Where can I start a conversation about......

[Stray Kat]

.....and oh by the way I know of no classic GM cars in my area where the owner/ builder went, "gee I'd like to re power, let me skip right on over to Ford and see what they have".

 

Ford doesn't even have the Fox body Mustang business anymore. That is now a subset of the LS V8 group. There are some cool Coyote powered fox's out there but their numbers are dwarfed by the LS into anything crowd.

[RichardJensen]

Here's my question:

 

Why should Ford put forth anything other than a token effort here?

 

GM has the hot-rod business lock, stock, and barrel, and it doesn't help their bottom line at all. It doesn't improve consideration for their new vehicles, it doesn't add cachet to their current efforts.

 

In fact, so many of the odds and ends are made by third parties (often including the blocks themselves--when they're not being picked up second hand) that going small-block may mean only a few dollars to GM.

 

----

 

Furthermore, most of these SBC fans don't even have a particular loyalty to GM in general or Chevy in particular. They're loyal to the SBC ecosystem. And trying to displace that is a fool's errand.

 

----

 

As far as I'm willing to go in this is for Ford to make it very easy for people starting out with mods & hot rods to buy an engine kit that will make it very simple and straightforward to drop a Fairlane V8 (I don't like calling them 'small block Fords') into a Deuce--as well as other common mods.

 

I don't see any value whatsoever in trying to displace an entrenched culture that will insist on dropping SBCs into 30+ year old Fords, be they 1985 Mustangs in 2015, or 1935 V8s in 1965.

 

You make it easy for people to start off using Ford power, and that's about it.

 

(and we all know why people put GM power in Ford bodies: The Ford bodies were built better. A *lot* better).

Edited June 18, 2015 by RichardJensen

[RichardJensen]

And, by the way, it's time to start calling them Fairlane V8s.

 

Instead of using an inaccurate GM-derived term, call them Fairlane V8s, after the intermediate car that helped make Sloan's brand ladder obsolete.

[Stray Kat]

And, by the way, it's time to start calling them Fairlane V8s.

 

Instead of using an inaccurate GM-derived term, call them Fairlane V8s, after the intermediate car that helped make Sloan's brand ladder obsolete.

I agree with this 100%. I only used the term "small block" " big block" because that is the commonly used terminology.

[SoonerLS]

Gosh I'm no great communicator but I do think I described at least to some degree what's lacking.

Describing what's lacking is not the same thing as telling me what you expect Ford to do about it. I already understand the problem; what I'm not seeing is a solution.

 

The main problem I see is that this isn't Ford's problem to solve. The use of the SBC in hot rods and street rods is a grassroots effort--it's not that GM started supplying engines for the projects, it's just that GM engines were ubiquitous and hot rodder and street rodders started using them. Unless the guys building the rods start using Ford power, there's not going to be a significant change, so how do you propose that Ford get them?

 

FWIW, I detest all of the GM small blocks, and seeing one in a street rod is...not my favorite thing in the world. It takes no creativity or thought, just an ability to follow someone else's instructions. (Or, as a rather crude statement puts it, a moron with a small-block Chebbie is like a frat boy with an...err, in a state of arousal...finishing the adage is left as an exercise for the reader.)

[RichardJensen]

In fact, Ford may be making more money from some of these LS builders than GM:

 

http://www.autoblog.com/2014/01/14/1932-ford-5-window-coupe-body-ford-component-sales-united-pacific-industries-official-sema/

[Stray Kat]

Here's my question:

 

Why should Ford put forth anything other than a token effort here?

 

.

 

......aaannnd that's all you've got today, a token effort.

 

Richard you are one of the people I most respect on this forum. I think you back up what you say very well. You have addressed this subject from a business standpoint very well but you've lost sight I think of what this really is.

 

Automobiles evoke passion. They are more than appliances to some. Fortunes have been made and lost in the pursuit of them. They are all that and so much more to many people. C'mon this is nothing new.

 

Now where does Ford fit in all this? In my opinion Ford is the last major automobile company that is still family owned or controlled. Henry Ford's descendants are still active within the company. Ford was started by a huge underdog who won a race most people would have given him no chance in.

 

Henry Ford beat back GM and Chrysler by introducing the mass produced V8. With that move he secured the reputation of the company as being an engine company. Ford cars of the '20's, '30's and '40's are known to be some of the most beautiful and sought after cars ever.

 

How many more obvious statements do I need to make?

 

I see many expensive programs that Ford competes in only to have rules makers destroy any advantage Ford works to with the stroke of a pen.

 

I say take a look at what Harley has done with their program. A decade or so ago there was a big push for Harley clone engines. That didn't sit well I don't think based on the tremendous hard parts support you now get right from the factory (Screaming Eagle?).

[RichardJensen]

you've lost sight I think of what this really is.

 

A decade or so ago there was a big push for Harley clone engines.

 

You're talking about two very different things.

 

On the one hand, you've got a five decade old entrenched LS/SBC marketplace.

 

On the other hand, people wanted to make clone Harley engines.

 

You can't compare the two, especially given the overall larger market for vehicle mods. You're talking about a much more strongly entrenched culture in a much larger community.

 

Do you think Edsel II and Bill Ford like seeing SBC-style blocks in Ford bodies? Or, for that matter, Henry III?

 

But the reason why it's still a family owned business is because Ford isn't about to spend tens, if not hundreds of millions of dollars to singlehandedly create a Ford Power ecosystem to match the SBC-style system.

 

I mean, that's why Ford's not in F1. It's why they're not trying to get the overall win at LeMans: Those are ego-trip expenditures, not defensible activities.

 

The best shot Ford has is to aim for a generational shift over time: Make it easy for a guy just starting out to put a Ford in a Ford. Outside of that you're spending a lot of money on ego, not business.

[Edstock]

 

Do you think Edsel II and Bill Ford like seeing SBC-style blocks in Ford bodies? Or, for that matter, Henry III?

 

But the reason why it's still a family owned business is because Ford isn't about to spend tens, if not hundreds of millions of dollars to singlehandedly create a Ford Power ecosystem to match the SBC-style system.

 

I mean, that's why Ford's not in F1. It's why they're not trying to get the overall win at LeMans: Those are ego-trip expenditures, not defensible activities.

 

The best shot Ford has is to aim for a generational shift over time: Make it easy for a guy just starting out to put a Ford in a Ford. Outside of that you're spending a lot of money on ego, not business.

 

10-4.

[Stray Kat]

You're talking about two very different things.

 

On the one hand, you've got a five decade old entrenched LS/SBC marketplace.

 

On the other hand, people wanted to make clone Harley engines.

 

You can't compare the two, especially given the overall larger market for vehicle mods. You're talking about a much more strongly entrenched culture in a much larger community.

 

Do you think Edsel II and Bill Ford like seeing SBC-style blocks in Ford bodies? Or, for that matter, Henry III?

 

 

But the reason why it's still a family owned business is because Ford isn't about to spend tens, if not hundreds of millions of dollars to singlehandedly create a Ford Power ecosystem to match the SBC-style system.

 

I mean, that's why Ford's not in F1. It's why they're not trying to get the overall win at LeMans: Those are ego-trip expenditures, not defensible activities.

 

The best shot Ford has is to aim for a generational shift over time: Make it easy for a guy just starting out to put a Ford in a Ford. Outside of that you're spending a lot of money on ego, not business.

 

Richard, I'm not talking about something so big. I'm talking about something that could be organized and put together almost exclusively with off the shelf parts. The majority of what is lacking is organizing what is there and the information that pertains to it and maybe a couple sensible special parts.

 

Again the wheel does not to be reinvented. There is nothing wrong with what Ford has available already. Just a few areas they come up short. Hell they could contract it out for peanuts. I think it's doable on the cheap. I know what to do ( to use a Trump euphemism) and I'd just like to attract the right person in the system to hear me out.

 

You mention Henry III. Now there is a car guy. I'd like to talk to that guy.

[RichardJensen]

Hell they could contract it out for peanuts. I think it's doable on the cheap.

 

I think that's the best way to go about it.

 

Some Ford fan with a bit of business acumen should put this together in a proposal and pitch it to Ford.

[YT90SC]

Don't look to Harley for the future of anything. Harley is dying in part due to their in-ability to move away from their past. They cannot innovate due to their core customer wanting a certain product. And that core customer is getting old. On the other hand Polaris Industries' bike sales are rising fast. Harley continues to tumble. Harley tried to make Buell work. It couldn't.

What you want is drop in, turn key Ford stuff for a market that is about being custom. Only posers or HIGH end builders would buy an off the shelf drop in engine. And Chevy is used cause they are cheap and plentiful. You are asking for a premium product in a market where, for less money than a fancy set of Ford valve covers, you can buy an LS/LT engine from the boneyard, hit it with some boost and or giggle juice and make stupid power till you shed light on the inside of the block. Then repeat, again for less than another set of valve covers. The older pre-vortec 350/350 combo was that way too, but they have dropped out of favor due to more power and more availability in the later model engines.

The other issue is that you are asking for many year out of production parts and assemblies that do not meet emissions in any way. Remember the last pushrod Ford V8 engine was in the 2001 Explorer - 15 model years ago and it was the lone hold out. ALL the other lines lost their pushrod V8 engines in the 90's.

[RichardJensen]

Well, yeah, there's that too.

 

There's no way on earth you're going to be cheaper than junkyard. And there are so many more LS blocks than there are Fairlane blocks in the junkyards.

[Stray Kat]

Don't look to Harley for the future of anything. Harley is dying in part due to their in-ability to move away from their past. They cannot innovate due to their core customer wanting a certain product. And that core customer is getting old. On the other hand Polaris Industries' bike sales are rising fast. Harley continues to tumble. Harley tried to make Buell work. It couldn't.

What you want is drop in, turn key Ford stuff for a market that is about being custom. Only posers or HIGH end builders would buy an off the shelf drop in engine. And Chevy is used cause they are cheap and plentiful. You are asking for a premium product in a market where, for less money than a fancy set of Ford valve covers, you can buy an LS/LT engine from the boneyard, hit it with some boost and or giggle juice and make stupid power till you shed light on the inside of the block. Then repeat, again for less than another set of valve covers. The older pre-vortec 350/350 combo was that way too, but they have dropped out of favor due to more power and more availability in the later model engines.

The other issue is that you are asking for many year out of production parts and assemblies that do not meet emissions in any way. Remember the last pushrod Ford V8 engine was in the 2001 Explorer - 15 model years ago and it was the lone hold out. ALL the other lines lost their pushrod V8 engines in the 90's.

 

Well heck you've figured this whole thing out. We should just give up I guess? GM and their LS have got it covered right? Let me give you a clue, you can't call a guy running a Ford crate motor a poser if you're running an LS. Let's get that right off the table right now.

 

Next there are all kinds of people with all different skill sets. There are very few engine builders these days. There are also very few so called "traditional" V8's in the boneyards around here. Now it would cost Ford almost nothing to pull together some period correct engine accessories apply them to and existing 302 crate engine and target a large portion of this audience. I think a stylized Ford V8 specifically intended for the hot rod market and branded as something uniquely Ford like a Thunderbird, Thunder jet, Power King, Intercepter or even Fairlane engine series. I'm mildly insulted that you think a pair of valve covers is what I'm talking about.

 

I envision a separate catalog from the normal Ford Racing book. In this catalog I would fill it with examples of each year or similar group of years V8 era and Model A Fords. I'd be pulling in a cross section of parts and assemblies from the industry that are available today. I'd license them and pull them into the Ford Hot Rod department and display technically how they work and work together. In fact there is a stillborn book project pertaining to this exact subject. I believe the author passed away before completing it. Where necessary I'd tackle the two Achilles heel problems that need to be addressed when using Ford power on certain model years. The problem areas are where Ford can really help people. An interchange and junkyard spotters guide would really serve to unlock the so called mysteries of using Ford stuff.

 

So in a nutshell we're talking about researching information that Ford already has. We need a couple unique parts that don't exist but are not complicated. We need a separate brand and marketing strategy that connects with the genre.

 

Remember these are not racecars, they should be good running, reliable and spirited performers. Expensive race parts are not needed for the vast majority of today's builds.

 

Just some of the ideas, thought I'd let them flow.

Edited June 19, 2015 by Stray Kat

[SoonerLS]

The other issue is that you are asking for many year out of production parts and assemblies that do not meet emissions in any way. Remember the last pushrod Ford V8 engine was in the 2001 Explorer - 15 model years ago and it was the lone hold out. ALL the other lines lost their pushrod V8 engines in the 90's.

FYI, Ford still has Windsor 302/363 (302 Stroker), 427, and 460 crate engines in the Ford Racing catalog.

 

ETA: Or are you talking about pulling Windsors from junkyards?

Edited June 19, 2015 by SoonerLS

[Stray Kat]

Ford and Motorcraft have a very good remanufacturing program. Why can't a couple specific engines from their own source be the basis for reasonable hot rod repower and engines? These engines are built to factory new specs.

[YT90SC]

Sooner, most builders and hobby builders I know cannot afford Ford's- or anyone else's- outlandish prices for crate engines, so yes, I am talking boneyards. The magazines never feature real builds- the guy putting together the classic in his garage in his free time with kids and a mortgage to pay. Sometimes its just dollars and cents that drive a guy to do the things he does.

[Stray Kat]

Maybe I'm out of touch. This month I did an in chassis piston and ring job on a Flathead powered '48 Mercury. A piece of metal found its way into the engine and embedded itself into the top of a piston.

 

Tomorrow I'll be packing up a 292 Y-block that I rebuilt for a '55 T-bird.

 

I have two full Flathead Fords coming, one for a '40 Ford and one for a motorcycle believe it or not.

 

All of these engines are pretty special to their owners. Yes in all the cases the guys are of the older set. They certainly have built their share of engines over the years but it gets to a point where a lot of folks don't want to be as "equipped" as necessary to do proper engine work in their garages.

 

Now is a rat rod guy going to buy a crate motor? Probably not, BUT! If an average middle class person is building their dream car certainly being able to obtain a fresh and reasonably priced power plant could and probably would reduce build time and guess work.

 

Besides I'm not advocating this be just a crate engine plan. I'm saying Ford should look into creating a line of parts that really fit and work together. Components from the crate motors could "trickle down" for the do it your selfer.

[YT90SC]

What you are not seeing is that you and others like you are filling the need for those high end guys already.