Fifth Gear Reviews the Mondeo

[MKII]

It is a conclusion supported by an analysis of Ford's placement in magazine comparison tests that stress driving dynamics and performance. Rarely, if ever, does a Ford vehicle rank at the top of any comparison of vehicle performance.

 

Consider the Edge, dynamically inferior to the CX-9; Fusion to the Mazda6, Focus to the Mazda3--frankly, among entry level products, Mazda makes the vehicles with the best driving dynamics.

 

---

 

As far as it being about Ford's existing customers, yes, it is about their existing customers.

 

It is about getting a household that owns Ford(s) and other products to replace other products with Fords, it's about getting households that own used Fords to buy new Fords.

 

The car market is not black and white. Few people are doggedly brand loyal. If a Fusion owner has a good experience, you want them to feel comfortable replacing their RAV4, or their CRV, or their whatever, with a Ford branded product that is similar to their Fusion. Similar in look and feel, similar in ride and NVH.

 

---

 

And finally, there is no substitute for time. Would you stop and think about how many people live in the United States for a moment? 300,000,000.

 

Seriously. Stop and think about that.

 

Think about how many people that you are 'acquainted' with: 100 maybe? Now how well do you know person 98, 99, and 100?

 

Now suppose that each one of those guys knows 100 -different- people. Now you're up to 10,000. JUST 10,000.

 

Each one of those 10,000 people knows 100 other people.

 

You're only to 1,000,000. You and your circle of acquaintances, acquaintances' acquaintances, and their acquaintances only qualify for one Congressman at this point

 

Each one of those 1,000,000 people knows 100 other people. Now you've got California, New York and Texas. Only 47 more states to go!

 

-- Furthermore --

 

I believe the average cable system broadcasts in excess of 60 channels.

 

The proliferation of satellite radio has undercut the usefulness of broadcast radio ads.

 

Newspaper readership is declining, and once again, online media outlets replacing the print media have exploded in a manner that is even more striking than cable's replacement of broadcast TV.

 

It is darn hard to move a market this size, with this much media exposure. Anyone that tells you otherwise is playing you for a quick buck.

 

Unless you've something radically different from anything else on the market (not really going to happen in this car market), or you're willing to slather your cars in bikini models and sell them for $5.99 a sixpack, you're not going to accomplish much in a hurry.

 

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It's very easy to sit at a computer and imagine scenarios where you are able to right Ford's ship in no time, but when push comes to shove: what are your ideas? You know, of course, that a 'decent' response to a targeted direct mail piece is often in the low single digits. Banner ad clickthroughs may be even lower. Although I haven't seen statistics lately, I recall some outfits, back in 2001, promising clickthroughs 'as high as 5 out of 1000.'

 

Surveys indicate that consumers recall very little of typical TV commercials, print ads rarely generate an effect unless the person is already in the market for the item being advertised, etc., etc.

 

Trust me. No honest marketing exec would look at Ford and say, "Yeah, we can fix that in no time." Heck, Ford's internal studies show a 4-8 year gap between public perception of quality and quality as objectively measured.

 

Ford is a known name yes?

No need to market the name yes?

So what does need to be marketed?

If people have stopped reading print ads, and TV commericals are not generating the effect as before, where do the marketing people find the pulse of the average auto consumer. On-line maybe?

 

And what on-line sites do auto marketers go to collect the data, besides the now used manufacturers on-line surveys.

If you study some of the on-line auto sites what perception or conclusion would you garner regarding the perception of the Ford Motor Company.

Lets eliminate the so called professional auto critics, auto blogs etc, from this group, as we can safely say the general consensus is pretty negative in regards to FoAmerica and its offerings . Is the comments section of these sites relevant or should these commentors be taken as "just people with too much time on their hands who love to bash certain makes" or is this feed back somewhat relevant and useable in respect of the perception of the car buying public?

 

What percentage of the non Ford consumer does a auto manufacturer that is fighting for its survival want or try to capture, 1%, 5%?

 

You wrote "Unless you've something radically different from anything else on the market (not really going to happen in this car market"

you say this as a car enthusist yes, but as I mentioned before regarding the reaction from many regarding the Mondeo and the appearance of these people wondering why North America is not offered such a car. Maybe to you the Mondeo is nothing more then a dressed up Camry, but its quite obvious to some this car does represent something radically different then what they are used to seeing from FoAmerica. How can you deny that my statement does not at least some merit. Is it because you do not read so many sites were people are saying or writing their thoughts on this car, or you refuse to take this type of feed back as relevant.

Please can you honestly say that the Mondeo has not garnered a tremedous amount of positive reaction be it in the car journalist world and the car websites in general.

I am not saying the Mondeo would change FoAmericas situation over night, that is ridiculous and silly to use as an argument, but the buzz created about this car in many circles, not just the gear heads and every day car forum die hards, but in general.

Why does this positive energy seem to put so many here on the defensive that are supposed to be the cheerleaders for a company which the site seems to favour with Blue Oval written all over the place.

Just makes me scratch my head and wonder. The Mondeo is a Ford for god sake, and many here treat it as the enemy, you'd think it was a Toyota or Honda vehicle by the negative. Yes the business case is relevant, but we are speaking hypotheical.

Edited September 11, 2007 by MKII

[RichardJensen]

Ford is a known name yes?

 

Please can you honestly say that the Mondeo has not garnered a tremedous amount of positive reaction be it in the car journalist world and the car websites in general.

 

Why does this positive energy seem to put so many here on the defensive that are supposed to be the cheerleaders for a company which the site seems to favour with Blue Oval written all over the place.

1) There's much much much more to it than that. Marketing is not the same as advertising. I don't know how to make this more clear. I really honestly am at a loss. Marketing takes several years to work not just because of product cycles (complicated by the fact that Ford has a wide range of products), but because it takes time for people to adjust their attitudes about Ford products.

 

What you aim for, with marketing is not getting -a single sale- you want to manage the way your product is perceived by -everyone-. Your product will not appeal to everyone, but you want its appeal (or lack thereof) to be expressed pretty consistently.

 

And, like I said, if discussing the sheer size of this country and the length of product cycles (and vehicle ownership) doesn't do it, I really don't know what else to say.

 

2) The Mondeo has gotten attention in the automotive press. But that's no substitute for the real world. Go ask any 10 Fusion or Edge buyers if they've heard of the Mondeo. Now ask them if they've heard of the Mustang.

 

3) As for why the Mondeo puts me on the defensive? Because, IMO, bringing it here would be bad for business. It would do nothing good short or long term.

 

One of the reasons Ford has struggled (there are several) is because there has been NO consistency in what they've done in the U.S. Importing the Mondeo would just continue that trend. (not to mention the fact that it would almost certainly be more profitable in Europe).

 

I mean, IMO, even 50,000 sales of the Mondeo each year do not justify muddying the waters in NA.

 

Ford cannot be a company that makes cars, they need to adapt to a 'minority' mindset where they carefully manage the image of cars they make.

[MKII]

RJ wrote - It is a conclusion supported by an analysis of Ford's placement in magazine comparison tests that stress driving dynamics and performance. Rarely, if ever, does a Ford vehicle rank at the top of any comparison of vehicle performance.

 

Consider the Edge, dynamically inferior to the CX-9; Fusion to the Mazda6, Focus to the Mazda3--frankly, among entry level products, Mazda makes the vehicles with the best driving dynamics.

 

You do not see any reason why Ford would want to change this and be ranked ahead in these comparison tests, because its a Ford. You are fine with Ford being ranked most of the time inferior in these aspects?

These types of analysis have no bearing on the buying public?

If you are running Ford this type of results seen most of the time regarding what you are trying to sell, does not enter the process of wanting to be ranked on top, you are fine with these re-occuring results, because you know the real consumers of Ford cars could not care less about comparison test and rarely being ranked at the top.

 

You comments are exactly why so many here are always going on about mediocrity and not caring about being the best, and your analysis, comparison test comments confirm this notion.

 

Seems to me you are making a very good business case for the Mondeo.

Edited September 11, 2007 by MKII

[RichardJensen]

because you know the real consumers of Ford cars could not care less about comparison test and rarely being ranked at the top.

Most people take a test drive before they buy.

 

Most people will assign more value to that 'seat of the pants' experience than instrumented tests and typeset snottery from 'princess and the pea' auto journalists.

 

You can view sranger's ownership experience with his CX-9 and Ford Edge to see exactly what I'm talking about.

 

----

 

As far as celebrating mediocrity. I will gladly celebrate mediocrity on instrumented testing in the sort of pre-printed perfect bound ad-caked clay-coated bumwipe that comes with a Car & Driver masthead every month--IF Ford has done its homework with its consumers and built them a product that THEY will enjoy.

 

I couldn't care less if Dan Neil compares some Ford product to his spending quality time with his grandmothers underwear. Why? Because stuff like that can be overcome by good advertising, positive word of mouth, and first hand experience.

[RichardJensen]

being the best

Tell me:

 

Who gave Car & Driver the authority to determine what is 'best'?

 

Seriously.

 

Why are you so hung up on what the 'rags' say about Ford? Why is it so important to you that Ford finish 'first' in every comparo, win ever car of the year, etc.?

 

Is it not more important that Ford have the most satisfied customers?

 

If it comes down to it, are you prepared to make that choice, and alter -your- expectations?

[MKII]

Tell me:

 

Who gave Car & Driver the authority to determine what is 'best'?

 

Seriously.

 

Why are you so hung up on what the 'rags' say about Ford? Why is it so important to you that Ford finish 'first' in every comparo, win ever car of the year, etc.?

 

Is it not more important that Ford have the most satisfied customers?

 

If it comes down to it, are you prepared to make that choice, and alter -your- expectations?

 

The analysis was not my post it was your yours. I couldn't care less about what or which rag is making the comparison test as you used in your post. why do you turn your own reasoning into mine? But it must effect some consumers perceptions, Yes?

 

You ask Is it not more important that Ford have the most satisfied customers? Definitely, but isn't this a problem for FoAmerica?

[LincolnFan]

You obviously have never been inside one, there is a reason they sell so well, they are incredible cars all around.

 

Yea, I just test drove one.

 

Overrated, yes the car was supreme in the handling department. But the car is lame in the exterior/interior design. The interior sucked for a 30K USD (that's the price of the 320i I test drove) hard plastics were everywhere, the overall design is not inviting at all. The fabric used in seats was very cheap, but then again I was testing a 320i so I won't nitpick that part.

 

The exterior? Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

[RichardJensen]

why do you turn your own reasoning into mine?

No. You said:

 

"You comments are exactly why so many here are always going on about mediocrity and not caring about being the best"

 

Implicitly suggesting that YOU care about Ford being the best, and I don't.

 

I want you to tell me what YOU mean by 'BEING THE BEST.'

 

Because I've told you what I mean:

 

Customer satisfaction and quality.

 

In both areas Ford has made and continues to make significant improvements. Regardless of arglebargle over the Mondeo, Fusion customers are happy with their cars, and their cars are extraordinarily reliable. This is a HEEEEYOUGE improvement over the Focus launch.

 

With customer satisfaction and quality, I would hesitate to say that these are 'problems' for Ford, as Ford is doing what they need to do to address them, therefore it seems about as useful to point them out as it is useful to point out the existence of a broken leg after it has been set.

[ShockFX]

Are you kidding ME?

 

You want Ford to build you a BMW and sell it to you for less than a BMW because it's a Ford.

 

Do you have any idea how stupid that is?

 

For the 5th time, I DO NOT WANT FORD TO BUILD A BMW. I want Ford to build cars with class leading dynamics/style that are so good they are compared upward. The Mondeo is proof they can do it. Where are you getting I want Ford to build a BMW? I have yet to say anything close to that.

 

From reading these forums you always seemed like the level headed guy, but apparently you can't even read.

[wescoent]

Ford won't be owning Jaguar too much longer, and the XF will be well above $35k, at least it had damn well better be in the 5series range, not the 3 series range. And for the last time, I'm not saying offer the Mondeo here, I'm saying offer class leading dynamics and style in the cars here. The Mondeo is so good it's compared upwards, last I checked, no one is comparing ANY Ford product upward. I'm also NOT talking about the Fusion, the Fusion isn't the car I want. My point is Ford doesn't make ANY car that fits what I want. There is no car anyone shopping a C/3/A4/IS/G will want to look at at Ford. Ford is missing entire segments by refusing to compete.

 

So basically, you want a small RWD sports sedan. Join the club. Having done a lot of soul-searching, I've determined my own ideal vehicle to be a BMW 535i with either a stick or the SMG. Therefore, most of my quasi-daily drivers have been variations on this theme. The only vehicle Ford has ever produced that has come close to this ideal was the 2000-2002 Lincoln LS V6 with the 5-speed manual. Right now, General Motors is developing a range of proper small RWD sports sedans, including a Pontiac, Saturn, and Cadillac. The Pontiac should be an incredible value, and I believe will be a very fun car to toss around town.

 

Then we reach the business proposition. A small RWD sedan is required for Cadillac, as GM is trying to out-BMW BMW. A small RWD is VERY helpful to Pontiac to rebuild their reputation as the sports division of GM, and will attract a lot of young blood to the brand. Hence, good for them. However, where does a small RWD sedan fit in at Ford? Certainly not Lincoln... you tell me the brand that's made famous by Continentals and Town Cars can sell a SMALL RWD sports sedan in the spirit of the 3-Series. Mercury and Ford, perhaps as a low volume supplemental model. A partnership with Volvo or Jaguar might work as well.

 

Then, how do we engineer it? The GM Alpha platform is a hybrid of the RWD Kappa roadster platform (itself a derivative of the Sigma Cadillac architectue, Delta, and parts-bin rummaging) and the Delta small car platform, so GM can amortize the cost across a wide range of vehicles, INCLUDING high-buck Cadillacs. Ford could attempt to work similar magic with C2 and the RX8/Miata architecture, but then we run into amortization issues again. Ford can't sell this car as a Lincoln, leaving Jaguar (who probably doesn't even want to compete in this segment anymore) and Volvo (from whom self-respecting red-blooded young males avoid like the plague).

[ShockFX]

So basically, you want a small RWD sports sedan. Join the club. Having done a lot of soul-searching, I've determined my own ideal vehicle to be a BMW 535i with either a stick or the SMG. Therefore, most of my quasi-daily drivers have been variations on this theme. The only vehicle Ford has ever produced that has come close to this ideal was the 2000-2002 Lincoln LS V6 with the 5-speed manual. Right now, General Motors is developing a range of proper small RWD sports sedans, including a Pontiac, Saturn, and Cadillac. The Pontiac should be an incredible value, and I believe will be a very fun car to toss around town.

 

Then we reach the business proposition. A small RWD sedan is required for Cadillac, as GM is trying to out-BMW BMW. A small RWD is VERY helpful to Pontiac to rebuild their reputation as the sports division of GM, and will attract a lot of young blood to the brand. Hence, good for them. However, where does a small RWD sedan fit in at Ford? Certainly not Lincoln... you tell me the brand that's made famous by Continentals and Town Cars can sell a SMALL RWD sports sedan in the spirit of the 3-Series. Mercury and Ford, perhaps as a low volume supplemental model. A partnership with Volvo or Jaguar might work as well.

 

Then, how do we engineer it? The GM Alpha platform is a hybrid of the RWD Kappa roadster platform (itself a derivative of the Sigma Cadillac architectue, Delta, and parts-bin rummaging) and the Delta small car platform, so GM can amortize the cost across a wide range of vehicles, INCLUDING high-buck Cadillacs. Ford could attempt to work similar magic with C2 and the RX8/Miata architecture, but then we run into amortization issues again. Ford can't sell this car as a Lincoln, leaving Jaguar (who probably doesn't even want to compete in this segment anymore) and Volvo (from whom self-respecting red-blooded young males avoid like the plague).

 

Thank you wes, for getting EXACTLY what I'm trying to say. The further question is why doesn't Ford have a luxury brand that competes with Audi/BMW/MB/Infiniti/Acura/Lexus. Lincoln doesn't not really compete with anything except the MkZ against the Lexus ES, and the MkX against the RX330/MDX. FordNA has near zero presence in the luxury market. Volvos are great cars, but aren't considered "luxury" like the Japanese or German lux models. I know where this is going to get me, but don't think of it as "BMW", read the segments listed and tell me why Ford should not have a model for each segment. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:BMW_cars

[Pioneer]

Ford is a known name yes?

 

It sure is. And from what people "know" of it, they buy other makes of vehicles. Producing a lackluster product that doesn't differentiate itself from the competition will never change peoples perceptions.

[RichardJensen]

What? If you want a small RWD sedan, why did it take Wescoent to say it for you? Why not say, "Why doesn't Ford make a small RWD sedan?" Why not reference such concept sedans as the MKR?

 

Furthermore, why the references to AUDI and ACURA which do NOT make RWD sedans?

 

Finally, what part of your constant references to BMW should NOT cause me to think that you basically want a Ford BMW?

 

---

 

And my honest opinion is that the 'luxury performance' sedan is nothing more than Infiniti, Cadillac, and to a lesser extent Lexus, chasing BMW and doing a pretty miserable job at it.

 

Lincoln outsells Infiniti, Cadillac with the CTS is catching up with the outgoing 5-Series, and Lexus' volume product are the FWD RX & ES models.

 

Why the rags and enthusiasts should insist that -every- luxury sedan be some BMW knock-off puzzles me to no end.

[Edstock]

Lincoln doesn't not really compete with anything except the MkZ against the Lexus ES, and the MkX against the RX330/MDX.

 

You have a point, but 12 months from now or less, the S arrives, with a Lincoln "Flex" following and a re-done Z, so Lincoln will have quite a different market presence.

 

It just seems like it takes forever. A big hold-up has been an AWD transmission that can handle higher power, but the Getrag partnership should fix that for MY2K9. Then, you can build a 400hp Z/S with all the suspension goodies and the quick steering and giant brakes, or a 350hp Fusion. I just hope that Ford Racing parts are able to make it available at an affordable price to enthusiasts.

 

It should be remembered, though, that BMW and Audi are aggressively expanding into small cars, as is M-B, with its 200 minivan sold in Canada.

 

The point is, that maybe a future Lincoln should come from a Focus-size platform. Problem is, way too many people equate "luxury" with "large". Yet those MINI's are selling, along with fully-dressed A-4's and A-3's.

 

RWD? From the posts on BON, it appears that Ford has a task force working up the next generation RWD chassis. 4 years away? 3?

[MKII]

Ford cannot be a company that makes cars,

 

thanks for clearing that up.

[RichardJensen]

thanks for clearing that up.

And thanks for demonstrating you have nothing further to say.

[MKII]

And thanks for demonstrating you have nothing further to say.

No point to it. Even by my standards

[RichardJensen]

Wow. The quality of your last two posts here just...... What is this? You can't think of anything to say so you're just going to cherry pick from my posts?

 

Enjoy.

[wescoent]

What? If you want a small RWD sedan, why did it take Wescoent to say it for you? Why not say, "Why doesn't Ford make a small RWD sedan?" Why not reference such concept sedans as the MKR?

 

Furthermore, why the references to AUDI and ACURA which do NOT make RWD sedans?

 

Finally, what part of your constant references to BMW should NOT cause me to think that you basically want a Ford BMW?

 

---

 

And my honest opinion is that the 'luxury performance' sedan is nothing more than Infiniti, Cadillac, and to a lesser extent Lexus, chasing BMW and doing a pretty miserable job at it.

 

Lincoln outsells Infiniti, Cadillac with the CTS is catching up with the outgoing 5-Series, and Lexus' volume product are the FWD RX & ES models.

 

Why the rags and enthusiasts should insist that -every- luxury sedan be some BMW knock-off puzzles me to no end.

 

Some further thoughts:

 

The MKR represents more of a flagship style-leader 4-door coupe than a small RWD sedan, like the Mercedes CLS. A fashion statement rather than a sports sedan.

 

The BMW 3er and 5er are tough acts to follow, and a decidedly different proposition than say, the Mercedes C and E Class. The G35, A4, TL, and IS are all aimed squarely at the 3-Series, and as mentioned, all far short in one way or another. The MKZ, ES, and C-Class are more like junior versions of larger sedans (MKS, LS, and S), and capture their essence in a less expensive package. Therefore, one can choose between a variety of flavors of entry-level luxury, and while enthusiasts grovel at the 3-Series altar, there are many buyers who would prefer a car like the MKZ or ES.

 

Infiniti is a textbook example of getting product 100% right, and failing miserably in the market. The G35 and M35 can be considered among the best if not THE best cars in their class, yet sales are horrible. BMW has 25 years of fiercely loyal customers, a stellar reputation in the market among all age and demographics, and a global outlook, because they've spent the last 25 years basically building the same kinds of cars updated periodically. Even with all of that behind them, they aren't remarkably profitable, due to the incredibly high costs of development of manufacture of this type of car. Nissan and GM have both blown billions on developing a BMW business model for their luxury brands, and both have failed in sales and profits. Compare that to Mercedes, Lexus, Audi, and Acura, who all developed niche markets which they have built on, rather than mindlessly copying and chasing BMW's market. Lincoln is in the process of doing the same. And a compact sports sedan has no place in Lincoln's lineup.

[ShockFX]

What? If you want a small RWD sedan, why did it take Wescoent to say it for you? Why not say, "Why doesn't Ford make a small RWD sedan?" Why not reference such concept sedans as the MKR?

 

Furthermore, why the references to AUDI and ACURA which do NOT make RWD sedans?

 

Finally, what part of your constant references to BMW should NOT cause me to think that you basically want a Ford BMW?

 

Ok, I was making two points that maybe I mixed together too much. First, if Ford can build class leading sedans with great dynamics and style in Europe that get compared upward (that is the BMW reference), why can they not do that here with ANY of their cars?

 

Second, Ford is severly lacking in the entry level luxury segments and upward.

Segment Audi Acura BMW MB Infinity Lincoln Cadillac Lexus

Entry Small A3 RSX 1series A/B? - - BTS -

Exec Small A4 TSX 3series C G MkZ CTS IS/ES

Exec Medium A6 TL 5series E M MkS STS GS

Exec Large A8 RL 7series S Q Towncar? DTS? LS

 

These are the segments. For Lincoln to be successful, they should compete in them. In addition, competing means being cross shopped to at least a subset of the other cars in the segment. What do you compare the Lincolns to? Lincoln is closest to Acura in the sense that it is kind of in the segment but not really. Where are the conquests in the segment going to come from? Classify any way you want, Lincoln isn't even going to be considered. Is it performance like Infinity/BMW? German stately ness like Audi/MB? Is it Cadillac/Lexus like? You can MAYBE compare it to Acura, but is that what American Luxury is about? FWD sedans that have AWD optional? No manual transmission options? What is Lincoln other than a soon to be common grill?

The point is that Lincoln lacks the compelling entry models that bring people to a brand and then keep them there. Going from a Mazda6 to a MkZ is not going to happen. Going from a Fusion/Taurus to MkZ/MkS is still not a big change. Ford lacks a clear path through its models, something that using an updated 1999 Volvo platform with a new engine for a Lincoln flagship will not change.

 

And my honest opinion is that the 'luxury performance' sedan is nothing more than Infiniti, Cadillac, and to a lesser extent Lexus, chasing BMW and doing a pretty miserable job at it.

 

Lincoln outsells Infiniti, Cadillac with the CTS is catching up with the outgoing 5-Series, and Lexus' volume product are the FWD RX & ES models.

 

Why the rags and enthusiasts should insist that -every- luxury sedan be some BMW knock-off puzzles me to no end.

 

Lexus is so miserable that this made up brand became the best selling luxury brand in like 12 years. So miserable it's highly profitable.

Luxury performance is obviously a classification, but Lincoln doens't exactly compete in just plain "Luxury" with MB or Audi well either.

Lincoln outsells Infiniti on the strength of the Town Car as limos and rentals. I'm sure that is amazingly profitable for them, good argument.

 

I see you are going to turn this into FWD/RWD argument, but I'd rather avoid that. Do you think Lexus catchet is driven by the ES and the RX? No. Look at it this way: If you drive a C280 you say "I drive a Mercedes" if you drive a E350 you say "I drive a E350". See what I did there? No one wants to say "I drive a Lincoln". It's not too late to make Lincoln relevant to buyers under 50.

[NickF1011]

These are the segments. For Lincoln to be successful, they should compete in them. In addition, competing means being cross shopped to at least a subset of the other cars in the segment. What do you compare the Lincolns to? Lincoln is closest to Acura in the sense that it is kind of in the segment but not really. Where are the conquests in the segment going to come from? Classify any way you want, Lincoln isn't even going to be considered. Is it performance like Infinity/BMW? German stately ness like Audi/MB? Is it Cadillac/Lexus like? You can MAYBE compare it to Acura, but is that what American Luxury is about? FWD sedans that have AWD optional? No manual transmission options? What is Lincoln other than a soon to be common grill?

 

Why does Lincoln have to immitate another brand in order to be successful? They are middle of the pack as it is in sales amongst luxury brands and their sales are increasing, so obviously they are taking sales from SOMEBODY. People cross-shop a LOT of cars you might not think they would. Classifying vehicles is not black-and-white. Attempting to compare them as such, and basing your product plans on such a rigid structure is a surefire way to fail. Lincoln is finding new buyers for their new products. That's really all that matters.

[RichardJensen]

First, if Ford can build class leading sedans with great dynamics and style in Europe that get compared upward (that is the BMW reference), why can they not do that here with ANY of their cars?

 

Lexus is so miserable that this made up brand became the best selling luxury brand in like 12 years. So miserable it's highly profitable.

1) Go re-read reviews of the Fusion--or test drive an AWD model yourself. By a pretty hefty majority, the Fusion won both the 'style' and the 'fun to drive' aspects of the R&T and C&D 'Fusion challenge' tests. Worth noting: Fusion defeated the more powerful V6s in the Accord and Camry.

 

Point being: Fusion is better than you give it credit for. Especially with AWD. As far as comparing it upwards with BMW, well shoot, are you going to take Top Gear that seriously? In Europe there is, as there is here, on the ground, no comparison between the two.

 

2) Lexus' profits and volume come off two soft boulevardiers: the RX and the ES. The IS and GS combine for about half the volume of the RX.

 

When you talk about 'true luxury' and you mention Audi and MB, you are ignoring the highest volume seller in the 'true luxury' market: Lexus.

 

That's my point in a nutshell. Lexus got to be the biggest volume seller in the U.S. by giving buyers well crafted reliable 'luxurious' vehicles--vehicles that pamper them on their morning commute, etc. Not by giving them rip-roaring autobahn screamers with enough leather and gadgetry to qualify as 'luxury'.

[RichardJensen]

Exec Small A4 TSX 3series C G MkZ CTS IS/ES

I would compare interior measurements and overall length before putting the CTS & MKZ in the 'exec small' category.

 

In most dimensions, I believe they exceed the peers you've assigned them--excepting the Lexus ES.

 

Also the MKS will have a 115" wheelbase, and interior space that will likely be second only to the stretch Town Car. It will definitely be an 'exec large'

 

The difference is that you get a large Lincoln for a midsize price.

 

Not coincidentally, this is what Toyota did with Lexus.

 

Guess it worked out pretty well for them, huh?

[wescoent]

Lexus is so miserable that this made up brand became the best selling luxury brand in like 12 years. So miserable it's highly profitable.

Luxury performance is obviously a classification, but Lincoln doens't exactly compete in just plain "Luxury" with MB or Audi well either.

Lincoln outsells Infiniti on the strength of the Town Car as limos and rentals. I'm sure that is amazingly profitable for them, good argument.

 

I see you are going to turn this into FWD/RWD argument, but I'd rather avoid that. Do you think Lexus catchet is driven by the ES and the RX? No. Look at it this way: If you drive a C280 you say "I drive a Mercedes" if you drive a E350 you say "I drive a E350". See what I did there? No one wants to say "I drive a Lincoln". It's not too late to make Lincoln relevant to buyers under 50.

 

Lexus is hardly miserable, which is why Lincoln is using a roughly similar business model (and not unlike the business model Lincoln used for 40 years with great success).

 

Lincoln makes over $12,000 per Town Car sold at invoice... so whatever fleet discount applied doesn't put much of a dent in that.

 

Lexus's cachet is driven by its extremely reliable vehicles and stellar dealership experience combined with comfortable and competant luxury vehicles. Lexus's image leaders ARE the ES, RX, and LS. The IS, GS, LX, GX, and SC are niche vehicles that barely register on the sales radar. The ES, RX, and LS are where almost all Lexus customers have their excellent experiences that they tell their friends about, who buy them, and then trade on a NEW ES, RX, or LS. That's where Lexus's sales and profits are. The same is true for Cadillac, in the sense that almost all their sales are the CTS, DTS, and Escalade, with the rest of their lineup barely relevant.

 

As far as making Lincoln relevant, I know plenty of younger people who own MKZs, MKXs, and Navigators, and love them to death. It's just a matter of getting the right product to market. And let's be honest... over 75% of luxury car owners are over the age of 50.

[ShockFX]

Why does Lincoln have to immitate another brand in order to be successful? They are middle of the pack as it is in sales amongst luxury brands and their sales are increasing, so obviously they are taking sales from SOMEBODY. People cross-shop a LOT of cars you might not think they would. Classifying vehicles is not black-and-white. Attempting to compare them as such, and basing your product plans on such a rigid structure is a surefire way to fail. Lincoln is finding new buyers for their new products. That's really all that matters.

 

I'm 99% sure I said Lincoln needs to compete in segments to be successful, not they should copy other brands.

 

LINCOLN AND MERCURY BRAND AUGUST 2007 U.S. SALES

August Month % August CYTD %

2007 2006 Change 2007 2006 Change

Town Car 855 2,614 -67.3 24,969 26,989 -7.5

LS 0 745 -100.0 0 7,922 -100.0

MKZ 3,216 3,239 -0.7 22,948 21,938 4.6

Total Lincoln Cars 4,071 6,598 -38.3 47,917 56,849 -15.7

 

MKX 3,421 0 NA 23,145 0 NA

Navigator 2,163 1,374 57.4 15,765 15,053 4.7

Aviator 0 0 NA 0 1,711 -100.0

Mark LT 768 1,007 -23.7 5,858 8,519 -31.2

Total Lincoln Trucks 6,352 2,381 166.8 44,768 25,283 77.1

 

The MkX is driving sales. As it should, it is very competitive in the RX330 class of vehicles. Would you look at that, put a great car into the right SEGMENT and it does very very well.