NickF1011 Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 As a gun owner i would support the first one. The second one i am not going to support. Not sure how you can do that though. All the government has to do is keep track of who submits a background check and they basically know who owns a firearm. Might not know what kind specifically, but hey, details, details. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackHorse Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 And congress is impervious to the influence of well-financed lobbying. That is quite the argument. The NRA is effective because they advocate not only for a Constitutional right but also on behalf of millions upon millions of American citizens (that constitute 8% of gun owners) and millions of dollars in gun manufacturer donations who believe in your right to buy their product. The NRA is effective because they have plenty of funding to create hysteria and appeal to a simple demographic that is blinded by misguided patriotism. The NRA is effective because they convince simple people to buy guns. Millions of Americans do believe in the 2nd Amendment, myself included. All gun owners do not support the NRA. Just because you ignore their member statistics does not mean everyone that believes in the 2nd Amendment supports the NRA, or what it does. And once again you simply choose to ignore the financial impacts of lobbying on legislation and still manage to throw in an ad-hominem attack. I'm detecting a pattern here. The law was passed. Ignoring it was spearheaded by the NRA means they had nothing to do with it? So they didn't vastly outspend the opposition in support of passing it? Declaring criticism of a bill backed by the NRA, passed by people that received financial support from the NRA is just political agenda? Wow. Ignoring the fact that it was passed by Congress means Congress had nothing to do with it? The point I'm making is that you and other liberals love to blame the NRA and only the NRA when in point of fact the Congress had their hand in it just as much. More so even. You can't hold the one accountable and not the other. That's called a biased political agenda. And again, the final blame will always rest with Congress. You can't get around that no matter how much you try. The NRA doesn't pass laws and they don't force Congress to pass laws. That is just reality even if you can't accept it. I know it just fumes you because in this case it was a Democrat Congress and if nothing else, liberals are really good at blaming everyone else for things that they do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cal50 Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 I agree that the we don't need that many laws. Let's say we wiped the books clean and wanted to create simple, logical, effective gun legislation that people want. It would never happen. Lobbying groups like the NRA would never let it happen.That is the problem. They want no regulation because regulation infringes on the profit margins of their benefactors. They play this as "protection of personal rights and freedoms" when what they really mean is protection of gun sales they benefit directly from. The book does not need wiped clean , the laws need enforcement at a federal level with federal minimum prison time for select offenses. Walk into a bank, any bank and rob it of $1 and its a federal minimum of over a decade in prison. It works pretty well and not a lot of bank robberies. The legal procurement , ownership and use of a firearm is not the problem and targeting laws to affect the people that are not the problem solves nothing. You obviously have a hang up with the NRA which is simply an organized body that supports the 2nd amendment and legal gun ownership and use. The NRA is the main body that is responsible for firearm safety and police training across the country and does not support criminal use of firearms, period. The NRA is more "in tune" with the rank and file person and police officer than many dip shit politicians and others that get their firearm information from the latest action movie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackHorse Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 I think I'll send of a check to the NRA tomorrow just because I know they'll work to protect spaniards second amendment rights. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the_spaniard Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 Ignoring the fact that it was passed by Congress means Congress had nothing to do with it? The point I'm making is that you and other liberals love to blame the NRA and only the NRA when in point of fact the Congress had their hand in it just as much. More so even. You can't hold the one accountable and not the other. That's called a biased political agenda. And again, the final blame will always rest with Congress. You can't get around that no matter how much you try. The NRA doesn't pass laws and they don't force Congress to pass laws. That is just reality even if you can't accept it. I know it just fumes you because in this case it was a Democrat Congress and if nothing else, liberals are really good at blaming everyone else for things that they do. News flash, I'm not a liberal. So this constant insistence that I am against those bad old conservatives or that liberals can do no wrong is just silly, and why I ignore it. It doesn't fume me, or vex me, or perplex me, I find you funny and a little sad (like a clown that has lost a bet) that you just can't grasp the concept of my political affiliation. Yep, the final blame is with congress....never said it wasn't. Though I am not naive enough to believe that lobbying has no impact on legislation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the_spaniard Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 I think I'll send of a check to the NRA tomorrow just because I know they'll work to protect spaniards second amendment rights. Nahh, just buy a new pistol and that money will "trickle down". We all know those membership dues are how they make their money, though. It really is a grassroots organization only interested in the preservation of your constitutional rights. I would recommend the Glock 30S if you have a CCW permit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackHorse Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 News flash, I'm not a liberal. So this constant insistence that I am against those bad old conservatives or that liberals can do no wrong is just silly, and why I ignore it. It doesn't fume me, or vex me, or perplex me, I find you funny and a little sad (like a clown that has lost a bet) that you just can't grasp the concept of my political affiliation. Yep, the final blame is with congress....never said it wasn't. Though I am not naive enough to believe that lobbying has no impact on legislation. Oh my poor misguided friend. You are sooooo a liberal even if you don't realize it or can't bring yourself to admit it. lol But I do find it humorous how you have suddenly changed your argument from "Its all the NRA's fault" to "the final blame is with Congress." See how even you can come to a rational point of view when the flagrant flaws in your liberal talking points get pointed out to you? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the_spaniard Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 Oh my poor misguided friend. You are sooooo a liberal even if you don't realize it or can't bring yourself to admit it. lol But I do find it humorous how you have suddenly changed your argument from "Its all the NRA's fault" to "the final blame is with Congress." See how even you can come to a rational point of view when the flagrant flaws in your liberal talking points get pointed out to you? Because you can clearly see where I said it was all the NRAs fault, right? My point was NRA spends more money lobbying than other opposing gun control group, which has an effect on elections and the passing of legislation. Do you make it a habit to alter peoples views for congruence to your own, or am I just special? Please tell me it is the latter, ya big lug. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackHorse Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 Because you can clearly see where I said it was all the NRAs fault, right? I wouldn't worry about background checks as much as I would worry about the NRA fighting for the rights of convicted felons to own guns, which they currently do hmmm Yeah I didn't see any condemnation of the liberal Congress that passed the law to which you are making reference there. I just see you blaming the NRA for it. Check mate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FiredMotorCompany Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 Not sure how you can do that though. All the government has to do is keep track of who submits a background check and they basically know who owns a firearm. Might not know what kind specifically, but hey, details, details.Like the NSA only collects metadata on all cell calls. Details details. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FiredMotorCompany Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 The book does not need wiped clean , the laws need enforcement at a federal level with federal minimum prison time for select offenses. Walk into a bank, any bank and rob it of $1 and its a federal minimum of over a decade in prison. It works pretty well and not a lot of bank robberies. The legal procurement , ownership and use of a firearm is not the problem and targeting laws to affect the people that are not the problem solves nothing. You obviously have a hang up with the NRA which is simply an organized body that supports the 2nd amendment and legal gun ownership and use. The NRA is the main body that is responsible for firearm safety and police training across the country and does not support criminal use of firearms, period. The NRA is more "in tune" with the rank and file person and police officer than many dip shit politicians and others that get their firearm information from the latest action movie. We'll get Eric Holder right on that enforcing to laws on the books. Obama will see to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the_spaniard Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 hmmm Yeah I didn't see any condemnation of the liberal Congress that passed the law to which you are making reference there. I just see you blaming the NRA for it. Check mate. Ahhhh now I get it. You want me to call out a liberal congress for passing the Firearms Owners Protection Act of 1986 . No problem, but you realize the massive failure and expense of the programs caused it to be de-funded in 1992? How about the NRA/republican-led attempt to re-fund it in 1995? How about the NRA/republican-led attempt to re-fund it in 1996? How about the NRA tying the entire issue up in court to this day? How about the NRA fighting for automatic reinstatement of gun rights while ex-felons were waiting to be assessed? I was wondering why you weren't getting this. You didn't read one of my original sources. You never even answered my original question - how come you have not called out republicans backing this legislation sponsored by the NRA? You just deflected back to me about how come I am not calling out the democrats, and never answered my question. You ignored the fact that attempts to restore/re-fund this legislation was led by NRA-backed republicans (even today) and instead wanted me to focus on the democratic congress that passed Firearms Owners Protection Act of 1986. Very slippy, sir. Now how about my original question? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackHorse Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 Ahhhh now I get it. You want me to call out a liberal congress for passing the Firearms Owners Protection Act of 1986 . No problem, but you realize the massive failure and expense of the programs caused it to be de-funded in 1992? How about the NRA/republican-led attempt to re-fund it in 1995? How about the NRA/republican-led attempt to re-fund it in 1996? How about the NRA tying the entire issue up in court to this day? How about the NRA fighting for automatic reinstatement of gun rights while ex-felons were waiting to be assessed? I was wondering why you weren't getting this. You didn't read one of my original sources. You never even answered my original question - how come you have not called out republicans backing this legislation sponsored by the NRA? You just deflected back to me about how come I am not calling out the democrats, and never answered my question. You ignored the fact that attempts to restore/re-fund this legislation was led by NRA-backed republicans (even today) and instead wanted me to focus on the democratic congress that passed Firearms Owners Protection Act of 1986. Very slippy, sir. Now how about my original question? Well for starters I have no idea if the "attempts" to get it refunded were successful. I'm guessing they weren't or you would be hooting about that all over the place. Secondly we have absolutely no evidence that the NRA is openly advocating for the government to give dangerous felons their gun rights back other than your say so. Something tells me that if we asked the NRA about this that they would almost surely have a different story than your own, wouldn't they? I just don't see the NRA openly advocating for dangerous felons to be given guns. But I understand that you have an agenda so you have to twist and contort the facts to meet that agenda because you don't like the NRA. Now the reality is that you openly blamed the NRA for the passage of this law when common sense and logic would tell you that they just can't do that unless we elect the NRA to Congress. Frankly I don't care that it was a liberal Congress that initially passed the Act. I just found that to be icing on the cake as it were because you're such a liberal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Langston Hughes Posted March 5, 2014 Author Share Posted March 5, 2014 You're the first one I've met! Seriously though, I respectfully disagree on the subject. Ok. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 Like the NSA only collects metadata on all cell calls. Details details. Don't approve of that any more than you do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the_spaniard Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 (edited) Well for starters I have no idea if the "attempts" to get it refunded were successful. I'm guessing they weren't or you would be hooting about that all over the place. Secondly we have absolutely no evidence that the NRA is openly advocating for the government to give dangerous felons their gun rights back other than your say so. Something tells me that if we asked the NRA about this that they would almost surely have a different story than your own, wouldn't they? I just don't see the NRA openly advocating for dangerous felons to be given guns. But I understand that you have an agenda so you have to twist and contort the facts to meet that agenda because you don't like the NRA. Now the reality is that you openly blamed the NRA for the passage of this law when common sense and logic would tell you that they just can't do that unless we elect the NRA to Congress. Frankly I don't care that it was a liberal Congress that initially passed the Act. I just found that to be icing on the cake as it were because you're such a liberal. I can't convince you of anything if you don't believe lobbying has a an influence on legislation and the election of people that promote that legislation. The NRA actually ranks our representatives on a scale of A-F...those scoring A being those most aligned with their policies. They make no attempts at hiding this, and if you are an NRA member and supporter, you know this. Just one example: What would you say if a candidate (Todd Russ ® Oklahoma) that was ranked 92% (A-) by the NRA attempted to put forth legislation that would restore gun rights to felons in a state where a non-violent felonies encompassed drug trafficking, child pornography, bombing and abuse of a vulnerable adult? (Sources: associated press, project votesmart, followthemoney.org) There is a nice breakdown of the NRA here. Like it or not, whether you think I have shown you proof or not, the NRA provides financial support for candidates that have supported legislation to give convicted felons their gun rights back. And financial support is not all of the pie. Imagine them actively lobbying against candidates that were given poor grades. Their contributions are public record, the sponsors of the legislation are public record, and the bills are public record. Hell even the arrest records of the felons that committed firearms crimes after they had their gun rights reinstated under these laws are a matter of public record. If you don't want to check out my sources (and it seems obvious you don't) research it yourself. Or just don't believe me, the public record, or the influence of lobbying on legislation. I really don't have much more to say as I have supported my point fairly well. Edited March 6, 2014 by the_spaniard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the_spaniard Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 (edited) You obviously have a hang up with the NRA which is simply an organized body that supports the 2nd amendment and legal gun ownership and use. No, I have a hang up with organizations that claim to be grass roots defenders of our constitutional rights when they are really represent corporate interests of gun manufacturers...particularly when they manufacture political crisis after crisis to promote firearm sales all under the guise of "protecting your freedoms". They will "protect your freedoms" as long as it is profitable for them to do so. That is what the NRA has become. The NRA is the main body that is responsible for firearm safety and police training across the country and does not support criminal use of firearms, period. No, they just want to ensure convicted criminals have access to them. As I said, every warm body is a potential gun sale...public safety and financial cost be damned. The NRA is more "in tune" with the rank and file person and police officer than many dip shit politicians and others that get their firearm information from the latest action movie. Too bad their membership numbers don't back that statement up. Edited March 6, 2014 by the_spaniard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cal50 Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 (edited) No, I have a hang up with organizations that claim to be grass roots defenders of our constitutional rights when they are really represent corporate interests of gun manufacturers...particularly when they manufacture political crisis after crisis to promote firearm sales all under the guise of "protecting your freedoms". They will "protect your freedoms" as long as it is profitable for them to do so. That is what the NRA has become. No, they just want to ensure convicted criminals have access to them. As I said, every warm body is a potential gun sale...public safety and financial cost be damned. Too bad their membership numbers don't back that statement up. Simply wrong on many levels but you are entitled to your opinion. A few distinctions~ The NRA is an issue based civil rights organization. Their membership joins them because they support the NRA's views, the NRA doesn't test the winds and try to represent their membership. They don't ask gun manufacturers what positions they should take; gun manufacturers try to walk the line with the NRA positions. The NRA isn't a representative body. They are an issue organization. if after some horrible news event, the current and former membership of the ACLU supported the suspension of some civil rights (perhaps only with mild levels of fervor) and the ACLU continued to support those civil rights, are the ACLU members gull and tools? The NRA isn't like a union that you join so that they can represent you and your interests. They are a civil rights organization that you join because you support that civil right. The NRA does get funds from various gun manufactures (that support the 2nd amendment) and the NRA uses that money accordingly. The percentage they receive is debatable but its no different than any other person or organization that provides funds for a cause they believe in. You obviously have some misconceptions and ill feelings towards the NRA but overall there "image" is more positive than negative. http://www.american.com/archive/datapoint-entries/nra-popularity Edited March 6, 2014 by cal50 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Langston Hughes Posted March 6, 2014 Author Share Posted March 6, 2014 And back on topic The American Legion @AmericanLegion On S.1982 vote: There was a right way to vote and a wrong way to vote today, and 41 senators chose the wrong way. https://twitter.com/AmericanLegion/status/439141641022996480 IAVA @iava Here's the roll call vote on the Vets Omnibus Bill. Needed 60 votes & got 56 - for a transformational bill. Shameful. https://twitter.com/iava/status/439150401812959232 Ray Kelley, legislative director for the VFW, said his group particularly supports a provision that authorizes new leases for several community-based outpatient clinics — a measure the VFW says will improve veterans’ access to health care by expanding facilities. Amvets did come out against the bill. Others that were in favor of S1982 were Afghanistan Veterans of America, Disabled American Veterans and Paralyzed Veterans of America. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the_spaniard Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 (edited) Simply wrong on many levels but you are entitled to your opinion. Disagreeing with someone does not automatically make you right. I find it fascinating how many here dismiss things outright when provided with direct evidence to the contrary. The NRA is an issue based civil rights organization. Their membership joins them because they support the NRA's views, the NRA doesn't test the winds and try to represent their membership. They don't ask gun manufacturers what positions they should take; gun manufacturers try to walk the line with the NRA positions.The NRA isn't a representative body. They are an issue organization. if after some horrible news event, the current and former membership of the ACLU supported the suspension of some civil rights (perhaps only with mild levels of fervor) and the ACLU continued to support those civil rights, are the ACLU members gull and tools? Tell me, does the ACLU receive overwhelming funding from the largest manufacturers of products in a single industry? Apples and oranges. What sales of what products skyrocket when the ACLU takes a point on an issue? The NRA isn't like a union that you join so that they can represent you and your interests. They are a civil rights organization that you join because you support that civil right. And less than 10% of gun owners feel a need to support the NRA financially to support that civil right. The NRA does get funds from various gun manufactures (that support the 2nd amendment) and the NRA uses that money accordingly. The percentage they receive is debatable but its no different than any other person or organization that provides funds for a cause they believe in. Their funds are overwhelmingly derived from gun manufacturers. it is not even close, it is not even in the ballpark, compared to membership dues. The percentage is not that debatable. This is not a grass-roots organization. You obviously have some misconceptions and ill feelings towards the NRA but overall there "image" is more positive than negative. http://www.american.com/archive/datapoint-entries/nra-popularity I am not arguing whether the NRA is popular or not. Even if it were the point (just because a majority of people believe something does not make it correct) or vindicate the NRA in the context of this discussion. The overwhelming majority of people in this country don't pay dues to support the organization. The overwhelming majority of people in this country that own firearms don't pay dues to support the organization. As mentioned above, they only claim less than 10% (and even their 8% number is debatable) membership among the people that own firearms in this country. They can be the most popular thing in the world and it would have zero bearing on the facts that support my argument that they are A.) overwhelmingly funded by gun manufacturers, and not the people (gun owners) and B.) Actively support legislation that put firearms back in the hands of convicted felons, in some cases violent felons. Through all of the bluster presented in this discussion, no one has provided any evidence to the contrary of these two claims while my evidence is a matter of public record. As such that concludes my discussion of this topic, and I apologize to the OP for multiple derailments of his posts. Edited March 6, 2014 by the_spaniard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackHorse Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 (edited) I can't convince you of anything You should have stopped right there. No you can't convince me of anything. I don't believe anything that you say because you are a liberal with an agenda. You will twist and contort to facts of what ever political issue you are rambling on about to suit your left wing agenda. There will not be a word of truth in it. You can't convince me of anything because I don't believe anything that liberals say. They lie. They have to lie to get what they want because if liberals ever came right out and said what they really want the country would never support them. PS I sent off a check to NRA-ILA this morning. Your welcome. Edited March 6, 2014 by BlackHorse 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Langston Hughes Posted March 6, 2014 Author Share Posted March 6, 2014 You should have stopped right there. No you can't convince me of anything. I don't believe anything that you say because you are a liberal with an agenda. You will twist and contort to facts of what ever political issue you are rambling on about to suit your left wing agenda. There will not be a word of truth in it. You can't convince me of anything because I don't believe anything that liberals say. They lie. They have to lie to get what they want because if liberals ever came right out and said what they really want the country would never support them. PS I sent off a check to NRA-ILA this morning. Your welcome. Well, this isn't the most ridiculous thing you've ever said but close to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackHorse Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 Well, this isn't the most ridiculous thing you've ever said but close to it. Oh look, it's spaniard's two cent lackey. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Langston Hughes Posted March 7, 2014 Author Share Posted March 7, 2014 Oh look, it's spaniard's two cent lackey. LOL. Coming from you that is a compliment. Im surprised your not out defending the Aryan Nation as just misunderstood, but perhaps your memorizing the NRA's talking points so you can be not convinced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackHorse Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 LOL. Coming from you that is a compliment. Im surprised your not out defending the Aryan Nation as just misunderstood, but perhaps your memorizing the NRA's talking points so you can be not convinced. I'm sorry I couldn't understand the point of that post because you still haven't figured out how to use the words your and you're properly. It is very difficult to have an intelligent conversation with someone who is intellectually absent. Come back after you have completed the sixth grade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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