With Friends Like These

[RichardJensen]

Patrick Pelata, a Renault executive vice president, told journalists Monday that the synergies in the proposed alliance were "obvious." He also suggested that GM was not moving fast enough to keep up with its biggest rival, Toyota Motor Corp.

 

Pelata said he told Henderson, GM's CFO, that "if you delay solving your performance issues, it is just going to get worse" in the fight for market share with Toyota.

Nothing like bad-mouthing a potential business partner because they don't want to do things your way.

 

While the talks are expected to wrap up Oct. 15, the possibility exists that Ghosn could end the discussions sooner if GM disputes the potential savings of an alliance.

 

Ghosn was said to be determined to find out today whether Wagoner and GM are truly interested in joining the alliance that France's Renault and Japan's Nissan formed in 1999.

Wow. This guy is so full of himself, that if he can't have it all his way, he's going to walk away from the table.

 

This is the last guy in the world Ford should be doing business with.

 

http://detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?A.../609270381/1148

[ZanatWork]

I find Ghosn too similar to Nasser and others of that stripe. What Nissan needed was obvious...styling, powertrain help, more models, and cost control. While those basic needs were addressed, the side effects aren't all that flattering:

 

Altima and Maxima with a very good V6...and terrible torque steer.

 

A new Z car...that's heavy, and the nose is a styling tragedy.

 

A Sentra that went from class-leader to utterly forgotten.

 

Quality that still isn't ranked with Toyota and/or Honda.

 

Back to the Altima and Maxima...almost identical in price, styling, and features...what's the point?

 

 

I will say that Infiniti got much better lately...but not one vehicle in its lineup has styling that tells me "high end luxury car".

[old_fairmont_wagon]

Infiniti may have styling shortcomings, but, looking at their design philosophy, it was always more about substance than style. The infinitis delivered with their new designs. The G is stellar, more so with this latest update. The M from a few years ago was a holdover until the stretched platform from the G could be used to replace it, and the new M is running right up there with the big boys. The Q may be forgotten, and may soon be eliminated, but, it has always been a decent performer and competitior, just never advertised well and always a bit off the wall on styling. The FX may be run of the mill now, but when it came out, it was something different to be sure. And the Q was a cheap and profitable answer to the Navigator and Escalade.

 

Nissan let the Sentra rot on the vine. The Altima was head and shoulders above its competition when released on style and performance. The competition eventuall caught it and surpassed it. This latest iteration will correct all of the flaws of the original and bring it back into contention. The Maxima never did make sense to me. As released, it offered no more space than an Altima, a few key amenities that were eventually trickled down. The maxima as released was a mistake. The didn't bias it enough to the performance end of the spectrum (largely because they didn't have any more performance to give it). They should have waited one year to release the maxima, made it AWD only, and used the 4.0L VQ40 engine in it. Tuned to 275 hp and 280 lbs of torque, it would have ruled the roost for its segment in terms of performance and driving excitement for years.

 

The Z as it exists, is exactly what it needed to be. What hampered it in the US market was one vehicle, the mustang. It could always be had with more straight line performance for less money and the rumble of a V8. Had Nissan released the 450Z that they prototyped a few times, with their VK45 from the Q45 and M45, things would have been vastly different. Stickering for $35K easily, it would have been the performance bargain of the decade and still made money. It would have had more straight line performance than the contemporary Mach 1 mustang, been better in the twisties, and generally offer a level of fit and finish that wasn't available in the older mustang body. The new mustang would have given it a run for its money, and it would have never touched the cobra stock, but, the Cobra would also be pricier.

 

But, Nissan was working with limited resources, like Ford is now, and they did some marvelous things.

[Biker16]

Nothing like bad-mouthing a potential business partner because they don't want to do things your way.

Wow. This guy is so full of himself, that if he can't have it all his way, he's going to walk away from the table.

 

This is the last guy in the world Ford should be doing business with.

 

http://detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?A.../609270381/1148

what if he is right?

 

and GM continues doing what they have been doing,

[RichardJensen]

what if he is right?

 

and GM continues doing what they have been doing,

There's a time and a place.

 

When you're negotiating a business agreement, it's bad form to use the media to pressure your prospective business partner. It suggests that you are not interested in what is good for both parties, as no good is ever served by complaining to the public at large, about perceived intransigence on the part of your peers.

 

Or do you think that the best way to come to an agreement with your wife on something, is to discuss the matter with your friends?

 

People are people and personal relationships are no different than business deals between major corporations Regardless of what synergies are possible, it is obvious that they are not of primary concern to Ghosn. If his primary motive was to work with GM, he'd keep his mouth shut, and his lieutenant wouldn't've had leave to flap HIS yap in front of the press.

 

Ghosn's conduct, and this Pelata guy's, means the same thing in this forum, as it means when you complain about your wife, gf, significant other, or fishing buddy, to people at large. It means that you are not interested in coming to an agreement. You are interested being told you are right.

Edited September 27, 2006 by RichardJensen

[630land]

The new 07 Altima has no torque steer, and has gotten good reviews for its CVT. Same with the Maxima. SO that arguement is dead.

 

Those that don't "get it" with Nissan never will, and there are enough who do. They aren't a be all car brand like bland Toyo.

 

Maybe the Sentra 'rotted', but it sold well for an "old car". Some maybe want features and mileage and not 'buzz' for trendy bitches. New one is in a month so the arguement that it's old is moot.

[Roadrunner]

Nissan let the Sentra rot on the vine.

 

I agree - I remember in 2000 I was impressed with the Sentra and thought to myself, "you know, I would buy one of those - what a good-looking car," especially in the mid-tan color.

 

I saw one coming towards me on the road the other day and said, "that looks horribly outdated." It is the design language that needs to be changed. The design language has been surpassed by its competitors. The design language reminds me of the last-generation Hyundais and Kias, such as the Accent and its Kia stablemate.

 

It may be that the design language is too "round" and it makes the car not look as solid as it used to.

 

The first-gen Hyundai Tiburon also, surprisingly, looks outdated to me as well now.

 

Maybe the Sentra 'rotted', but it sold well for an "old car". Some maybe want features and mileage and not 'buzz' for trendy bitches. New one is in a month so the arguement that it's old is moot.

 

The point here, I suppose, is that the Sentra used to be on a four-year update cycle, but the current generation Sentra being replaced was sold for six years and it got dated. A new one should have come around 2004.

 

We complain that the Focus is outdated (it's been outdated since 2005, despite the refresh), but the Sentra was no better.

Edited September 28, 2006 by Roadrunner

[Biker16]

There's a time and a place.

 

When you're negotiating a business agreement, it's bad form to use the media to pressure your prospective business partner. It suggests that you are not interested in what is good for both parties, as no good is ever served by complaining to the public at large, about perceived intransigence on the part of your peers.

 

Or do you think that the best way to come to an agreement with your wife on something, is to discuss the matter with your friends?

 

People are people and personal relationships are no different than business deals between major corporations Regardless of what synergies are possible, it is obvious that they are not of primary concern to Ghosn. If his primary motive was to work with GM, he'd keep his mouth shut, and his lieutenant wouldn't've had leave to flap HIS yap in front of the press.

 

Ghosn's conduct, and this Pelata guy's, means the same thing in this forum, as it means when you complain about your wife, gf, significant other, or fishing buddy, to people at large. It means that you are not interested in coming to an agreement. You are interested being told you are right.

Rchard Gm is not serious, Carlos knows this.

 

The real pressure is not from the media but from kerkorian.

[RichardJensen]

Rchard Gm is not serious, Carlos knows this.

 

The real pressure is not from the media but from kerkorian.

Biker, Carlos is not serious, and GM knows this.

 

If Carlos were serious about finding a way for this to work for BOTH companies, he wouldn't've taken his case to the media.

 

In case you missed the point, getting the media involved to pressure GM is not Carlos' game. Getting the media involved so he can read about how he's right in the trade pubs, is.

[igor]

Edmunds sales predictions for September:

 

Adjusted Unadjusted

 

Chrysler -13.7% -10.3%

Ford 1.2% 5.2%

GM 0.1% 4.2%

Honda 4.7% 8.9%

Nissan -10.6% -7.0%

Toyota 15.4% 20.0%

 

Industry 0.1% 4.1%

 

I hope these will be sufficient arguments for Wagoner to fight off the failing golden child ..

 

PS: note Ford is predicted to have even larger gain than GM this month.. and DCX is down in the crapper.

 

Igor

[ZanatWork]

I wonder where Ford's making the gains? CD3s, maybe Foci (which would likely send sixcav into apoplexy)...but where else?

Edited September 29, 2006 by ZanatWork

[RichardJensen]

I wonder where Ford's making the gains? CD3s, maybe Foci (which would likely send sixcav into apoplexy)...but where else?

A normal month, vs. a hangover of a last September, since employee pricing carried through August last year, would be sufficient to register gains.

[igor]

I wonder where Ford's making the gains? CD3s, maybe Foci (which would likely send sixcav into apoplexy)...but where else?

 

with faling gas prices, edmunds expects some gains in the small to medium SUV's and trucks ... not large SUV's though.

 

http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2006/09/28/023439.html

 

Igor

Edited September 29, 2006 by igor

[Biker16]

Biker, Carlos is not serious, and GM knows this.

 

If Carlos were serious about finding a way for this to work for BOTH companies, he wouldn't've taken his case to the media.

 

In case you missed the point, getting the media involved to pressure GM is not Carlos' game. Getting the media involved so he can read about how he's right in the trade pubs, is.

Is there a ay for bth companies to work together.

 

There are intractable issues on both side it appears.

 

This whole discussion is Forced by kerkorian, wagoner like all people in power does not want to conseed it.

 

 

the big three have alot of bad habits, that need to be broke. companies like Gm and Ford do not change without something forcing them to change. Ghosn Is right when he says, Toyota is the real threat.

 

whether PSA is playing hardball,is no reason not to listen. PSA has it'sown problems, and this is why they are looking for a partner, right now. Can both companies benifit from each other? and how many poison pills will the Former management of GM put in to hold on to thier jobs.

 

GM reportedly wants billions of dollars from PSA just to join.

 

Do we need conslidation thru, alliances or thru attrition?

 

 

c

[RichardJensen]

Is there a ay for bth companies to work together.

 

There are intractable issues on both side it appears.

 

This whole discussion is Forced by kerkorian, wagoner like all people in power does not want to conseed it.

the big three have alot of bad habits, that need to be broke. companies like Gm and Ford do not change without something forcing them to change. Ghosn Is right when he says, Toyota is the real threat.

 

whether PSA is playing hardball,is no reason not to listen. PSA has it'sown problems, and this is why they are looking for a partner, right now. Can both companies benifit from each other? and how many poison pills will the Former management of GM put in to hold on to thier jobs.

 

GM reportedly wants billions of dollars from PSA just to join.

 

Do we need conslidation thru, alliances or thru attrition?

c

1) PSA is a different company. This is Renault/Nissan.

 

2) As for Renault playing hardball being no reason not to listen, I say it's sufficient reason not to listen. Who do you think GM is going to have to deal with day in and day out if they go through with this? The same chucklehead who sees nothing wrong with massaging his ego by taking his case to the public at large.

[Biker16]

1) PSA is a different company. This is Renault/Nissan.

 

2) As for Renault playing hardball being no reason not to listen, I say it's sufficient reason not to listen. Who do you think GM is going to have to deal with day in and day out if they go through with this? The same chucklehead who sees nothing wrong with massaging his ego by taking his case to the public at large.

 

"General Motors does not need a partner to complete its recovery, CEO Rick Wagoner said today."

 

Richard is this conducive to creating this alliance?

 

GM don't want it.

 

IT doesn't really matter what Renault says. GM don't want it.

[RichardJensen]

"General Motors does not need a partner to complete its recovery, CEO Rick Wagoner said today."

 

Richard is this conducive to creating this alliance?

 

GM don't want it.

 

IT doesn't really matter what Renault says. GM don't want it.

Who spoke first?

 

Apparently GM walked into this deal looking at what could be done with a few 4-cylinder engines, and I believe the Epsilon platform, and a few other things.

 

Again, according to what's been leaked to the press, GM wanted to see what could be done with a much smaller group of engines and architectures

 

Renault, apparently wanted to do everything all at once.

 

Then, when GM balked, Ghosn unleashed a hound to get up in front of the press, and talk about how if this doesn't work, Toyota's going to overrun the U.S., and start killing babies, or something.

 

AFTER Ghosn and Pelata both flapped their yaps in public, and AFTER Kerkorian also stormed the public with an SEC filing saying that he wants to buy another 6M GM shares, Wagoner released a public comment saying, effectively, that a partnership with Renault is NOT a make or break deal.

 

If you review what's happened thus far, it's hard to fault GM for taking a reasoned approach to this, of the "let's see if this works on a small scale" variety.

 

I mean, I certainly found their side of the argument ('let's not jump into things') to be far more persuasive than Ghosn's nothing-but-upside 10 billion dollar savings truckload of sailboat fuel.