bzcat

Now 200 S for under $17k... that's a bit crazy $11k off MSRP? http://www.carmax.com/enus/view-car/default.html?id=10715779

Another $1,000 price chop. Now $17,995 for a well-equipped 200 Limited. http://www.carmax.com/enus/view-car/default.html?id=11396751&AVi=0&No=0&Rp=R&D=90&zip=30601&N=4294967095+284+4294962944+4294961989&Us=14&Q=6b01e7de-b208-469e-9108-01a72c5c7f5b&Ep=search:results:results%20page And Deanh... that's what I was hinting - there is more discounts if you are willing to haggle. You can't even buy stripped down Fusion S for this kind of money.

This is not a sign of a car selling "quite well"... $6,500+ off at Carmax (they are supposedly "no-haggle" so that means you can get more discount if you go to a traditional car dealer and shake the tree). Profit margin... what profit margin? http://www.carmax.com/search?ASc=14&D=90&zip=30601&N=4294967095+284+4294962944+4294961989 200 "Limited" is the retail grade entry level model like Fusion SE How about this up-trim V6 "S" for rock bottom price of $20,799? [note: 200 S V6 in theory is similar to Fusion 2.0 Ecoboost SE with luxury package, which is a $25k car here in Los Angeles] http://www.carmax.com/enus/view-car/default.html?id=10715779 200 LX ~ Fusion S 200 Limited ~ Fusion SE 200 S ~ Fusion SE w/luxury package 200 C ~ Fusion Titanium

Trax is a GM Gamma II vehicle. Gamma I was engineered by GM Europe and Gamma II was engineered by GM Korea. The only thing left over from Daewoo in the GM line up worldwide is the Chinese Buick Excel and its low cost cousin Baojun 630/610.

Ford doesn't participate in it because it is really small markets. There are only 2 players left in it: 4Runner and Xterra, and both are basically being "Ranger'ed" indefinitely. I wouldn't include Jeep Grand Cherokee or Durango in the same segment because they have wider appeal and are available in simple RWD version. And Jeep Wrangler is essentially in a class of one. People buy Wrangler because they want one, not because they looked at 4Runner and decided Wrangler is a better vehicle. I really don't see a market for Everest in the US. I'm sure it is a very nice and competent SUV but it is based on a pickup truck chassis and those things just don't sell in the US like they used to.

Also, the segment is really small overall so GM's heavy presence in the police Tahoe and airport livery fleet market kind of skews the number quite a bit. Note, I'm not saying the fleet sales are bad... those are lucrative sales but Ford all but withdrew from the livery SUV market a while back so they were not competing for the business - my speculation is that Ford decided it was bad for CAFE to keep selling large numbers of Expedition. If they decide to go back in with improved drivetrain (much better CAFE), it might move the market share needle fast and furious. I think the Alumina-gatorTM and Expedi-liteTM is really going to upend the segment in a few years.

I will be mildly surprised if F-150 hybrid doesn't exist by 2017 when the new CAFE kicks in. Remember Ford and Toyota started working on a RWD truck hybrid program 5 years ago and then Ford pulled out in 2013 saying basically, Toyota has nothing to offer in this particular arena? That means Ford had decided to go on its own and I'm sure the development is almost complete. The reason I think it wasn't launched with 2015 F-150 is because Ford is waiting for the 10 speed auto, and/or to limit manufacturing complication during the first year. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-07-23/ford-splits-with-toyota-plans-own-truck-hybrid-system.html Diesel F-150 is much simpler engineering exercise and I think if fleet buyers demand it, Ford may make it happen. It all depends on the Transit... if diesel end up being more than 50% of the sales, then F-150 diesel will follow.

If GM doesn't any have problem selling Encore with ATP near $24k, it will have no problem selling Trax for $20k.

How much do you want to bet that the new Ford-GM 10 speed RWD transmission is designed for hybrid application? The planetary gear setup is good for packaging and makes a lot of sense in a FWD car where the eCVT is receiving power input from both engine and battery; or faux-AWD where the engine drives the front wheel via eCVT and the electric motor drives the rear wheels directly (i.e. Lexus RX, Toyota Highlander). In RWD car or truck, it makes less sense because you need to send the power to the rear with drive shaft... right thru the transmission. So if you are starting with a clean sheet design, might as well to make sure your conventional transmission work with the hybrid system from the get go.

These B-segment CUVs are roughly where the C-segment CUVs were a decade ago in terms of size. Trax/Encore is about the same size as PT Cruiser. CX-3 is within a whisker of the original RAV4. Jeep Renegade is nearly identical in size to the 4 door XJ Cherokee.

I think PI will stay on the old Taurus platform for a while. The specialized equipment manufacturers have barely recouped their investments in creating new accessories and hardware for the current PI.

It's kind of ironic... The V8 Supercar series was evolved out of the original Australian Touring Car series. But because BMW M3 and Nissan Skyline GT-R kept winning the damn thing and independents running Ford Sierra Cosworth was kicking factory backed Ford Falcon butts, so Ford threatened to pull out unless the rules were changed. The rules were then rigged to be V8 only so in effect, limiting the series to Ford and Holden. And after a few years, they ditched the touring car concept completely and went to tube frame cars. So now it has come full circle... I believe Ford will be back in the series if they change the rules again. My opinion - they should return to a true touring car series, which will actually reflect the kind of cars Australians buy - C-segment hatchbacks and what not. This will allow Ford to field Focus based race cars and Holden will jump in with Cruze. Others (Honda, BMW, Mazda, Hyundai, Toyota, VW - all major importers in Australia) will likely follow.

The market share issue has been brought up again and I think we need to look at it in context. Ford sales is falling year-over-year... true. But what is happening in 2014 that is causing that? 1. F-150 plant shut down and inventory management - I think Ford will gladly take reduced volume on F-150 now knowing it will bury the competition in 2015 when all the plants are up and running. 2. E-Class switch over to Transit - Again, the volume shrinkage here is not alarming. And Ford is already back to the top of the heap. 3. Aging Taurus losing steam - OK, old product at the end of cycle, no big deal. 4. Fusion slowing down - This is a bit of concern but looks like Ford made a calculation and decided to pass on some fleet deals to keep residual value high. This is all about profit planning - since Ford still owns its own bank, it needs to make sure the car it is leasing today will not be worthless in 3 years. Unlike GM or Chrysler, which doesn't really give a flying F about residual once they sell the car to the lease holder (banks). 5. Focus slowing down - mid cycle update just happened... let's see if 2015 sees an up turn before breaking out the panic button. As for adding niche products... I think people forgot what it was like just a few years ago... Look at all the niche models we got since "One Ford" era started: Transit Connect, Focus ST, C-MAX, Fiesta ST (I would even include the entire Fiesta line as niche given the volume). That's already a lot of "holes" that got filled. And we are on track to get Focus RS too. There isn't very many ground left to cover for Ford in my opinion. Looking at what's around and making an educated guess, I think these are somewhat reasonable holes to consider: 1. EcoSport / B-segment CUV 2. Transit Custom / Midsize van 3. EcoSport or Transit Connect based small truck 4. Jacked up Focus hatch "cross" version / think Subaru XV or Jeep Compass competitor - slot in between EcoSport and Escape. 5. Ranger / Midsize truck - this one is feasible in low volume if chicken tax goes away, especially if focused on the "lifestyle" end of the market - i.e. no 2 door work truck Notice it is heavy on utilities and trucks... because that's where the market growth is happening. What I don't expect: 1. Everest / BOF SUV is not going to make a come back no matter what people here think 2. Escort / Cheap C-segment car 3. Ikon / Cheap B-segment car 4. S-Max / Minivan

Burrito Class Ford Transit 4,851 Chevy Express 4,478 Ford E-Series 4,151 Ram ProMaster 3,290 Mercedes Sprinter 2,532 Nissan NV 1,141 GMC Savana 716 Order in the universe restored as Ford rolls out more Transit build varieties and inventory levels up Taco Class Ford Transit Connect 2,186 Ram C/V 1,709 Nissan NV200 1,131 Chevy City Express 24 For some reason, Nissan just can't get fleets to bite on NV200. Rebadged Chevy version makes an appearance this month - let see if better fleet leverage thru GM will improve the sales. Enchilada Class Toyota Sienna 8,946 Dodge Dead man walking Caravan 8,842 Honda Odyssey 8,639 Chrysler Town & Country 8,055 Kia Sedona 3,538 :do what: Ford Flex 1,803 Nissan Quest 483 Mazda5 407 VW Routan 0 Not sure if Kia dumped a whole crap load of old Sedona to rental fleets or the new one is selling

Yes, ramped up! My father bought one of the 2k MKC sold in November... started shopping before Thanksgiving, had no trouble finding available inventory here in Los Angeles. Got the car on Black Friday at $300 over invoice - $1,000 rebate (so $700 below invoice). Don't do that... Chrysler stopped building the old 200 early in 2013 so inventory was next to nothing by the end of the calendar year. Also, from what I can see, the new 200 is still heavy on rental car fleet sale. Well, Ford is not spending a lot of money on F-150 and Transit to manage the inventory so it's not a fair comparison. But it is also not dumping cash on the hood like Toyota is doing with Camry so that's good. I agree but I think Ford probably wish they sold more Focus wagon C-Max.

Soul's ATP is a shade over $19k. I'd like to know where you can get a free one

It is easier to convince buyers to pay a premium in any segment for the CUV vs. sedan or hatch so I think that's why the push to get these B-segment CUVs on the market. Look at the dynamics of C-segment CUV vs. midsize car prices... they tend to be similar (e.g. CR-V and Accord selling for about the same money, and much higher than Civic) so the CUV is driving more profit to the C-segment platform. Similar dynamics is going to happen with the B-segment. B-segment CUV is already selling at premium price relative to B-segment cars. Buick Encore ATP is $24k, not in the mid teens of Chevy Sonic. Some of that is due to Buick being a more content heavy premium vehicle but I'm sure Chevy will be getting Cruze money for Trax vs. Sonic as well. And I'm sure Honda will be getting Civic money for the HR-V rather than Fit prices. Ditto Mazda CX-3 getting Mazda3 money instead of Mazda2 prices.

Ford is launching Mondeo with hybrid option (and later the Energi version) in Europe... which will be the first large non-luxury brand car in Europe to have hybrid option. Should be interesting to follow to see if hybrid cars will actually make an dent in the fleet market in Europe. However, Mondeo hybrid is only available as a sedan, in a market that favors hatch and wagon... something Ford will have to fix ASAP.

I can see that... Toyota also sells 2 midsize utilities in Australia so I can see Ford try to replace Territory with 7 seat Everest and Edge. As for UK, I think the European markets in general still prefer the S-Max in this size segment so the 7 seat Edge may be redundant.

Current EcoSport won't be visiting the US... there is no suitable production sites to source the car for US market. Brazil - production maxed out for local markets India - production maxed out for local markets Thailand - production maxed out for local markets and Europe China - not gonna happen Ford made the decision to skip the car for this generation because of production issues and because the market was unproven back in 2011 (when the decision had to be made). The only offering in the US market at that time was Mini Countryman and it was a premium priced product. The next generation will 100% guaranteed to be in the US. Ford will use the time to really hit the product development target. Just to echo what Richard said before... Explorer wasn't the first midsize 4 door SUV Expedition wasn't the first fullsize 4 door SUV Escape wasn't the first compact 4 door CUV Edge wasn't the first midsize 4 door CUV I wouldn't really worry about Ford missing the mark when they finally decides to join the party.

Europe doesn't give diesel an emission pass either. Euro V is only slightly behind CARB standards for particulars and Euro VI regs for diesel will actually converge with CARB regs for diesel so all large diesel engines in Europe will need urea injection too. The main reason diesel is popular in certain European countries is because diesel either get lower fuel taxes vs. gasoline (e.g. France), or because those countries have CO2 emission based annual taxes (e.g. UK, Germany). This obviously have a real and significant impact on operating costs. In places where there is no such tax preference (e.g. Switzerland, Spain most of Eastern Europe), gasoline is more popular.

Agree on "why bother". And just an FYI on the platform - it is based on the C1 Focus platform but cost engineered to meet a price point. So it doesn't have mulitlink independent rear suspension for example (ride quality will be poor compare to Focus), and that's just the start. Ford went through the car and took costs out everywhere... there is no doubt less sound proofing, smaller brakes, etc. The car looks "new" but it will not drive like a 2015 model that consumers in the US would expect.

If anyone not paying MT enough money, it has to be GM... The 5.3 Silverado seems like it is in serious need of update. It's as if Ford and Ram are in the Olympics finals of pickup trucks competition while the GM team is dominating in the Special Olympics. Some choice gems:

I don't really have a problem with them giving Ford the doubt on the unknown but the conclusion that Ram won based superior performance is kind of a farce.

LOL