye bye a generation of buyers again.

 

How 'fast' can a Brazilian Fiesta be 'federalized' and fitted with US spec stuff, and shipped here? Like 1-2 years? And how well are they made, what is the currancy rate?

 

I love this one:

 

"tis less important to have the "perfect product" than than it is to have a good product. "

 

And since when is 'good enough" acceptable? Isn't that what got Detroit in deep trouble? Isn't that the type of decision that got the C170 to carry over? [that one hates so much] What is wrong with geting something better than good?????

 

in the exposive B-car market where we are seeing it go form about 120,000 unit per year to 600,000 per year having a very good product like the 3 year old fiesta would do fine. as opposed to the old to everyone 8 year old C170. As the competition was adding features Ford was removing features from the focus. the market for small cars is growing soo fast that even the c170 focus may increase sales, because there are epople that will only buy fords, until they dump the hatches of course.

 

The argument is having the best product today, as opposed to the best product 4 years from now and nothing today.

 

Like I said before if we are going to wait soo long, the product had better be the best thing since sliced bread. we are not going to be happy with another aspire.

 

this is my wish, ford would bring the euro-spec Focus and Fiesta to an auto show in the US so you can actually see touch and feel how good the products are, like I have.

[mkoesel]

I'm having trouble believing the Fiesta would be worse in this market than the Aveo hatchback. Now, to be honest, I don't know how good or bad that is, but the car seems to get by at least without getting completely lambasted. And this, even though it really is not a great car. Neither are the Versa or Jazz for that matter. Anyway, I suspect GM is making money on it.

 

IMHO, Fiesta would be no worse than the Kia Rio hatch, which looks like a pretty good entry to me. I appreciate Ford's long term strategy but I do believe that sitting out of this market for such a long period of time is a bit of a risk.

[156n3rd]

People are gun-shy of Ford's ability to get this right. With international product development, they should be able to get this done quickly so they can realize a share of sales profits. It must be done in a timely fashion, but there are many sources within the company that can put a car on the road that would be on target. Let's get on with it.

[RichardJensen]

in the exposive B-car market where we are seeing it go form about 120,000 unit per year to 600,000 per year having a very good product like the 3 year old fiesta would do fine. as opposed to the old to everyone 8 year old C170. As the competition was adding features Ford was removing features from the focus. the market for small cars is growing soo fast that even the c170 focus may increase sales, because there are epople that will only buy fords, until they dump the hatches of course.

 

The argument is having the best product today, as opposed to the best product 4 years from now and nothing today.

 

Like I said before if we are going to wait soo long, the product had better be the best thing since sliced bread. we are not going to be happy with another aspire.

 

this is my wish, ford would bring the euro-spec Focus and Fiesta to an auto show in the US so you can actually see touch and feel how good the products are, like I have.

First of all, I don't know that you can get many C class cars with leather, traction control AND heated seats. Which are all still available on the Focus--bellyache about the missing sport packages all you want, more people want these features.

 

Secondly, Ford's rumored plan was a stripped down EcoSport, NOT a Fiesta. A stripped down Brazilian car, sold as a sub Focus entry? That has BAD IDEA written all over it.

 

As far as crying over a missing Fiesta right now, Ford can't make the Fiesta as cheaply as Chevy can the Aveo, ergo, any comparison between the two is based on specious logic. The Fiesta must needs sell for more than the Aveo, which it cannot in current form.

[Surgen]

How 'fast' can a Brazilian Fiesta be 'federalized' and fitted with US spec stuff, and shipped here? Like 1-2 years? And how well are they made, what is the currancy rate?

 

I love this one:

 

"tis less important to have the "perfect product" than than it is to have a good product. "

 

And since when is 'good enough" acceptable? Isn't that what got Detroit in deep trouble? Isn't that the type of decision that got the C170 to carry over? [that one hates so much] What is wrong with geting something better than good?????

 

How much of a Brazilian Fiesta can you really bring to NA? Can the bumpers meet 5 mph crash (required for Canadian market)? Will vehicle meet NHTSA standards with minimal changes? Do you think NA customers would deal with a RoCam engine? Could it even meet NA emissions?

 

If you're redesigning half the vehicle anyways - why not wait and do it right. And 'federalizing' an existing vehicle will ALWAYS cost more than designing it right from scratch.

[Biker16]

First of all, I don't know that you can get many C class cars with leather, traction control AND heated seats. Which are all still available on the Focus--bellyache about the missing sport packages all you want, more people want these features.

 

Those feature are offered on theFocus, and other C-car in its class. and where is the stability contol, sat nav, sirius/xm radio, mp3 player jack, Ipod jack, standard rear disk brakes, power windows with global closing and opening, lighted glove box, footwell lighting, rear head restraints, or even a dome light for the back seat. it is the little things that add up, to cheap feeling car or a expensive feeling car.

 

I know real people don't want those features, I am sure you have studies to prove that.

 

Secondly, Ford's rumored plan was a stripped down EcoSport, NOT a Fiesta. A stripped down Brazilian car, sold as a sub Focus entry? That has BAD IDEA written all over it.

that was a bad idea

 

As far as crying over a missing Fiesta right now, Ford can't make the Fiesta as cheaply as Chevy can the Aveo, ergo, any comparison between the two is based on specious logic. The Fiesta must needs sell for more than the Aveo, which it cannot in current form.

 

this is true, but the want and need for the fiesta here and now remains.

 

The exchange rate sucks right now.

 

the fiesta will meet US saftey standards, and emission standards.

 

if we get an ASP of 14k for it we may break even, if we could limit volume to 20-40k we shold be able to keep demand high enough to sell without incentives, and get our feet wet, in this exploding market.

Edited August 11, 2006 by Biker16

[RichardJensen]

Those feature are offered on theFocus, and other C-car in its class. and where is the stability contol, sat nav, sirius/xm radio, mp3 player jack, Ipod jack, standard rear disk brakes, power windows with global closing and opening, lighted glove box, footwell lighting, rear head restraints, or even a dome light for the back seat. it is the little things that add up, to cheap feeling car or a expensive feeling car.

 

...

 

if we get an ASP of 14k for it we may break even, if we could limit volume to 20-40k we shold be able to keep demand high enough to sell without incentives, and get our feet wet, in this exploding market.

Leather is a $700 option only available on the Cobalt SS, which doesn't offer heated seats, and has standard rear drums.

The Civic offers neither leather nor heated seats, and does not have standard 4-wheel disc brakes.

The Corolla offers neither leather nor heated seats, and has standard rear drums.

 

Don't know about rear domes on these models, and I believe the '08 Focus will have all the above mentioned audio goodies.

 

-------

 

Ford has about 4000 dealerships in the U.S., 20-40k Fiestas means an average of 5-10 Fiestas per dealer per year. This is not enough volume to get Ford's foot in the door, and not enough volume to pay the costs of marketing the thing.

[Biker16]

Leather is a $700 option only available on the Cobalt SS, which doesn't offer heated seats, and has standard rear drums.

The Civic offers neither leather nor heated seats, and does not have standard 4-wheel disc brakes.

The Corolla offers neither leather nor heated seats, and has standard rear drums.

 

Don't know about rear domes on these models, and I believe the '08 Focus will have all the above mentioned audio goodies.

 

leather seat is a good option to have, the MZ3 has it is they are much nicer than the focus's. heat seat are great up north. but do you know wat it is like to have a dark interior and no light to see into your back seat? I personally wired in a rear dome light and footwell lighting, for my 2000 Focus.

 

what about this

• Front side airbags with passenger-side Occupant Position Detection System (OPDS)

• Side curtain airbags

• Active head restraints

• Anti-lock braking system (ABS) with Electronic Brake Distribution (EBD)

• Power windows

that is standard on the civic.@$15,560.00

 

• Exterior temperature indicator

• 160-watt AM/FM/XM Ready®†/CD audio system with six speakers

• WMA and MP3 capability

• Speed-sensitive volume control (SVC)

• MP3/auxiliary input jack

• Steering wheel-mounted audio controls

• Rear-seat armrest

• One-touch power moonroof with tilt feature

• Honda Satellite-Linked Navigation System™ with Voice Recognition with 6.5" customizable touch screen, digital audio card reader.

standard on the Civic EX+GPS @ $20,760.00

 

Thats how you add $5000 to the price of a C-Car. add another $1800 for AWD. or add $2500 for a hybrid.

 

Ford has about 4000 dealerships in the U.S., 20-40k Fiestas means an average of 5-10 Fiestas per dealer per year. This is not enough volume to get Ford's foot in the door, and not enough volume to pay the costs of marketing the thing.

 

thru the First 7 months of 2006 Chevy sold 35,078 aveos, down from 41,795.

 

So in comparision the fiesta would lag the aveo, but even the 2007 AVEO is selling with 0 cash incentives.

2006 Aveo has $750.00

 

Ford dealers don't know how to sell low volume mainstream models. and that is a problem.

 

Did I mention the 2006 focus is selling for $10,995 after $3000 rebate. the 2007 focus already has a $2500 rebate.

Edited August 12, 2006 by Biker16

[Biker16]

richard and SliverSVT.

 

why would we pay $2500-3000 more for a 2008 Focus?

[RichardJensen]

leather seat is a good option to have, the MZ3 has it is they are much nicer than the focus's. heat seat are great up north. but do you know wat it is like to have a dark interior and no light to see into your back seat? I personally wired in a rear dome light and footwell lighting, for my 2000 Focus.

 

what about this

• Front side airbags with passenger-side Occupant Position Detection System (OPDS)

• Side curtain airbags

• Active head restraints

• Anti-lock braking system (ABS) with Electronic Brake Distribution (EBD)

• Power windows

that is standard on the civic.@$15,560.00

 

• Exterior temperature indicator

• 160-watt AM/FM/XM Ready®†/CD audio system with six speakers

• WMA and MP3 capability

• Speed-sensitive volume control (SVC)

• MP3/auxiliary input jack

• Steering wheel-mounted audio controls

• Rear-seat armrest

• One-touch power moonroof with tilt feature

• Honda Satellite-Linked Navigation System™ with Voice Recognition with 6.5" customizable touch screen, digital audio card reader.

standard on the Civic EX+GPS @ $20,760.00

 

Thats how you add $5000 to the price of a C-Car. add another $1800 for AWD. or add $2500 for a hybrid.

thru the First 7 months of 2006 Chevy sold 35,078 aveos, down from 41,795.

 

So in comparision the fiesta would lag the aveo, but ven the AVEO is selling with 0 cash incentives.

 

Ford dealers don't know how to sell low volume mainstream models. and that is a problem.

-Ford's dual-stage front airbags incorporate a passenger position detection system (as well as, IIRC, a weight sensor that limits, but does not disable the airbag). Weight sensitive cut-offs are like seat-belts. They are required by the Feds, starting with the '08 MY, I believe. The Civic would have this technology no matter what.

-side curtains and active headrestraints will have to wait for the '08 Focus

-ABS & side airbags are a $750 option on the optimisticly priced Focus SEs, factoring in incentives, you can get a Focus with ABS, side airbags, and traction control instead of curtain airbags, for about the same price as a Civic.

-EBD is a parts-bin add for Ford. Most of their vehicles have this feature.

-At the price closest to Civic MSRP (bearing in mind the Focus starts well below Civic list), Focus also has power windows

-the '08 upgrade should see the Focus move to the Ford NA standard instrument cluster, which will include an available trip computer with compass, fuel economy, and external temp readings

-Current Focus has available Sony audiophile system, '08 model will have aux input and available iPod connectivity. Move to standard Ford steering wheel means available steering wheel mounted radio controls. Use of Ford's standard head unit means Focus has speed sensitive volume control.

-don't know about that one--I don't think you can get it on the Civic either:

-All Ford's sunroofs are one-touch.

-Again, nav will come with the '08 Focus, which will move to a Ford standard head unit.

-Audio card reader seems a half-way measure, compared with iPod integration. Like Chrysler's in-dash hard drive, who's going to bother?

 

Most of the shortcomings on the Focus option list vs. the Civic (which still doesn't have leather, traction control, and a winter package) boil down to the Focus' antiquity (curtain airbags, head restraints, EBD) or its use of non-standard parts (gauge cluster, HVAC, steering wheel).

 

I expect the 2008 Focus will meet most of the Civic's standard & optional equipment, while offering EATC, leather, RSC, and iPod integration. Ford may make traction control standard as well.

 

------------

 

I doubt Ford could make a profit on a Fiesta selling in the 40k range, volume wise, at $14k, and I doubt that a Fiesta equipped similarly to an Aveo could sustain such a price (c. $1500 over the average Aveo). Even at $14k I would be willing to bet that the ASP in Europe is higher (excluding VAT), and Ford would have to pay the hundreds of dollars in extra shipping costs to get the EU Fiesta here.

 

richard and SliverSVT.

 

why would we pay $2500-3000 more for a 2008 Focus?

You wouldn't. You'd just pay closer to MSRP. I mean Ford's giving that much away anyway, they might as well throw in content, instead of giving cash to the customer.

 

Viz. the Ford Expedition, which has way more standard equipment than the outgoing model, and a $4k lower MSRP.

[Misteredog]

-Ford's dual-stage front airbags incorporate a passenger position detection system (as well as, IIRC, a weight sensor that limits, but does not disable the airbag). Weight sensitive cut-offs are like seat-belts. They are required by the Feds, starting with the '08 MY, I believe. The Civic would have this technology no matter what.

-side curtains and active headrestraints will have to wait for the '08 Focus

-ABS & side airbags are a $750 option on the optimisticly priced Focus SEs, factoring in incentives, you can get a Focus with ABS, side airbags, and traction control instead of curtain airbags, for about the same price as a Civic.

-EBD is a parts-bin add for Ford. Most of their vehicles have this feature.

-At the price closest to Civic MSRP (bearing in mind the Focus starts well below Civic list), Focus also has power windows

-the '08 upgrade should see the Focus move to the Ford NA standard instrument cluster, which will include an available trip computer with compass, fuel economy, and external temp readings

-Current Focus has available Sony audiophile system, '08 model will have aux input and available iPod connectivity. Move to standard Ford steering wheel means available steering wheel mounted radio controls. Use of Ford's standard head unit means Focus has speed sensitive volume control.

-don't know about that one--I don't think you can get it on the Civic either:

-All Ford's sunroofs are one-touch.

-Again, nav will come with the '08 Focus, which will move to a Ford standard head unit.

-Audio card reader seems a half-way measure, compared with iPod integration. Like Chrysler's in-dash hard drive, who's going to bother?

 

Most of the shortcomings on the Focus option list vs. the Civic (which still doesn't have leather, traction control, and a winter package) boil down to the Focus' antiquity (curtain airbags, head restraints, EBD) or its use of non-standard parts (gauge cluster, HVAC, steering wheel).

 

I expect the 2008 Focus will meet most of the Civic's standard & optional equipment, while offering EATC, leather, RSC, and iPod integration. Ford may make traction control standard as well.

 

------------

 

I doubt Ford could make a profit on a Fiesta selling in the 40k range, volume wise, at $14k, and I doubt that a Fiesta equipped similarly to an Aveo could sustain such a price (c. $1500 over the average Aveo). Even at $14k I would be willing to bet that the ASP in Europe is higher (excluding VAT), and Ford would have to pay the hundreds of dollars in extra shipping costs to get the EU Fiesta here.

You wouldn't. You'd just pay closer to MSRP. I mean Ford's giving that much away anyway, they might as well throw in content, instead of giving cash to the customer.

 

Viz. the Ford Expedition, which has way more standard equipment than the outgoing model, and a $4k lower MSRP.

 

You'r right Richard, there is no way that a Fiesta imported from Europe could compete on price with the Aveo or any Korean imports. The current exchange rates are unfavourable enough that they are hurting the PAG brands at much higher price points, and an acquaintance who works for VW informed me that the only reason VW is in the NA market currently is because of their Mexican production. Until Ford completes their planned expansion in Mexico, IIRC at Cuautitlan, there's no way to profitably sell a B car here.