davdog: My reply on an autoworker's $$ worth

[tcap for now]

i wish i could say i was treated fairly....NOT,

being union is a good thing, it is not perfect.

buying foreign pieces of shit is not perfect either! the 'perceived' value is something the media has created

if you look further then this you will see the truth.

 

i still think its the uaw's intent for all of us to be treated fair at work. but the system is flawed i do agree.

 

 

its my opinion 2 things can kill the uaw and other unions.

1. if all employers start offering decent wages, benefits, fair treatment, job security, and some of the benefits the unions offer without being union.

 

2. if the uaw continues to run the way they are. they need to stop and look at their own system. while we voted some of them into office there are too many appointed positions. that makes them all friends intead of co-workers working toward a common goal with different opinions. as well as other issues.

[sept68]

Perceived value. The first word being the key word there.

 

Why should we care where profits go? Well, as an American taxpayer, I care where my tax money goes and I don't want it going to foreign entities. So what if they create 2000 jobs? Billions go over seas and we're OK with that tradeoff?

 

The company is offering buyouts to adjust capacity to market share, not because the contract is going to lead to insolvency. Again , our wages are not the problem! Market share and product offering are along with some very poor past manglement decisions.

 

What American tax monies are going to foreign entities? Local municipalities are loosing out by not taxing but thats it. Corporations today are multinational. Just like Ford. Who do you think taxes the profits of Ford of Mexico? Toyota North America? Toyota still has to report profits generated here to the feds.

 

Ford can adjust to market share without buyouts. You think Billy did this out of the goodness of his heart? If that were the case, the salaried work force would have be offered an equally generous package. Ford had to negotiate a buyout offer due to contractual obligations. Don't think for a second Ford is not going to go after major labor efficiencies not related to market share stabilization. The "left behinds" are going to be pushed for increased output per individual.

 

Wages are not the problem. Wages are a fixed cost. When one manufacture has lower fixed costs than another manufacture the former has an advantage. Ford has been playing with the variable cost for some time. Eventually using the lowest cost components and materials catches up with you. Suppliers are no bidding contracts in record numbers. The company is now paying the piper. Like davdog said -- Ford is broken.

 

I agree its all managements fault. I am not blaming unionization. I am saying that the UAW must make adjustments too so the company can survive. Thousands of retirees are counting on you.

[dark270]

i still think its the uaw's intent for all of us to be treated fair at work. but the system is flawed i do agree.

 

 

its my opinion 2 things can kill the uaw and other unions.

1. if all employers start offering decent wages, benefits, fair treatment, job security, and some of the benefits the unions offer without being union.

 

2. if the uaw continues to run the way they are. they need to stop and look at their own system. while we voted some of them into office there are too many appointed positions. that makes them all friends intead of co-workers working toward a common goal with different opinions. as well as other issues.

 

 

EXACTLY, i totally agree, should be election for EVERYONE...no appointments

[Trimdingman]

I started off at about $5.00 an hour. New hires were tripping over each other trying to get out the door. The wages that we are paid now are necessary to keep a stable work force, and sell a few new cars to employees. That is sort of like planting seeds in middle class neighbourhoods, and shopping malls. A worker with one year's experience or more (up to a point) is worth nearly double what a new worker is worth. If everyone is quitting after a few months, it would be cheaper in the long run to pay higher wages.

[sept68]

this country is in a race to the bottom. soon all we will be is a service country with no products to offer. its already starting. a factory closes and 2000 good paying jobs go away. a shopping center opens in its place that employs 4000 people making minimum wage with no benefits. they say job growth is up. but those 4000 people cant afford much so they look to cheaper products. cheaper because the factory that made the products went to china for cheap labor to increase profit. soon they will have to lower their profits to lower prices because there wont be enough people in this country that can afford it.

 

 

Is this a race to the bottom or are we just becoming stagnant? Thinking nobody can touch us no matter how complacent we become. Manufacturing has to evolve to keep a comparative advantage. Shops of the future will have few but higher skilled workers. Days of the company town are over. The middle class is not going away. We are going to adapt to the changing environment and move on with our lives. I predict a higher percentage of Ford cast offs will succeed than fail.

 

I started off at about $5.00 an hour. New hires were tripping over each other trying to get out the door. The wages that we are paid now are necessary to keep a stable work force, and sell a few new cars to employees. That is sort of like planting seeds in middle class neighbourhoods, and shopping malls. A worker with one year's experience or more (up to a point) is worth nearly double what a new worker is worth. If everyone is quitting after a few months, it would be cheaper in the long run to pay higher wages.

 

That's the million dollar question. What wage does Ford have to pay in order to maintain a stable work force? Would you still work for Ford if they paid you two bucks per hour less? $3? $5? Many would not like it but they wouldn't walk off the job either.

[tcap for now]

Is this a race to the bottom or are we just becoming stagnant? Thinking nobody can touch us no matter how complacent we become. Manufacturing has to evolve to keep a comparative advantage. Shops of the future will have few but higher skilled workers. Days of the company town are over. The middle class is not going away. We are going to adapt to the changing environment and move on with our lives. I predict a higher percentage of Ford cast offs will succeed than fail.

That's the million dollar question. What wage does Ford have to pay in order to maintain a stable work force? Would you still work for Ford if they paid you two bucks per hour less? $3? $5? Many would not like it but they wouldn't walk off the job either.

 

 

i agree complacency has become a problem from the top down. manufacturing and the union do need to change. but corporate america seriously needs to look to futuer. not just right now profits. the middle class isnt going away, but the lower class is growing at fast pace. the middle class is shrinking.

 

and i likely would stay for the benefits. but i definately wouldnt be happy. especially with what the corporate execs make. they are the ones who put ford in the position they are in now. it was not the uaw or us on the line. there are way too many people in upper management and in corporate. and some of them make massive salaries. nasser's salary alone could have produced a new model. for has sank tons of money into jaguar. and for what? does that help fords image? that was spending that could have upgraded our plants.

 

why should we take a cut in pay and benefits while the top brass throw money away? they get rich and we take the hit when profits are down. im not the one that left the ranger pretty much the same for 13 years. why should a 1993 ranger look a lot like a 2006? is it good for sales to offer old models? same goes for the taurus, crown vic and freestar. and the focus is looking like it will go that way too, as well as others.

 

ford should have started their way forward with their designers and marketing team. then eliminated waste in the corporate offices. then to the plants.

[gbg49229]

Blowfish--Question>>>Which 3rd world country builds autos? Be careful of your answer.

SOON IT WILL BE U.S.A.

[289hipo]

I really don't mean to be a smart ass on here but its the government that is screwing the middle class. Yes the middle class is shrinking. You have lobbyists on Capitol Hill who influence our law makers to vote the way the multinational companies want them toso they can get away with just about anything they want. Your healthcare benefits being cut for one. Most CEO's pension plans, Healthcare, Salaries ect. are in the MILLIONS even when the companies bottom line is negative. Out of 275 companies surveyed in the U.S. 80 paid no income tax due to tax havens and additional tax breaks passed by the current administration. With the outsourcing of American Jobs to the overseas market the following jobs they say should be in high demand in the next decade: Waiter & Waitress, Janitors & cleaners, Food prep. Nursing aides, orderlies & attendants, Cashiers, Customer-service reps. Retail salespersons, Registered Nurses { Senator in Texas wants to import 90,000 Nurses for cheaper wages and benefits} You get the picture. It starts at the top People let the government know you are not going to take it anymore.

[skeptic]

i wish i could say i was treated fairly....NOT,

being union is a good thing, it is not perfect.

buying foreign pieces of shit is not perfect either! the 'perceived' value is something the media has created

if you look further then this you will see the truth.

Is a Ford Fusion built in Mexico a foreign piece of shit or is a Honda built in the United States a foreign piece of shit ?I would say the shit is the Fusion since it does not put food on the table of American workers.

[dark270]

Is a Ford Fusion built in Mexico a foreign piece of shit or is a Honda built in the United States a foreign piece of shit ?I would say the shit is the Fusion since it does not put food on the table of American workers.

 

 

yeah the fusion sucks......but is that honda really 100% built in the U.S.?

[tcap for now]

I really don't mean to be a smart ass on here but its the government that is screwing the middle class. Yes the middle class is shrinking. You have lobbyists on Capitol Hill who influence our law makers to vote the way the multinational companies want them toso they can get away with just about anything they want. Your healthcare benefits being cut for one. Most CEO's pension plans, Healthcare, Salaries ect. are in the MILLIONS even when the companies bottom line is negative. Out of 275 companies surveyed in the U.S. 80 paid no income tax due to tax havens and additional tax breaks passed by the current administration. With the outsourcing of American Jobs to the overseas market the following jobs they say should be in high demand in the next decade: Waiter & Waitress, Janitors & cleaners, Food prep. Nursing aides, orderlies & attendants, Cashiers, Customer-service reps. Retail salespersons, Registered Nurses { Senator in Texas wants to import 90,000 Nurses for cheaper wages and benefits} You get the picture. It starts at the top People let the government know you are not going to take it anymore.

 

 

another well said post.

[skeptic]

yeah the fusion sucks......but is that honda really 100% built in the U.S.?

The important thing to me is that is built by american hands on American soil.

[Twincam Harley]

What American tax monies are going to foreign entities? Local municipalities are loosing out by not taxing but thats it.

 

Well, Mississippi is giving away state funding (aka taxpayer dollars) for the new Nissan plant. Story Link

 

"Like the bulldozers now flattening several square miles of central Mississippi, this state has allowed nothing to stop its effort to acquire a huge Nissan truck factory and finally take its place in the international economy.

 

It outbid every other competing state for the plant with the largest package of tax-financed incentives ever offered to an automaker in the United States, estimated at more than $400 million in spending and tax rebates. As part of the package, Mississippi agreed to pay for an $80 million job-training program for Nissan workers and to build the factory's $17 million vehicle-preparation building. It promised $60 million in new and improved roads, to be built far faster than most state roads. It even allowed Nissan executives to use a state plane for several months.

 

Most significant, it agreed to acquire more than 1,500 acres Nissan wanted -- nearly 2.5 square miles -- using the state's power of eminent domain, if necessary, to move out homeowners living on the site near this small town of 10,000, about 15 miles north of Jackson."

 

So, $400 million to a Japanese company to bring some jobs to their state, only so a select few get to work there while every other taxpayer in the state gets to foot the bill. Great tradeoff! Meanwhile, all the profits go back to Japan. I guess Toyota, Nissan, Honda, etc. are all payback for Hiroshima and Nagasaki and our governement is helping foot the bill so our decent paying manufacturing jobs can go bye-bye.

 

Pretty soon this country will realize that it's been a huge msitake to allow all of these foreign corporations to buy up our country and move their operations here. Unfortunately it will be too late to do anything about it.

 

 

Sounds exactly like my 2003 Focus.

 

You mean Consumer Reports was wrong in rating the Focus a "Best Buy"?

[skeptic]

Well, Mississippi is giving away state funding (aka taxpayer dollars) for the new Nissan plant. Story Link

 

"Like the bulldozers now flattening several square miles of central Mississippi, this state has allowed nothing to stop its effort to acquire a huge Nissan truck factory and finally take its place in the international economy.

 

It outbid every other competing state for the plant with the largest package of tax-financed incentives ever offered to an automaker in the United States, estimated at more than $400 million in spending and tax rebates. As part of the package, Mississippi agreed to pay for an $80 million job-training program for Nissan workers and to build the factory's $17 million vehicle-preparation building. It promised $60 million in new and improved roads, to be built far faster than most state roads. It even allowed Nissan executives to use a state plane for several months.

 

Most significant, it agreed to acquire more than 1,500 acres Nissan wanted -- nearly 2.5 square miles -- using the state's power of eminent domain, if necessary, to move out homeowners living on the site near this small town of 10,000, about 15 miles north of Jackson."

 

So, $400 million to a Japanese company to bring some jobs to their state, only so a select few get to work there while every other taxpayer in the state gets to foot the bill. Great tradeoff! Meanwhile, all the profits go back to Japan. I guess Toyota, Nissan, Honda, etc. are all payback for Hiroshima and Nagasaki and our governement is helping foot the bill so our decent paying manufacturing jobs can go bye-bye.

 

Pretty soon this country will realize that it's been a huge msitake to allow all of these foreign corporations to buy up our country and move their operations here. Unfortunately it will be too late to do anything about it.

You mean Consumer Reports was wrong in rating the Focus a "Best Buy"?

Ford ,General Motors,And Chrysler do nothing without extracting tax concessions from local and state governments and they still close plants.They suck the lifeblood of taxpayers as much if not more than the Japanesse.Reality is more cars will be built in America by the Japanesse than the so called big 3.

[skeptic]

Ford ,General Motors,And Chrysler do nothing without extracting tax concessions from local and state governments and they still close plants.They suck the lifeblood of taxpayers as much if not more than the Japanesse.Reality is more cars will be built in America by the Japanesse than the so called big 3.

American workers are not inferior to anyone in the wold.The reason the big 3 are heading for bankruptcy is management.Our American managment is paid 10 to 20 times that of Japanesse managers but they only have half their brain power.Just because your family owns the company does not qualify you to run it.Just because you chopped Boeing in half by outsourcing does not qualify you to save Ford.

[WHATwhat]

Sounds exactly like my 2003 Focus.

mine too!!!

 

And i'm just wondering how everyone feels about the ach plants also deserving these outragous wages?????

[289hipo]

I think some of you need to re read or read the the Declaration of Independence, Bill of Rights and The Constitution Amendments you need to see just how far our government has strayed from them. This is not about anything other than Americans deserving a good decent job with benefits so that they can take can of their families. We are supossed to be the Great Nation. This is where the American Dream was available to all. Not anymore. Do you realize how many American jobs have been outsourced and sent over seas because of Fair Trade? In the last 5 years 5 million manufacturing jobs alone have been lost. We only manufacture 4% of our clothing in the U.S., jet engines and parts are imported, electronics, tools, the list goes on. These are things we used to manufacture. The things we export are waste, scrap, conductors {these go into electronics they build and ship back to us} some soybeans, corn ect. Soon if this is not stopped we will be totally dependent on Foreign Countries for our Daily needs. All of this so our Multinational Companies and their CEO's, & Big Government can have the money to do with what they want. China has been after our oil company for a while and Americans lobbying for them on Capitol hill have been pressuring Government to sell. I want to know why. Why do we have a Government who is supossed to be for the people, by the people, selling us out to foreign countries & why are American people following Government into a hole of debt to these countries {5 trillion}. On one last note I will close, this is also where your identity theft is coming from, your credit card companies, who had the laws changed on bankruptcy to suit them, now send all your information overseas to be processed because of cheap labor and those people in turn having been selling our information for money. But the credit card companies will sell you insurance for indentity theft protection for x amount of dollars. Makes sense being they are at fault to begin with.

[napfriend]

Well, Mississippi is giving away state funding (aka taxpayer dollars) for the new Nissan plant. Story Link

 

"Like the bulldozers now flattening several square miles of central Mississippi, this state has allowed nothing to stop its effort to acquire a huge Nissan truck factory and finally take its place in the international economy.

 

It outbid every other competing state for the plant with the largest package of tax-financed incentives ever offered to an automaker in the United States, estimated at more than $400 million in spending and tax rebates. As part of the package, Mississippi agreed to pay for an $80 million job-training program for Nissan workers and to build the factory's $17 million vehicle-preparation building. It promised $60 million in new and improved roads, to be built far faster than most state roads. It even allowed Nissan executives to use a state plane for several months.

 

Most significant, it agreed to acquire more than 1,500 acres Nissan wanted -- nearly 2.5 square miles -- using the state's power of eminent domain, if necessary, to move out homeowners living on the site near this small town of 10,000, about 15 miles north of Jackson."

 

So, $400 million to a Japanese company to bring some jobs to their state, only so a select few get to work there while every other taxpayer in the state gets to foot the bill. Great tradeoff! Meanwhile, all the profits go back to Japan. I guess Toyota, Nissan, Honda, etc. are all payback for Hiroshima and Nagasaki and our governement is helping foot the bill so our decent paying manufacturing jobs can go bye-bye.

 

Pretty soon this country will realize that it's been a huge msitake to allow all of these foreign corporations to buy up our country and move their operations here. Unfortunately it will be too late to do anything about it.

You mean Consumer Reports was wrong in rating the Focus a "Best Buy"?

didn't the state of Michigan just give Ford a chunk of money (tax payers) for a transmission plant? little hypocrisy here I think.

[dark270]

The important thing to me is that is built by american hands on American soil.

 

 

that still did not answer the question....

the fusion is 44% built in the u.s. does that mean it is american ??

 

WTF ?

[thegunslinger]

OK so I figure you want a rebuttal here

 

1. You have zero knowledge of what an autoworker is worth also, but those that are taking the buyouts will be able to tell you soon. A good indication would be what the temps are lining up to get paid.

 

2. There are a lot of tough jobs out there but you seem to believe that yours is the toughest. I’ll bet there are a lot of guys out there that would beg to differ. I’d say 40 percent of the workforce probably believes there job is the toughest, and another 40 percent who believe there job is mentally the toughest. Welcome to the club.

 

3. People get treated like shit at a lot of jobs; the best thing to do is get another job.

 

4. You’re kidding me with this dedicated crap right? Let’s see how dedicated these same folks are when these COAs come along and the pay gets adjusted in ‘07. I’d say they’re dedicated because they’re making twice what they’d make elsewhere, and your definition of dedicated differs from what most people’s definition of dedicated is. Needing to have a few hundred stand-bys at a plant every Monday doesn’t back up your dedication theory. Sure there are plenty of guys who are dedicated, but there are also a ton who aren’t, and you are all one big product.

1. Your ideals look great on paper, but, you still do not know what you are talking about in terms of what we go through, other than what you have read. Which proves my point in that you cannot make a TRULY informed decision on something unless you have been there. You have not.

2. I have been on the outside, as well as the inside of an auto plant setting. I cannot help what others may believe or say, I know what I have seen, heard, and read. From both sides of the equation. Again, you have not. Again proving that your opinion is uninformed through lack of experience.

3. As I said earlier, you are thinking as a corporate exec in the terms of dedication. I am very dedicated in everything I do. If some are not, as we all know they are, so be it. Many people do not fall into that catagory. We are not a product, rather, we are a force. A work force that builds a product. When this vision is lost, so is the company. People will not tolerate being treated as machines but so long.

4. I do not contest the fact that many including myself will not find a job that pays what Ford paid. What I contest is the fact that people do not think that we earned what we made. And spare us the whole "market wage" garbage you preach like an economics teacher. Because as intelligent as you seem to be, you are still out of your element when it comes to equating what we are worth, because you have not lived it. Just because we watch the NFL on TV does not give us the magical power to, with the utmost confidence, tell Michael Vick how to run a football. Nor can a non-autoworker who reads newpapers, stock reports, and watches Bloomberg, tell us that we are not worthy of our pay. No ones opinion, yours or mine, is going to change this fact.

You know solely from what you have heard, or read from various sources about the UAW wages. Do you think that if you read a medical book that you could be a Doctor? I did not think so either. Nor can you with any degree of validity, tell anyone who works in a plant that they do not earn their money.

Edited December 22, 2006 by thegunslinger

[dark270]

1. Your ideals look great on paper, but, you still do not know what you are talking about in terms of what we go through, other than what you have read. Which proves my point in that you cannot make a TRULY informed decision on something unless you have been there. You have not.

2. I have been on the outside, as well as the inside of an auto plant setting. I cannot help what others may believe or say, I know what I have seen, heard, and read. From both sides of the equation. Again, you have not. Again proving that your opinion is uninformed through lack of experience.

3. As I said earlier, you are thinking as a corporate exec in the terms of dedication. I am very dedicated in everything I do. If some are not, as we all know they are, so be it. Many people do not fall into that catagory. We are not a product, rather, we are a force. A work force that builds a product. When this vision is lost, so is the company. People will not tolerate being treated as machines but so long.

4. I do not contest the fact that many including myself will not find a job that pays what Ford paid. What I contest is the fact that people do not think that we earned what we made. And spare us the whole "market wage" garbage you preach like an economics teacher. Because as intelligent as you seem to be, you are still out of your element when it comes to equating what we are worth, because you have not lived it. Just because we watch the NFL on TV does not give us the magical power to, with the utmost confidence, tell Michael Vick how to run a football. Nor can a non-autoworker who reads newpapers, stock reports, and watches Bloomberg, tell us that we are not worthy of our pay. No ones opinion, yours or mine, is going to change this fact.

You know solely from what you have heard, or read from various sources about the UAW wages. Do you think that if you read a medical book that you could be a Doctor? I did not think so either. Nor can you with any degree of validity, tell anyone who works in a plant that they do not earn their money.

 

well said!

 

 

he will never understand.

[napfriend]

I guess you're also OK with our state governments supplying hundreds of millions of dollars in tax benefits to foreign entities only so the generated profits wind up leaving this country to the benefit of no one who paid for those tax breaks?

so now that we are getting these tax breaks, is that ok?

[Trimdingman]

At the end of a ten hour shift, there are SEVEN HUNDRED new cars that did not exist when the thousand or so workers walked through the plant doors at the start of the shift. That includes body build, paint, assembly, repairs, inspection, and shipping them out. No other industry on the planet can show that kind of productivity. Those cars didn't put themselves together. For instance, how huch would you pay for labor to have a power door glass and motor installed? An auto worker does it for about fifty cents. For another fifty cents, the door latch is sub-assembled and installed. Fifty more and the trim panel goes on and the door is finished. It takes skill and determination to do those jobs at the speed required. It also takes a big carrot.

Edited December 23, 2006 by Trimdingman

[davdog]

At the end of a ten hour shift, there are SEVEN HUNDRED new cars that did not exist when the thousand or so workers walked through the plant doors at the start of the shift. That includes body build, paint, assembly, repairs, inspection, and shipping them out. No other industry on the planet can show that kind of productivity. Those cars didn't put themselves together. For instance, how huch would you pay for labor to have a power door glass and motor installed? An auto worker does it for about fifty cents. For another fifty cents, the door latch is sub-assembled and installed. Fifty more and the trim panel goes on and the door is finished. It takes skill and determination to do those jobs at the speed required. It also takes a big carrot.

 

 

How do you really know what size carrot it takes?

[thegunslinger]

How do you really know what size carrot it takes?

We know more than you do when it comes to this. Because you have not walked the walk.