End of the Line for Lincoln Town Car?

[goingincirclez]

Article - Chicago Tribune

 

Not sure if you can see it without registering - (if not let me know and I will post the article) - but the article paints an interesting picture of life on Wall Street - I guess instead of yellow CV taxis, black TC liveries are what floods the Street.

 

Personally I find the idea of brokerage houses and banks housing their own fleets of "Black Cars" pretty amusing.

 

Article aslo mentions that the fleet/retail split for the TC is about even (although total vlume is low).

 

On a more serious note - some poeple like to point out that Ford "takes care of its fleet customers" with the CV Interceptor and E-series. So will they do the same by keeping the TC around, somewhere? Move it to Canada after all?

 

Personally I don't see the GM taking over the TC. Not only is it smaller, but it doesn't have the same panache the TC (such as it is) has. The TC sold itself to these people on space and luxury, and the GM just doesn't have as much of that even if it IS on the same platform. I can also say I've seen some 300 limos and they are SHARP. OTOH, Chysler was pretty miffed at dealers installing fake landau roofs on the 300, which is De Rigeur for any self-effacing fleet vehicle.

 

Personally I like the understated looks of the GM much better than the ungainly TC... if Ford did a stretch GM for fleet service, that might be interesting...

Edited September 13, 2006 by goingincirclez

[630land]

Ford does make the P70 6 inch stretched CVic. Can easily add GM trim to it. But who knows?

[goingincirclez]

After a few more minutes, a couple more thoughts:

 

- I can totally understand dropping the TC (in its current form) as a Lincoln. It's old, it's tarnished, it's not especially pretty or luxurious or too peppy. Of course, the same could be said for the rest of Lincoln's exisiting and coming lineup, but the TC seems especially out of place for where they (presumably) want to take Lincoln during its rebuilding phase.

 

That said...

 

Does pushing the GM as a replacement make much sense? What of the new Mercury "Urban Female Chic" motif? The GM does NOT fit that. In fact the same thing I said about the TC would apply to the GM even more so. The GM DOES have an extremely loyal customer base, though.

 

Now, assuming that the Panthers have some sort of life and value left to Ford, what if Ford kept the TC (or a "new stretch GM") around, as an "unbranded" fleet special? Kind of like how Chevy used the word "Classic" to mean "fleet POS" - but if Ford were more discreet about it, they might not damage or confuse their other brands.... yet still take full advantage of the equity they've built over the years? (You go to a Lincoln dealer in two years and ask for a town car. Salesman says "No, that doesn't fit what Lincoln's about anymore." But after pressure, he lets you in on the dirty secret that you can order one direct from the Ford fleet catalog if you insist... since they can slap it along the CV production line...)

 

I dunno. Just some ludicrous thinking on my part. I'm know there are equal cons as well as pros to the idea... just tossing it out there.

Edited September 13, 2006 by goingincirclez

[Watchdevil]

Something I am suprised we did not see out of the demise of the Town Car is a Lincolnized version of the CV/GM. Not that I think it would be appropriate but it's Ford's way of thinking lately instead of moving the body tooling to the CV/GM plant. Of course it would have been asking too much for an all new body style on top of the old platform that could have shared a modern greenhouse but distinct front and rear ends for each division.

 

OTOH, Chysler was pretty miffed at dealers installing fake landau roofs on the 300, which is De Rigeur for any self-effacing fleet vehicle.

 

There ought to be a law against padded vinyl roofs, pinstriping and gold packages... There are some things that just have no retro appeal. Some cars of the 1970's were beautiful with no vinyl roofs and no opera windows. I guess the only people who would buy such a thing are people who cling onto the notion that those things mean luxury but the way I see it it's like someone putting brass fixtures in their house or opting for a pair of gold framed glasses with big frameless lenses... Out of style and outright tacky...

Edited September 14, 2006 by Watchdevil

[630land]

Well, the old 70's styles seem to be finally dying off. I don't see as many 'fake topped' new cars as there were as recently as 2002.

 

Once in while I see a new DTS or LaCrosse with the 'full Cleveland' look on it. But with that generation of buyers leaving the market....

[retro-man]

You know, as soon as we pronounce the 70s dead, they're bound to come back. I think we're just about through re-living the 60s and "mid-century modern" now, aren't we? (Personally, I've started letting my hair grow out, and I've got an inexplicable hankerin' for a sheepskin coat like the one I had back in the day.)

 

Goingincircles, I kind of like your idea. What if it was a whole division - FFV (Ford Fleet Vehicles) - all factory direct, with the occasional odd sale to the private individual who marches to a different drummer? FFV Towncar, FFV Police Cruiser, etc..... As has been said many times, "All the tooling's paid for." Occasionally you see an old Checker that wasn't a taxi cab..... Anybody catch the "Overhaulin'" episode where they built the Checker Cab hot rod for the "New York New York" casino in Las Vegas?

[RichardJensen]

(Personally, I've started letting my hair grow out, and I've got an inexplicable hankerin' for a sheepskin coat like the one I had back in the day.)

 

McCLOUD!!!!

Edited September 14, 2006 by RichardJensen

[grbeck]

You know, as soon as we pronounce the 70s dead, they're bound to come back. I think we're just about through re-living the 60s and "mid-century modern" now, aren't we? (Personally, I've started letting my hair grow out, and I've got an inexplicable hankerin' for a sheepskin coat like the one I had back in the day.)

 

 

Just so long as DaimlerChrysler doesn't bring out a new version of the AMC Gremlin...I learned to drive on a 1973 model, and it was bad enough the first time around. There's a reason some of us aren't too fond of the 1970s when it comes to vehicles...

[goingincirclez]

There ought to be a law against padded vinyl roofs, pinstriping and gold packages... There are some things that just have no retro appeal. Some cars of the 1970's were beautiful with no vinyl roofs and no opera windows.

 

Agreed on gold packages. Ugh... that's one retro fad from the 90's that I do not miss one bit. I'd rather be caught driving a beater with rubber-band-treads on 24" dubs, than a gold-package car.

 

As for 70's style - lot's of it was tacky, and some cars stripped were beautiful - but then those cars tell the tale of the era. Would a Mark IV be the same without the vinyl opera window, huge chrome grille, and pattern side trim? Pimpin' ain't easy, you know! B)

 

But of course, Chrysler did show a new Imperial at NAIAS this year... :lol:

 

 

 

...What if it was a whole division - FFV (Ford Fleet Vehicles) - all factory direct, with the occasional odd sale to the private individual who marches to a different drummer? FFV Towncar, FFV Police Cruiser, etc..... As has been said many times, "All the tooling's paid for." Occasionally you see an old Checker that wasn't a taxi cab..... Anybody catch the "Overhaulin'" episode where they built the Checker Cab hot rod for the "New York New York" casino in Las Vegas?

 

 

Oh how I love the Checker. So beautiful and timeless in its utility. I would love to have one o' thems to tool around in for fun. I missed that Overhaulin' though. I can't watch it anymore - I told my wife she needs to get my '88 T-Bird on there... :angry:

 

As for an FFV division... you could argue that was Atlanta Assembly plant's role this year. Which is the key issue - the Taurus was damaged goods, hurting Ford's image with too high of a volume - and one car on one platform. We know Ford can't sustain an exclusive plant arrangement like that. An "FFV" would have to run flex - like the example of sneaking the occasional paid-tooling TC or what have you down a line that is still profitable, serving a niche and making a few extra bucks. As long as there were enough shared components to qash the overhead costs, it might be doable. I guess this is sorta like the idea of Flex, retro-fitted in reverse...?

[156n3rd]

As a former part-time limo driver, I think the current TC is cool. With a 5.4 engine and a new body style (what was that show car a couple of years back?), they would kick limo ass! GM has nothing like it and Ford could keep the faith by updating the. A fleet division is smart because everything about it makes sense. Who needs the '70's? When it came to luxo cars back then, ugly was the word in styling. BTW, the Gremlin was AMC's attempt to keep alive. Don't blame them for doing something with less than nothing. They DID AT LEAST try. :yup:

[goingincirclez]

BTW, the Gremlin was AMC's attempt to keep alive. Don't blame them for doing something with less than nothing. They DID AT LEAST try. :yup:

 

Oh, dare I say it: Don't look now, but the Gremlin, and even the Pacer, are on the cusp of "beyond-the-cult" "COOL" today. They're so damn quirky... even if they are ugly.

 

I miss AMC. They built a real stomper wagon before the end. Even if it was a 1971 Hornet in poor disguise...

[wescoent]

Definately will be a sad day when no more Town Cars are being built. But as it's been said, it's a relic of a bygone era, and is hurting Lincoln's image a lot more than it is helping it. Lincoln needs a big car, but the Town Car is not and never will be that vehicle.

 

I think a redesigned Grand Marquis pushed upmarket will fill the Town Car's role nicely to make room for a Lincoln flagship worthy of the name.

[Hemiman]

Oh how I love the Checker. So beautiful and timeless in its utility. I would love to have one o' thems to tool around in for fun. I missed that Overhaulin' though. I can't watch it anymore - I told my wife she needs to get my '88 T-Bird on there... :angry:

 

 

There was some talk about the Checker Marathon coming back. The car is to be produced by AM General using GM truck drivetrain and suspension components. They were studying weather they could have all the body stampings, (from the original A-11 & A-12 tooling) made in China and shipped to AM General in Indiana for assembly. Goal is to capture the Cab and Livery market that has been abandoned by the big 2.5. Car is to have a 12 yr life cycle with factory rebuilds @ 500K mile intervals. Also is going to feature GM/Isuzu diesel power.

Last date I saw was 2007 for availibility, but it's fallen off the net as of late.

 

I may be a little off on some of these details, as I posted it from memory.

[RichardJensen]

Ford has hardly abandoned the cab market.

 

They make a CV especially for cabbies.

 

https://www.fleet.ford.com/showroom/2007fle...7-crviccomm.asp

 

All you need to do is put on the stickers & medallion, and the divider, if you want one.

 

Check out what the fleet operator in this Bold Moves doc. has to say about Ford and his dealer:

 

http://www.fordboldmoves.com/episode.aspx?...9c-778095fcc536

 

Ford hasn't abandoned the livery market either:

 

https://www.fleet.ford.com/showroom/special...ery_Funeral.asp

 

You can buy Town Car & Navigator limousines directly from Ford.

 

I remember your posting about the AM General "checker", and view it with a certain jaundiced eye, based on the requirement that the NYC T&LC waive the 3 year maximum service life, and a diesel powertrain just isn't going to happen at all, not with emissions regs what they are.

 

Not to mention the initial investment is pretty substantial for one of these things, and since most of the fleet operators and individual drivers have to go in debt just to buy the medallion, I'm guessing they don't want to also go in debt to buy a $100k+ extra super durable cab.

Edited September 14, 2006 by RichardJensen

[156n3rd]

Oh, dare I say it: Don't look now, but the Gremlin, and even the Pacer, are on the cusp of "beyond-the-cult" "COOL" today. They're so damn quirky... even if they are ugly.

 

I miss AMC. They built a real stomper wagon before the end. Even if it was a 1971 Hornet in poor disguise...

I Loved my '66 Marlin with it's 327/270hp wee8. It was ugly, awesome and weird. I also loved my '72 Javelin SST with the reliable 258 I-6. AMC was poor and had no QC. That's what killed them. My brother had a '74 Gremlin (yellow) and a '76 Pacer (blue-green), he loved them both and cracked up each of them. He went to an old '64 American for free after the accident.

 

Ford has hardly abandoned the cab market.

 

They make a CV especially for cabbies.

 

https://www.fleet.ford.com/showroom/2007fle...7-crviccomm.asp

 

All you need to do is put on the stickers & medallion, and the divider, if you want one.

 

Check out what the fleet operator in this Bold Moves doc. has to say about Ford and his dealer:

 

http://www.fordboldmoves.com/episode.aspx?...9c-778095fcc536

 

Ford hasn't abandoned the livery market either:

 

https://www.fleet.ford.com/showroom/special...ery_Funeral.asp

 

You can buy Town Car & Navigator limousines directly from Ford.

 

I remember your posting about the AM General "checker", and view it with a certain jaundiced eye, based on the requirement that the NYC T&LC waive the 3 year maximum service life, and a diesel powertrain just isn't going to happen at all, not with emissions regs what they are.

 

Not to mention the initial investment is pretty substantial for one of these things, and since most of the fleet operators and individual drivers have to go in debt just to buy the medallion, I'm guessing they don't want to also go in debt to buy a $100k+ extra super durable cab.

 

Why is it always the same thing being said about diesles anyway? Why are they so out of the question when many light duty trucls and some cars already have them here? Checker is someone's dream of trying to revive the past and building a car to kill the giants. Not gonna happen. Ford should keep the TC going and I'm sure they will. The GM would not work as it's replacement, it's not in the same class.

Edited September 14, 2006 by 156n3rd

[RichardJensen]

Why is it always the same thing being said about diesles anyway? Why are they so out of the question when many light duty trucls and some cars already have them here?

NOx emissions. I've said it before, I'll say it again. NOx emissions. NOx emissions NOx emissions NOx emission.

 

No diesel technology for sale in the U.S. meets EPA regs that will be implemented a few years down the line for passenger cars and half-ton trucks.

[KinneticBrian]

Word on this forum all over the place is that the CV/GM are supposed to be redone in 2009 to run then through 2012 at least. Think on this - Ford builds enough current TC's for a 2008 supply, spend that time tooling a 2009 reskin at STAP, then bring the 2009 out early.

 

The sad fact for the Town Car is that the current model is ungainly, bulbous and otherwise unattractive. Compared to the Cadillac DTS, the Town Car looks as bad as the 1990-1997 Town Car made the 1993-1996 Fleetwood Brougham look.

 

There's a reason why the number of Town Cars is higher in livery service than DTS's - dependability. I am in the Funeral Industry and can attest to Cadillac's spotty at best reliability. Our Limos have a mind of their own from time to time and every hearse of the 6 we have has a front end vibration that feels like a tire out of balance. I recently drove a new Lincoln hearse from a neighboring firm and there was no comparison - rock solid.

 

As to the Chrysler 300 - DCX can forget it - this car and moreover the Chrysler brand will never have the prestige or respect to stand with Cadillac or Lincoln. The days of the lovely Newports and New Yorkers of the '70's ensure that. As to a stretch GM taking the TC's place? No way - and for the same reason.

 

For what it's worth - I too think a law should be passed banning the fake convertible tops and gold packages. My last Cadillac had a fake convertible top when I bought it - You should have seen the look on the dealer's face when I told them to tear it off and throw it away - which they did. They thought it made the car look so nice... Sad really...

[Hemiman]

I remember your posting about the AM General "checker", and view it with a certain jaundiced eye, based on the requirement that the NYC T&LC waive the 3 year maximum service life, and a diesel powertrain just isn't going to happen at all, not with emissions regs what they are.

 

Not to mention the initial investment is pretty substantial for one of these things, and since most of the fleet operators and individual drivers have to go in debt just to buy the medallion, I'm guessing they don't want to also go in debt to buy a $100k+ extra super durable cab.

 

 

IIRC, the deal was that the factory rebuild would be accepted as "new" by NYC T&LC. Cost of the rebuid was to be 1/3rd cost of new. Parts were to be replaced per T&LC spec whether needed or not. Cost new for 2007 was to be in the 40-45K range, about what they were charging the Military for HUMMERS in the 90's

 

Also I think they were trying to get it classified as a bus to get around the diesel emissions issues.

 

Can't find anything on the web any more, so AMG may have abandoned the idea.

[630land]

Well, tomorrow morning at 7am Eastern, we find out the fate of the TC [and others] with the 'New New Way Forward Plan'.

[matthewq4b]

NOx emissions. I've said it before, I'll say it again. NOx emissions. NOx emissions NOx emissions NOx emission.

 

No diesel technology for sale in the U.S. meets EPA regs that will be implemented a few years down the line for passenger cars and half-ton trucks.

 

 

That may change Richard the feds may lossen the regs. Several States have passed or are in the prosses of mandating Bio 5 diesel, Washington state passed in to law this spring that all road diesel sold there be Bio 5.

To boot Bio mix diesel is cheaper than conventional diesel. The Higher the mix the lower the cost

 

Bio mix puts out less NOx than conventional Diesel. Even mixing it as little as 5% can make a big reduction in NOx.

 

There is a big push right now in several states to mandate bio mixed diesel. If a person is looking for ground floor investment any of the Bio diesel producers might be some thing to look at. If Bio mixed diesel becomes mandated across most of the U.S these guys are going to make a killing.

 

Also in Canada they are using wheat for Ethanol production. The Feds here are looking to give fuel grade wheat an offcial title and grading. This will be a bonus to farmers whose crops go south and are too poor for human or animal consumtion, and currently have to either dispose of or just let it rot in the feilds.

 

Husky Oil is the force behind this push as they are Canada's largest ethanol producer and are having a hard time getting enough Bio feed stock.

 

With this new wheat grade they are hoping that farmers on marginal land that will not support food or feed grade wheat will grow Fuel grade wheat.

 

Matthew

[RichardJensen]

Was just reading about bio diesel today at lunch.

 

Article didn't say anything about reduced NOx emissions, which--in any event--would need to be reduced to 1/6th of proposed Euro standards in order to meet the SULEV II criteria that will be mandated a few years down the road. I would be surprised if 5% Bio diesel causes a 83% reduction in NOx production. In which case, you'd have to mandate 5% Bio at every single pump in the country.

 

But this article pointed out that the $1/gallon federal subsidy for bio diesel, along with a few other state incentives, drive the affordability of Bio-diesel.

 

Bio-diesel production in place and under construction has the capacity to consume about 20% of the country's total average soybean crop, which is pretty significant.

 

Ironically, the production of distillers grain feedstock from ethanol plants is driving down the price of soybeans, which adds another interesting wrinkle to this.

 

Fuel grade wheat may be a logical alternative to the ethanol from cellulose research currently under way.

[matthewq4b]

Was just reading about bio diesel today at lunch.

 

Article didn't say anything about reduced NOx emissions, which--in any event--would need to be reduced to 1/6th of proposed Euro standards in order to meet the SULEV II criteria that will be mandated a few years down the road. I would be surprised if 5% Bio diesel causes a 83% reduction in NOx production. In which case, you'd have to mandate 5% Bio at every single pump in the country.

 

But this article pointed out that the $1/gallon federal subsidy for bio diesel, along with a few other state incentives, drive the affordability of Bio-diesel.

 

Bio-diesel production in place and under construction has the capacity to consume about 20% of the country's total average soybean crop, which is pretty significant.

 

Ironically, the production of distillers grain feedstock from ethanol plants is driving down the price of soybeans, which adds another interesting wrinkle to this.

 

Fuel grade wheat may be a logical alternative to the ethanol from cellulose research currently under way.

 

Yes this is true,

 

But Bio-D can have many sources of feed stock. Soy beans Canola-rape seed ( apparantly gives the highest quality Bio-D and is one of the top yeilders per acre) Sunflower, Corn , Palm (gives the highest yeild per acre) Animal fats (again anouther high quality source)

 

 

Post Industrial and commercial wastes, And every ones fav waste sewage. The producers of these pay to to have it disposed of so this feed stock for the most part can be had for free.

 

Here is some thing to think about, a city that uses waste sewage to help power it's transit fleet, talk about shitty transit service lol Ya ok that was bad.

 

Soy beans are a small part of the mix. Some of the BioD feedstock-s, is-are capable of double cropping in some parts of the U.S. Canola especially could be triple cropped Plus Canola can be grown all the way up to the sub artic, there are farmers here that are able double crop canola in the right year even in our climate.

 

Also the stuff does not have to be virgin feed stock but can used in other primary functions first. So you get double useage outta the feed stock.

 

Of all Bio Fuels Bio-D has the best shot of making a big reduction on crude consupmtion.

 

Currently the biggest use of Diesel is In off road applications where the strick emmission standards do not apply.

Some of the dirtiest Disels out there are also the ones that consume the most diesel. Things such as earth moving equipment, stationary power genrators (hyd elec etc) and Locomotives. A good chunk of the Rail power out there is decades old. There are still many first gen units (1950's) in use and thousands and thousands of second gen stuff in use (1960's-70's), which for the most part have little or no emmision controls on them.

 

I think we are at the cusp of a huge explosion of Bio-D production.

Personally I would like to see it's first wide spread application to be in off road applications where the emmisions are the worst and the engines are most able to handle it with little or no modication.

You shoud the crud those old EMD-GMDD units can digest and call fuel.

 

 

Matthew

Edited September 15, 2006 by matthewq4b

[EMDEE]

Definately will be a sad day when no more Town Cars are being built. But as it's been said, it's a relic of a bygone era, and is hurting Lincoln's image a lot more than it is helping it. Lincoln needs a big car, but the Town Car is not and never will be that vehicle.

 

I think a redesigned Grand Marquis pushed upmarket will fill the Town Car's role nicely to make room for a Lincoln flagship worthy of the name.

I don't think many people really get what the role of TC is. Have you ever driven around New York for a few hours, or even the downtown sections of almost any of our larger cities? The TC owns those streets. I would bet that on any given day there are more Town Cars on the streets of Manhattan than any other single model car. And it's not just because the TC is a good buy, which it is. It is generally loved by the drivers and owners of the livery business, as well as by the customers who use their services. Is it the most luxurious car on the market? No, but would you really want to put a mega-luxurious car into livery service? Of course not. The TC has evolved just the right blend of reasonable luxury, unmatched durability, and more than adequate panache. No one is ever embarrassed to be seen in "driven" Town Car. On the contrary, it is the hallmark of luxury transportation, which is not the same thing as "luxury car" or luxury sports GT. The extended wheelbase version has the roomiest rear seat this side of a Maybach, with 6 inches more legroom than the standard TC, which itself has 4 inches more than the Crown Vic or GM. The long wheelbase Crown Vic only brings it up to the size of short wheelbase Town Car. The extended TC stands alone.

 

As for power, though it doesn't measure up to today's luxury cars, it has more horsepower than the BMW 7 series of just a decade or so ago when the German's biggest engine was 3.5 liter inline 6, which everyone thought was so mega-powerful. Today's top luxury cars have more horsepower than they can possibly us in way in places like Manhattan. I ride in these things as a passenger quite frequently and have never heard a driver complain about inadequate power. There's more than enough to hustle through city or freeway traffic, just not enough to impress the writers at the various car magazines.

 

If you haven't ridden in one lately, check it out. The interior has good quality leather, real wood (not plastic) and generally high quality dash. It's not a Lexus, but neither does the Lexus have the qualities desired by livery business. Perhaps most importantly, these things typically run for 500,000 miles with very low maintenance costs compared to any alternative. A lot of them get a quarter million miles on them in the first year and a half. No other car that has been tried in this kind of service has a durability record anything like it. I've ridden in some with over 800,000 miles. Some with 200,000 miles feel almost indistinguishable from new. (of course, some that aren't well maintained can feel like a wreck before 100,000, that's equally true of cars like the MB S class.)

 

So lighten up on the TC. Within it's niche, it has been a high water mark in American automotive design. If Ford really abandons it, it will be just one more incredibly stupid move by management, the kind of move that is rapidly killing the company. A relatively inexpensive new body and interior are all that's needed. If Ford had any brains, they'd do an update, perhaps adding IRS and one of the 300 HP larger block mod motors. All they need is sitting in the parts bin. It absolutely part of the Lincoln heritage and nothing will change that. They can kill it only at their own risk. Given their other idiot decisions in recent years, they will probably let it die and lost yet another market niche they owned.

 

No, I don't work for Ford or any automobile company. But I do have a lot of experience in the field as a customer of the companies and people who buy these cars.

[Anthony]

Production is moving to Canada. She's sticking around a while longer.

[RichardJensen]

Town Car's not going away. Tooling's being moved to STAP.