pcsario

Yes, we'll see in a couple of months, the '07 VDS was released last August. Nissan won't beat Ford, but it's not like RJ was in a position to brag about reliability, that's all. 3 years > 90 days

Back then, Nissan's problems were mainly due to their trucks and the Quest, built at a new plant with untrained workers. Their ratings will go up since they addressed that and the rest of their lineup has decent reliability.

They could've used Cuatitlan to build the Focus too. I just realized the other day it will have a yearly capacity of 500,000 units. Ford's Camacari plant in Brazil will also build the new Fiesta for SA, so there was plenty of capacity to build both.

Well according to JDP's VDS, Fords also have below average reliability. 3 years > 90 days Who buys Titans or Quests anyway?

At least Nissans don't burst into flames without notice. That's what I call peace of mind!

There's the condensed version for those with short attention spans.

Enlightening TG is back :shades:

LINK :reading:

But you can have consistency in the quality of the efforts. There's no consistency with FNA, it's either barely decent or a total disaster. (Flex Vs Fusion interior, Mustang Vs FuckUs exterior, etc.) Compare that to churning out winner after winner like FOE has done in & out. Mondeo, Focus, S-Max, Fiesta, etc. No matter if you like or don't like their styling, their execution is always solid (stampings, craftmanship, NVH, R&H, work from production designers, etc.) BTW don't get me started on design language consistency. Yes I have. The general concensus from reviewers (american reviewers, including average Joes judging by their buying habits), is that they consider FNA's idea of "what americans like" in anything but trucks, visually speaking, both wrong and insulting. Once again, FNA's definition of "what americans like" Feel free to list the few exceptions, they will be just that, "exceptions". No consistency there as well, so it's clear the car design team in FNA isn't as good as FOE's. It's as if they just pencil something together in a napkin and send it to the production guys, with no refinement whatsover. FuckUs? Yes, it doesn't have anything to do with its styling, it's just a tempting package for the price. Edge's styling is decent and people wanted an alternative for the Murano for years, doesn't mean we should think everything about it is perfect "because it's selling well". I'm against your refusal to recognize the fact FNA designers lack the ambition and obsession with design FOE designers have shown. If they have any talent, they're not using it as they should, or lack consistency. When Nissan launched the '02 Altima, everyone agreed the cabin needed to be redone. Had you been in charge of Nissan, would you've told everyone to shut up "because it's selling well and therefore that proves there's nothing to fix or improve, we got the interior right yadda yadda"? Consumer clinics are retarded. Do I really need to remind you how "listening to customers feedback on styling" resulted in the Aztek, the old Malibu, your 96 Sable, etc.? Most people don't like new things. And then, even if we accept the idea Ford listened to them, said consumers flip flopped with the FuckUs, because the first clinics obviously did like the original fog lights 3-4 years ago. In the end you're the only one who can decide if you should raise the bar or not, clinics will just work with what you give them, but you're the one who has to come up with a design that's suited for the future, tempting enough to make your product a strong candidate when its launched, not barely competitive with what's out there right now, which is what FNA did in the last couple of years. Those would be just two "hits" out of how many questionable efforts? You might not like FOE, but their work is consistenly acceptable and competitive (truly competitive).

It's basically as simple as this: - FNA engineers have been doing a great job. - FNA research also did its homework quite well. - FNA designers have not perfomed at the same level, they're the main reason why the other 2 don't get the recognition they deserve. FOE = Respected. FNA = Laughed at. Given the fact that great design is global in nature, when americans don't find visual stimulation with FNA's work most often than not, well... it's time to let someone respected --someone with a clue-- help.

It was advertised and people see them daily on the streets... they're still ignoring them. You're confusing lack of advertising, with Ford refusing to waste money on a lost cause. I could probably fill your room with posters of Laura Bush... odds are you still won't see her as a MILF.

Because FNA's efforts are subpar compared not only to FOE, but the competition as well. Things are improving (gotta admit engineering has done its work lately), but other than the Flex, the design department is still leaving much to be desired (new Mustang and Fusion interiors... I expected better after the Flex). As for customer research, again, I'm not against giving customers what they want, I just don't share your view that in order to do that, you've to make the cabin look like crap (aka FNA's definition of "american"). All the research and engineering progress won't do shit if your car --largely due to visual feedback-- is perceived as inferior or mediocre Vs. the competition, also aimed at, and prefered by, americans.

I've never argued the S-Max should replace the Edge, I've argued FNA should use its interior or at least offer both. FuckUs? All people see is "35 MPG + Sync", of course sales are up. If you disagree, then I guess you think FNA should make all their cars look in & out like the FuckUs, right?

You don't need to state it with words. To doubt it would be the case, is because you think the opposite would be true. And, IIRC, you openly stated the only reason americans would pick Fusion over the Mondeo was because of Dave. To me, right there, you conceded the fact the Mondeo is a better product all around. It wasn't the inferior interior, it wasn't the warmed over 2001 Mondeo exterior, it wasn't the powerplants, or the inferior NVH and R&H... it would win because of Dave... a grille that has been a failure in everything but the Edge. That's the Fusion's "advantage"? That it "doesn't look like a Camry"? If someone were to tell me FNA's truck division "knows what americans want and like", I would believe it, I know they know their shit, they like to polish their work and their products are first class. The car division? No way. The fact you're admitting Sync --something Ford DIDN'T create-- is a major selling point to get a Ford car, well, that should tell you something about their talent, especially when most reviews find almost every element in a FNA car mediocre or in need of a redesign, and basically tell people how clueless FNA is and to look elsewhere. Those reviews aren't done by europeans, but by AMERICANS. And no, it's not a boycott against Ford from the media, unless you want to claim sites like FamilyCar.com have an agenda against Ford.

It's equally as questionable as your premise of "FNA all the way or else", how can you prove --assuming both were on sale-- americans would choose the Fusion over the Mondeo? And don't give me that "because they would mistake it for a Camry" crap. No matter how hard you try to spin the issue, Dave was a failure that only did something for the Edge, it did shit for sales of the Freestyle, the Taurus, and the Fusion... yes I said Fusion, because no matter how much you want to argue about it, it's clear the Mondeo was a better effort all around. I'm willing to accept the things that worked in NA to make a better product, and yes that includes thing like the 3.5L V6 and Sync. Why can't you accept the fact Kinetic design was a success, and FNA has shit for a design language in & out for cars? Take winning elements from both sides to make a great product, rubish like this is far from a "winning" effort: I find it somewhat insulting that you constantly claim that is what americans want / like. Why are you against superior efforts and progress?

To be honest I expected they would move EUCD/CD3 from Mexico to the US, and retool Hermosillo for C2.

Because your main point has switched from styling to ergonomics, Euro interiors worked just fine there. Mondeo is just as roomy as the Fusion too. So you can't use either as a reason why FNA should be given priority in terms of design and whatnot. It won't be an issue and it's the right thing to do, no matter how many tears the whole thing makes you shed at night.

LOL... I see RJ is still butthurt over the whole "FNA lost to FOE's excellence" thing. Cancel the Fiesta ASAP. Kinetic design won't work in NA and just look how hard the old Accord bombed for using the European interior/ergonomics for NA... oh wait. Well at least they fixed that with the Civic... oh wait again. Well at least they're redesigning the Mondeo to resemble the Taurus... oh shit it's the other way around.

Didn't Fiat largely financed their turnaround with the cash they got out of GM? How long would it've taken GM to recover the 4+ billion needed to buy Fiat, plus the additional 1.5 billion + extra funding Fiat got elsewhere for their turnaround? What about further future investment for next-gen platforms and V8 engines for Maserati, Alfas, etc. IN addition to all the operational expenses, like absorbing pension costs and Fiat's long term debt? This is as flawed as saying Ford fucked up by selling Aston Martin "because they lost all those profits".

:hysterical: :hysterical: :hysterical: :hysterical: Good one.

"Bo bo bo FOE could be better today if they made their products resemble a wart or a suitcase on wheels" Jellymoulds

Horrible timing if true, but I guess a new H-D was needed anyway.

Cool, can't wait to see it.

So GM's 3.0L will be as noisy as Ford's?