igor Posted February 26, 2007 Share Posted February 26, 2007 OK we often hear of weird price comparisons between Euro and US Ford models, and people basically taking a UK price and converting it over based on the exchange rate. However when we compare other Euro models we find out that this does not really work. 2 Examples: VW GTI and BMW 335i The VW GTI starts in UK at LBS 20,580 and starts in US at USD 22,720, providing ratio of 1.1 (US price/ UK price) now the US GTI is built in Brazil/Mexico so the comparison is not completely valid - hence BMW: UK price for the BMW 335i starts at LBS 30,940, US price start at USD 38,700, for a ratio of 1.25. The new Mondeo will top off at LBS 24,720 (with the 217hp Turbo I5 fully loaded top of the line TitaniumX WAGON level). http://www.carkeys.co.uk/news/2007/february/26/12507.asp using VW ratio, that would translate to 26,711 USD using BMW ratio, that would be 30,243 USD. The current US fusion SES starts at 22,735 USD, and the Camry XLE starts at 24,900 USD. I do not have all the details but the Mondeo does seem to be more expensive than US competition, but it is not clear whether this is significant enough to make difference. What I mean, is that we do not know the equipment differences. Maybe the TitaniumX trim level really cannot be compared to any trim level starting price in US, because it is so well equipped ... we also should not ignore that the EU Mondeo does not come with V6, and we do not know whether the D35 would fit in there ... and there is not AWD option. So what do you think? Igor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomServo92 Posted February 26, 2007 Share Posted February 26, 2007 If I'm not mistaken, all vehicles sold in Europe include VAT (value added tax) in the price. I'm not sure what the percentage of the price it constitutes, but you'd need to take it into account when comparing US-Euro pricing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcsario Posted February 26, 2007 Share Posted February 26, 2007 (edited) Err... the GTI is the European GTI. Golfs are NOT built in Mexico. Why do people always spin the facts to suit their criteria? See the VW GTI costs in Mexico about the same ammount it does in the US. The mk2 Focus ST is still cheaper by a significant margin. Substract about 30% off mexican prices (which include government taxes) and you get the NA regional price for imported cars. Edited February 26, 2007 by pcsario Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igor Posted February 26, 2007 Author Share Posted February 26, 2007 If I'm not mistaken, all vehicles sold in Europe include VAT (value added tax) in the price. I'm not sure what the percentage of the price it constitutes, but you'd need to take it into account when comparing US-Euro pricing. well yes, but that is the point ... you take the comparisons of the EU v. US prices of the same model and can calculate a price comparable to other US prices ... that was the goal. Igor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomServo92 Posted February 26, 2007 Share Posted February 26, 2007 well yes, but that is the point ... you take the comparisons of the EU v. US prices of the same model and can calculate a price comparable to other US prices ... that was the goal. Igor But you need to subtract the VAT before making the comparison. Otherwise the Euro prices are inflated in comparison to US prices. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcsario Posted February 26, 2007 Share Posted February 26, 2007 If I'm not mistaken, all vehicles sold in Europe include VAT (value added tax) in the price. I'm not sure what the percentage of the price it constitutes, but you'd need to take it into account when comparing US-Euro pricing. Exactly, time and time again it's been pointed out that prices are region driven. By the same logic most people use here (not you Igor), if cars were really that expensive to produce, then people are earning fortunes too. (A calculator told me everything about Europe and it says they make almost twice as much!11!) Try telling your average european that they're living twice as good just because their average income --once converted to US dollars-- ends up being significantly higher than the average income from J6P in Chicago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igor Posted February 26, 2007 Author Share Posted February 26, 2007 Err... the GTI is the European GTI. Golfs are NOT built in Mexico. Why do people always spin the facts to suit their criteria? See the VW GTI costs in Mexico about the same ammount it does in the US. The mk2 Focus ST is still cheaper by a significant margin. Substract about 30% off mexican prices (which include government taxes and other things) and you get the NA regional price for imported cars. Well I did not know they did not build them there anymore .. I am not spinning .. that is why I provided 2 comparison points. I am not arguing the Mondeo is too expensive ... I just wanted t osstart a discussion with some actual numbers (even if only estimates) ..rather than some baseless assertions. If you quantify the "subtract 30% off mexican prices..." model, we can have third estimate. Finally, even if we use the GTI comparison ration (1.1) the Mondeo comes in at 26k ... that is still a little more than even the Camry ... Again .. I want this to be a discussion and I will likely counter both points of view .. because i am personally not sure whether Ford can pull it off or not ... so I want it thoroughly discussed. Igor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcsario Posted February 26, 2007 Share Posted February 26, 2007 (edited) well yes, but that is the point ... you take the comparisons of the EU v. US prices of the same model and can calculate a price comparable to other US prices ... that was the goal. Igor Your goal was to find a reason to use a higher ratio, hence it seems you\'re also biased in this. People like biker and me are just pointing out that most of the excuses people throw around are groundless. Even if a direct comparison was possible, people act as if things like Bluetooth, rain sensing wipers, etc. would also be present in the NA car if it was built here or imported over. No matter what the converted price is, it could be significantly lower taking things like that into account. Edit: Posted that before reading your post, sorry. Edited February 26, 2007 by pcsario Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igor Posted February 26, 2007 Author Share Posted February 26, 2007 (edited) But you need to subtract the VAT before making the comparison. Otherwise the Euro prices are inflated in comparison to US prices. no I do not. it is a simple equation: [(US GTI price) / (UK GTI price) ]*(UK Mondeo Price)= US Mondeo Price this uses the assumption that in both US and UK two cars .. like the Mondeo and GTI would share the same ratio of prices ... so UK GTI price / UK Mondeo Price = US GTI Price / US Mondeo Price ... it is simple. Igor Edited February 26, 2007 by igor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igor Posted February 26, 2007 Author Share Posted February 26, 2007 (edited) n/m posted before I saw your corrected post .. Igor Edited February 26, 2007 by igor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomServo92 Posted February 26, 2007 Share Posted February 26, 2007 (edited) no I do not. it is a simple equation: [(US GTI price) / (UK GTI price) ]*(UK Mondeo Price)= US Mondeo Price it is simple. Igor I see. By doing a ratio, you're trying to take the VAT out of the equation. Edited February 26, 2007 by TomServo92 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igor Posted February 26, 2007 Author Share Posted February 26, 2007 I see. By doing a ratio, you're trying to take the VAT out of the equation. yes Igor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcsario Posted February 26, 2007 Share Posted February 26, 2007 (edited) Well I did not know they did not build them there anymore .. I am not spinning .. that is why I provided 2 comparison points. I am not arguing the Mondeo is too expensive ... I just wanted t osstart a discussion with some actual numbers (even if only estimates) ..rather than some baseless assertions. If you quantify the "subtract 30% off mexican prices..." model, we can have third estimate. Finally, even if we use the GTI comparison ration (1.1) the Mondeo comes in at 26k ... that is still a little more than even the Camry ... Again .. I want this to be a discussion and I will likely counter both points of view .. because i am personally not sure whether Ford can pull it off or not ... so I want it thoroughly discussed. Igor It's really quite simple; it can be done because FOE built an excellent, flexible business case around their products that allows them to be profitable at several pricepoints. The C1 Focus can be sold --profitably-- for 13k USD well equipped. A bare bones C1 Focus can be sold profitably for as low as 11k. Prices are region driven. The outgoing Mondeo actually costed less than the Fusion on average, 4cyl Vs 6 cyl. (again, not a hard feat after stripping it out of all the high-end features it has in Europe and because it had the D25) The outgoing Mondeo with the D30 (fully loaded, leather recaro seats, xenons, rain sensing wipers, etc.) sold profitably for about the same price as the SEL Fusion. Even by RJ's own terms the D30 couldn't have been more than a 1.5k hike if it was the standard engine. The reason why american Fords suck so much in comparison is not because cars are more expensive in Europe to produce, it's because Detroit has to cover the 1.7k per car the UAW costs them on average. That's why the US Accord can be as good as the one in Europe (there's not a drastic difference between Civics either), while the ameriFords reek of cost cutting. I don't think Ford would've been able to produce the Fusion --as is, profitably-- in the US. Ditto with Chrysler and the 300C (built as far away from the UAW as possible and with a mexican-built HEMI) Ford will be able to pull this off, simply because the US will just become another region where Euro Fords are sold. Other than federalizing them, the process is exactly the same. Edited February 26, 2007 by pcsario Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igor Posted February 26, 2007 Author Share Posted February 26, 2007 It's really quite simple; it can be done because FOE built an excellent, flexible business case around their products that allows them to be profitable at several pricepoints. The C1 Focus can be sold very well equipped for 13k USD. A bare bones C1 Focus can be sold profitably for as low as 11k. Prices are region driven. The outgoing Mondeo actually costed less than the Fusion on average, 4cyl Vs 6 cyl. (again, not a hard feat after stripping it out of all the high-end features it has in Europe and because it had the D25) The outgoing Mondeo with the D30 (fully loaded, leather recaro seats, xenons, rain sensing wipers, etc.) sold profitably for about the same price as the SEL Fusion. The D30 was just a 1k price hike. Even by RJ's own terms it couldn't add more than 1.5k per car. The reason why american Fords suck so much in comparison is not because cars are more expensive in Europe to produce, it's because Detroit has to cover the 1.7k per car the UAW costs them on average. That's why the US Accord can be as good as the one in Europe (there's not a drastic difference between Civics either), while the Fusion sucks even compared to a six year old internal effort. I see your point ... but even then in the grand scheme of things $1.7k does not seem that much .. especially when they realize the cost saving of NOT developing 2 separate cars .. for Example Lutz said that the Astra will be profitable BECAUSE while it will not SELL FOR PROFIT, GM saved the need to develop a whole new car - $80million expense - so the starts from that PROFIT .. and has some space to eat down if it sells for a slight loss ... I personally do not blame the overhead as much as unwillingness to be great ... like when they approved the 08 Focus .. anyone willing to be great would approve the couple more mill for the C1 importation instead of further development of an orphaned product ... but the "then" Ford did not see this big picture ... in the end, between the 05 Focus development and the 08 Focus development and the LOWER transaction price of the US Foci compared to the possible C1 transaction prices, I am sure Ford NA is quite deep in the hole compared to simply being part of the C1 project from the start and doing it right the first time. Igor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kris Kolman Posted February 26, 2007 Share Posted February 26, 2007 Best place I've found for price comparisions is Australia... Why? Because the shipping/import costs are built in, and the GST (Goods & Service Tax) in Australia is clearly called out, and so is the Luxury Car Tax (LCT). GST is 10% os the sale price, and LCT is 25% above $57,000AU. Example1: Aussi Focus - Recommend Price $20,990AU Aussi Focus - Price wo Taxes $19,082AU Aussi Focus - US Exchange Rate $15,145US Example2: Aussi Falcon XR8 - Recommend Price $44,990AU Aussi Falcon XR8 - Price wo Taxes $40900AU Aussi Falcon XR8 - US Exchange Rate $32,460US Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted February 26, 2007 Share Posted February 26, 2007 Best place I've found for price comparisions is Australia... Why? Because the shipping/import costs are built in, and the GST (Goods & Service Tax) in Australia is clearly called out, and so is the Luxury Car Tax (LCT). GST is 10% os the sale price, and LCT is 25% above $57,000AU. Example1: Aussi Focus - Recommend Price $20,990AU Aussi Focus - Price wo Taxes $19,082AU Aussi Focus - US Exchange Rate $15,145US Example2: Aussi Falcon XR8 - Recommend Price $44,990AU Aussi Falcon XR8 - Price wo Taxes $40900AU Aussi Falcon XR8 - US Exchange Rate $32,460US An intresting one will be the Aussie Commodore SS-V US$39K and the Pontiac G8 - around US$30K A friend of mine just bought an RX8 in AUS equaled to US$45K, the same thing in the US costs US$27K. Imagine paying US$45K for top of the line AWD Taurus - That's what FOA expects us to pay for the Fairlane Ghia, no wonder they don't sell. All of these conversions will drive you nuts - the rest of the world pays heaps more than the US. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MKII Posted February 27, 2007 Share Posted February 27, 2007 OK we often hear of weird price comparisons between Euro and US Ford models, and people basically taking a UK price and converting it over based on the exchange rate. However when we compare other Euro models we find out that this does not really work. 2 Examples: VW GTI and BMW 335i The VW GTI starts in UK at LBS 20,580 and starts in US at USD 22,720, providing ratio of 1.1 (US price/ UK price) now the US GTI is built in Brazil/Mexico so the comparison is not completely valid - hence BMW: UK price for the BMW 335i starts at LBS 30,940, US price start at USD 38,700, for a ratio of 1.25. The new Mondeo will top off at LBS 24,720 (with the 217hp Turbo I5 fully loaded top of the line TitaniumX WAGON level). http://www.carkeys.co.uk/news/2007/february/26/12507.asp using VW ratio, that would translate to 26,711 USD using BMW ratio, that would be 30,243 USD. The current US fusion SES starts at 22,735 USD, and the Camry XLE starts at 24,900 USD. I do not have all the details but the Mondeo does seem to be more expensive than US competition, but it is not clear whether this is significant enough to make difference. What I mean, is that we do not know the equipment differences. Maybe the TitaniumX trim level really cannot be compared to any trim level starting price in US, because it is so well equipped ... we also should not ignore that the EU Mondeo does not come with V6, and we do not know whether the D35 would fit in there ... and there is not AWD option. So what do you think? Igor I kniow I can buy in Estonia, a very well equipped Mondeo SW 1.8l in Canadian $27,000 on the road price, including VAT and fees etc. A Fusion at this trim level (minus engine difference) in Canada would run in the Canadian $28-30,000.00, for the Mondeo sedan 1.8l "on the road" price in Estonia , in Canadian $25,000.00 The new Mondeo ST as far as I understand will be offered with the new SI6 3.0l turbo. This Volvo engine is actually 1mm shorter then Volvo's 2.5T engine, plus a newly developed AWD system from Haldex. Mondeo is attractive in the sense it is offered in 3 styles, sedan, 5 door hatch and wagon New Models: New Mondeo: Pricing announced 26 Feb 07 17:39 Ford has announced pricing for the new Mondeo: it'll start from £14,995 when it goes on sale in June. Entry-level model at that price is the Edge 1.6 hatch (110bhp); most expensive version is the 2.5T Titanium X estate (220bhp, £24,195). Model-for-model, each version is around £300 cheaper than its equivalent in the outgoing range. All models including the Edge have around £700-worth of extra equipment, with standard kit including ESP, an alarm, Isofix child seat mounting points, a driver's knee airbag, the Easyfuel system which prevents you putting diesel into a petrol car and vice versa, air conditioning, cruise control, a leather steering wheel, CD/MP3-compatible audio system, side airbags, electric front windows, remote central locking, heated front windscreen and power/heated door mirrors. Zetec spec (from £16,695, for the 1.6 125bhp saloon and hatch) adds 16" alloy wheels, front foglights, dual-zone air conditioning, a leather gearknob and electric rear windows. Ghia versions (from £18,445 for the 2.0 145bhp saloon) have 17" alloy wheels, automatic headlights, rain-sensing wipers, power-folding door mirrors and a six-CD autochanger. Range-topping Titanium X models (from £21,245 for the 1.8 TDCi five-door) have Alcantara/leather trim, an ignition button, adaptive front lighting, blue-tinted glass and unique instrument display. Options available will include sat nav, tyre pressure monitoring, sports suspension, integral rear child seats, front and rear parking sensors, voice-controlled Bluetooth kit and voice-controlled audio and ventilation, rear-seat DVD system and, for the estate, a slide-out load floor. The order books open on 1 March. http://www.channel4.com/4car/news/news-sto...p?news_id=15836 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MKII Posted February 28, 2007 Share Posted February 28, 2007 Pricing list on this link, which incldes MSRP before taxes and fees, http://media.ford.com/newsroom/release_dis...m?release=25529 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igor Posted February 28, 2007 Author Share Posted February 28, 2007 Pricing list on this link, which incldes MSRP before taxes and fees,http://media.ford.com/newsroom/release_dis...m?release=25529 thanks a lot ... so the 2.3l 161hp Mondeo Sedan Edge (base model) has on-the-road price of 17.695,00 pounds ... so using the GTI 1.1 conversion ratio, the starting price for the US Base M0ndeo would be about $19k that is not that bad, especially once we factor in that the base equipment in US will likely be LOWER than the EU base equipment, making the car even cheaper. Igor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MKII Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 Mondeo slide show from Geneva http://picasaweb.google.nl/MirandaGijsen/F...231181297440642 What a beautiful vehicle!! Just a pity its too beautiful for Norh America Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
focalxplosion Posted May 4, 2007 Share Posted May 4, 2007 Mondeo slide show from Geneva http://picasaweb.google.nl/MirandaGijsen/F...231181297440642 What a beautiful vehicle!! Just a pity its too beautiful for Norh America Mercury Mondeo. I think it has a nice ring to it, don't you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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