2012 Crown Victoria & Town Car

[P71_CrownVic]

The last I checked too, most fleet Panthers are retired WELL before they even hit 100,000 miles, let alone several hundred thousand.

Are you kidding me? Take your blinders off. After the panther line does 100K of police work, they go on to do Taxi work...with very little maintenance.

 

 

I think the OLDEST Crown Vic Interceptors our county police force has are 2004's (hard to tell since they all freakin look the same, but that's going by a few officers I've spoken with)....I doubt many of them have yet exceeded 100,000, and if they have, they are likely slated for replacement.

 

It only takes a simple glance to see what year it is. And what is your point?

Edited October 24, 2007 by P71_CrownVic

[rmc523]

It was at the State Fair of Texas. I guess Dallas is more of a major city then Houston...

 

I hate it when you go to an auto show expecting to see the latest concepts and they aren't there.

[Traveler]

Maybe all the major cities shouldn't try to overlap their shows. Raleigh has broken into the top 50 U.S. cities and we still don't get concepts until they are probably 2-4 years old. By then, they are afterthoughts. As an example, just this past March we got the Shelby GR-1 in the polished aluminum body. The year before that, the Shelby Cobra concept. Remember the old orange 99 Dodge Charger concept that was based on the LH platform? We didn't get that one until 2003.

[rmc523]

Maybe all the major cities shouldn't try to overlap their shows. Raleigh has broken into the top 50 U.S. cities and we still don't get concepts until they are probably 2-4 years old. By then, they are afterthoughts. As an example, just this past March we got the Shelby GR-1 in the polished aluminum body. The year before that, the Shelby Cobra concept. Remember the old orange 99 Dodge Charger concept that was based on the LH platform? We didn't get that one until 2003.

Are you referring to the chrome type body on the GR-1? We got that one at the Ft. Lauderdale (or Miami, I don't remember which) show a few years ago. What year concept was that? An 05 or so? We didn't get it until a couple years after it's debut.

 

That's pretty bad about the Charger concept.

[Traveler]

Yeah, that chromy sports car. Always liked the basic shape, but I guess after the Ford GT, there really wasn't that much desire to consider anything remotely exotic to put the Blue Oval on.

 

The 99 Charger came along at a bad time. I read some time ago that the LH platform was actually intended to be flexible from FWD to RWD, but the desire for RWD cars were greatly diminished in the 90s so Chrysler stuck with FWD. The 99 Charger made use of the RWD configuration (finally) and showed off some flash in the pan. natural gas burning 4.6 SOHC V8, but the looks were pretty sharp and got attention. As most know, lots of people whined and complained about a four door Charger in 2005 but look at it now. Many people have grown to accept it and then Chrysler throws them a bone named, Challenger to appease those wanting a Mopar pony car. I'll have to say I admire the handling of the LX platform and its models built on it. Aside from Ram and Wrangler, its about the only thing Chrysler has done right in a long time.

[rmc523]

Yeah, that chromy sports car. Always liked the basic shape, but I guess after the Ford GT, there really wasn't that much desire to consider anything remotely exotic to put the Blue Oval on.

 

I like the shape of the GR-1 a lot. I'm not the biggest fan of the way the taillights were done, but I could live w/ them. I don't think it's that there's no desire to make a GT/GR-1 type car, I'm sure Ford would love to have a halo car. I think its the concentration on fixing the lineup and globalizing the company and the lack of funds b/c of this that is inhibiting any exotic sports car type vehicle production right now. That's what I think.

 

That said, the GT was/is an AMAZING car. They look AWESOME!!! I see one here an there every once and a while. I'll take a white one w/ blue stripes please!!

 

I also liked the debut ad for it....

 

 

I hope that link is right.

[NickF1011]

Are you kidding me? Take your blinders off. After the panther line does 100K of police work, they go on to do Taxi work...with very little maintenance.

 

 

 

 

It only takes a simple glance to see what year it is. And what is your point?

 

No reputable taxi service is buying former-police cruisers for service. Are YOU kidding ME? They don't want the headaches. The vast majority of ex-police cruisers are sent to auction where used car dealers and Panther Mafia-types snatch them up at super-discount rates.

 

My point is simple: Ford needs to replace the Panthers with something that will better serve both the retail and fleet markets and may actually have resale value worth a shit.

[Hemiman]

No reputable taxi service is buying former-police cruisers for service. Are YOU kidding ME? They don't want the headaches. The vast majority of ex-police cruisers are sent to auction where used car dealers and Panther Mafia-types snatch them up at super-discount rates.

 

My point is simple: Ford needs to replace the Panthers with something that will better serve both the retail and fleet markets and may actually have resale value worth a shit.

 

 

Wrong. Most Taxis ARE ex-cuisers, even in NYC where the Liverly specs are very strict, you'll see some CVPIs. In smaller cities, nearly all taxies are ex PD cars. PDs typicly run CVPI to 90K-110K. The taxi companies then run them to 300K. After that, they're used as "hangar queens" for parts. Finaly they end up in the junk yard, or in the hands of the Panther Mafia.

 

Why do you have such a contempt for this car?

 

As I've said before, there is no reason why the Taurus and the Panther can't coexist.

[Hemiman]

So is this guy like the guy who designs Aston Martins and the new Jag. He can only do one design?

 

 

No, you're thinking of J Mays.

Edited October 24, 2007 by Hemiman

[NickF1011]

Wrong. Most Taxis ARE ex-cuisers, even in NYC where the Liverly specs are very strict, you'll see some CVPIs. In smaller cities, nearly all taxies are ex PD cars. PDs typicly run CVPI to 90K-110K. The taxi companies then run them to 300K. After that, they're used as "hangar queens" for parts. Finaly they end up in the junk yard, or in the hands of the Panther Mafia.

 

Why do you have such a contempt for this car?

 

As I've said before, there is no reason why the Taurus and the Panther can't coexist.

 

The Taurus and a RWD sedan can co-exist....and I hope they do. But I sure as hell hope that RWD sedan is no longer a Panther.

 

Why do I have so much contept for them? Ask any Joe on the street what they think of a Crown Victoria....or Grand Marquis...or Town Car He'll generally call it a piece of shit reserved for taxi drivers, limos, and police. NOBODY has interest in these vehicles anymore, except fleets who can get them at a bargain basement discount, or people buying used who pay next to nothing for them because their resale value is so horrible. They are outdated as hell and give the entire Ford brand a black eye in the image department. Nobody else dares to foist such an outdated vehicle on the public. It makes Ford look like a company that is too inept to offer modern vehicles to its customers. The exact same can and is said about the Ranger. These two hangers-on to the old Ford need to both be replaced as quickly as possible.

[silvrsvt]

As I've said before, there is no reason why the Taurus and the Panther can't coexist.

 

The main reason they can't co-exisit is the Panther is going away...but not to say that another RWD non-panther car won't replace it....

 

but like I said before, is there enough sales to justifiy doing this? If they make a Mustang and Explorer based off it, sure, but if its just a sedan shared around the world with Austriala, I dunno.

[NickF1011]

but like I said before, is there enough sales to justifiy doing this? If they make a Mustang and Explorer based off it, sure, but if its just a sedan shared around the world with Austriala, I dunno.

 

Well, there will undoubtedly be a Mustang still in production. It would be foolish to build it again on its own platform, but apparently the D2C program has been profitable, though likely marginally. If D2C can make a profit, there's no reason that a fullsize RWD sedan can make a profit on its own too. It likely wouldn't be a sole model either. At the VERY least, you'll have a Lincoln variant using the platform as well. The Explorer is probably less likely.

 

If Ford can manage to put a Mustang, Ford RWD sedan, Lincoln RWD sedan, and possibly a Lincoln RWD coupe on the platform, that should be more than enough to sustain it. It's more likely that the Explorer will go back to its Ranger roots when the new global Ranger debuts, which as far as I know, is on its own platform.

[matthewq4b]

Double post See following one

 

Matthew

Edited October 24, 2007 by matthewq4b

[matthewq4b]

No reputable taxi service is buying former-police cruisers for service. Are YOU kidding ME? They don't want the headaches. The vast majority of ex-police cruisers are sent to auction where used car dealers and Panther Mafia-types snatch them up at super-discount rates.

 

My point is simple: Ford needs to replace the Panthers with something that will better serve both the retail and fleet markets and may actually have resale value worth a shit.

 

 

Your joking right?

 

95% of the hacks in western canada province are ex PI units The same goes for Toronto but the percentage their is not as high. In Canada 95% of all ex PI units end up as taxi cabs.

 

It is comical as hell watching all the cabbies fight over them at auction.

 

 

Matthew

[Hemiman]

Ask any Joe on the street what they think of a Crown Victoria....or Grand Marquis...or Town Car He'll generally call it a piece of shit reserved for taxi drivers, limos, and police. NOBODY has interest in these vehicles anymore, except fleets who can get them at a bargain basement discount, or people buying used who pay next to nothing for them because their resale value is so horrible. They are outdated as hell and give the entire Ford brand a black eye in the image department. Nobody else dares to foist such an outdated vehicle on the public. It makes Ford look like a company that is too inept to offer modern vehicles to its customers. The exact same can and is said about the Ranger. These two hangers-on to the old Ford need to both be replaced as quickly as possible.

 

 

So the Five Hundred should have been cancelled altogether, simply because no one thought it was cool? Same goes for the new Taurus, not many seem to think the re-named and improved Five Hundred is that cool either. That doesn't take away from the fact that it's a good car that does what it's designed to do very well. Like the Panther, all it really needs is a body that is actually interesting to look at.

 

The Panther is not "outdated as hell", as you state. When was the last time you were actually under one. Maybe you don't ever turn wrenches, but for those of us who do, the Panther's new suspension is quite impressive. Could the car use improvement? Yes, just as others have detailed here.

 

Ford has a good opportunity to make money on minimal investment with the Panther.

 

I'm pulling for both cars. I just hope Ford can get some inspired styling on both of them.

[P71_CrownVic]

Your joking right?

 

95% of the hacks in western canada province are ex PI units The same goes for Toronto but the percentage their is not as high. In Canada 95% of all ex PI units end up as taxi cabs.

 

It is comical as hell watching all the cabbies fight over them at auction.

Matthew

 

 

He's not joking...he just has no idea what he is talking about.

 

I am in the process of trying to find an article on Crown Vic longevity. The writer interviewed the owner of Checker Werks cab company in Chicago. They operate a fleet of 1,300 cabs, most if not all are ex-squads. The owner went on to say that when they get a CVPI from auction with 100K on the clock, they consider it brand new. All they do is a tune up and and take care of any blemishes in the body. They don't even change the tranny fluid. Over time, they have figured out that because the cars last so long without changing the fluid, it is not worth their $$$ to do it.

 

But they are crap cars right...

 

I had a guy stop me on my street and tell me that if I ever want to sell my car, to let him know because he has a friend who owns a cab company. He did not ask about the miles of the car, or if anything is wrong with it. Cabbies love these cars.

[silvrsvt]

The Panther is not "outdated as hell", as you state. When was the last time you were actually under one. Maybe you don't ever turn wrenches, but for those of us who do, the Panther's new suspension is quite impressive. Could the car use improvement? Yes, just as others have detailed here.

 

Ford has a good opportunity to make money on minimal investment with the Panther.

 

I'm pulling for both cars. I just hope Ford can get some inspired styling on both of them.

 

 

There are many problems with updating the Panther, first off is hard points for it make it hard to change the styling (esp with the long overhangs it has) to something more "modern" looking. Then all these modifications that need to be done would ruin whatever profitability that the car has in fleet sales. Then we get on the "Image" of these cars and well thats a turn off into itself. Overall I think Ford has done everything it can do "cheap" for the panthers and is just better off sending them to glue factory...

 

It would be far better for Ford, to just throw away everything and start with a fresh outlook on how a RWD car can be done with the knowledge they have.

[silvrsvt]

I am in the process of trying to find an article on Crown Vic longevity. The writer interviewed the owner of Checker Werks cab company in Chicago. They operate a fleet of 1,300 cabs, most if not all are ex-squads. The owner went on to say that when they get a CVPI from auction with 100K on the clock, they consider it brand new. All they do is a tune up and and take care of any blemishes in the body. They don't even change the tranny fluid. Over time, they have figured out that because the cars last so long without changing the fluid, it is not worth their $$$ to do it.

 

I had a guy stop me on my street and tell me that if I ever want to sell my car, to let him know because he has a friend who owns a cab company. He did not ask about the miles of the car, or if anything is wrong with it. Cabbies love these cars.

 

 

Playing the devils advocate here....keeping in my your typical RETAIL consumer in mind...who the hell cares how long the car will run? Most people buy a car and I'd assume most of them don't even have it paid off by the time they trade it in on a new car. Granted the CV is a great car for fleets, but is that where Ford is going to make money?

 

But they are crap cars right...

 

They offer nothing that your typical car buyer wants in a car...

[Hemiman]

There are many problems with updating the Panther, first off is hard points for it make it hard to change the styling (esp with the long overhangs it has) to something more "modern" looking. Then all these modifications that need to be done would ruin whatever profitability that the car has in fleet sales. Then we get on the "Image" of these cars and well thats a turn off into itself. Overall I think Ford has done everything it can do "cheap" for the panthers and is just better off sending them to glue factory...

 

It would be far better for Ford, to just throw away everything and start with a fresh outlook on how a RWD car can be done with the knowledge they have.

 

 

You and I will just have to dissagree on this one.

 

I think there is a need for a heavy duty car

 

I don't think it's THAT hard to update the Panther's body. MUCH MUCH MUCH easier than a unit car. No one is asking it to adopt the horrid Nissan Altima inspired, hunched over, cab forward look, that's so trendy right now. A simple cleaning up of the bland Little Tykes roundness would go a long way. Think pre-Bengal 5 or 7-series.

 

Front and rear over hangs are among the simplest changes to make, even on a unit car.

 

Proportionaly the Panther is ok and the "Hard points" are very close to where they would have to be for even an Interceptor body.

Edited October 24, 2007 by Hemiman

[silvrsvt]

I think there is a need for a heavy duty car

 

 

There is a market for one, but is it profitable and should Ford purse it?

[ShockFX]

There is a market for one, but is it profitable and should Ford purse it?

 

I'm a market of one for a car with two steering wheels in the back seats painted neon pink with Alcantra Leather interior. Damn Ford for not serving this market.

[matthewq4b]

He's not joking...he just has no idea what he is talking about.

 

I am in the process of trying to find an article on Crown Vic longevity. The writer interviewed the owner of Checker Werks cab company in Chicago. They operate a fleet of 1,300 cabs, most if not all are ex-squads. The owner went on to say that when they get a CVPI from auction with 100K on the clock, they consider it brand new. All they do is a tune up and and take care of any blemishes in the body. They don't even change the tranny fluid. Over time, they have figured out that because the cars last so long without changing the fluid, it is not worth their $$$ to do it.

 

But they are crap cars right...

 

I had a guy stop me on my street and tell me that if I ever want to sell my car, to let him know because he has a friend who owns a cab company. He did not ask about the miles of the car, or if anything is wrong with it. Cabbies love these cars.

 

 

Well you can add my 92 GM to the fray for longevity. Over 600K miles And lot of those miles have been over back country oil lease roads, The tranny went out of it a while back. (the orginal) And even though the car was well beyond the point of pratically being considered road worthy I had the orginal rebuilt and I stuffed it back in. The Old girl would never pass an inspection As the body is complety shot but she still still runs great and will clip along at 100 MPH with out a hesistation.

 

Thank god for BOF lol.

 

If the car had not spent a couple winters in Southern Ont with the salt, and had not been subjected to the industrial fall out that happens in some of the places I end up at with work. She proboly would stil be good for anouther decade. Other than the tranny. I have not put one mechanical part in it other than wear out items (brakes rotors belts thermotats and shocks ) in the last 10 years. BTW the tranny fluid was replaced only once in it's life. Now it needs motor mounts and new front springs but it will never see those now. The power train is eventually going to end up in a 60's galaxie. And the rest of the car will end up becoming sewer lids,structural steel or some thing of the sort.

 

It by far has been the best vehicle I have every owned period. And even more amazing considering it was one of the very first regular production units units off the line for the 92 modle year with a build date of Jan 1991.

 

Hard to belive the car is now almost 17 years old. Mind you she looks every bit her 17 years old. With many dents and scrapes> the car has been in no less than 5 accidents and numourous bumps and bruises. It has been buried up to the chassis in Alberta Clay numerous times. 2 of which were fairly severe. I rear ended a ranger about 5 or 6years that resulted in a buckeld rad support a cracked header panel and busted grill on the GM the ranger did not fair so well and ended up with a bent and folded frame and had to towed away.

 

Just befor the tranny packed it in. A smoked a 60yard dumpster length wise right on the corner , my fault really, going to fast for the road conditons But I had no idea the road was so slick that you could not stand up on it. I slid in to it back wards I Hit it hard enough that my hands were flung off the steering wheel over my head behind me (My shoulders were sore for good 2weeks afterwards) the rad was knocked out of it's mounts and it moved a half full 60 yard dumpster bin. The car ended up with a bent bumper rebar a cracked center lens and a small dint in the trunk lid, the rad was just bolted back in place under it's mounts later that week. These things are built like tanks. If it had been a unit car both accidents would have more than likly written the car off. The dumpster inceident for sure. But the chassis was designed in the era of 5MPH bumber regs so that certainly helped.

 

 

The white shirt black tie wearing engineers that designed the panthers in the early-mid and late 70's sure knew what the hell they were doing. I doubt we will see anouther auto chassis with this kind of durability and production longenvity ever again.

 

 

Matthew

[matthewq4b]

There is a market for one, but is it profitable and should Ford purse it?

 

 

For that alone no. But look a the LX cars it was a while back you were saying the market RWD full size sedan is dead and buried.

 

 

The car would cost way less to update then to build a ground up replacement. I,m not going to get in to the whole econmics of it. I've done that repeatdly on here.

 

Is it viable from profitablity stand point.

 

Absolutly it is. When the cars should have gotten an upadate was rght when Ford was ignoring all it's cars. The Panthers got no different treament than any thing else at that time.

 

The LX cars have proven that their is still amarket for these cars. Yes it is fleet heavy segment. But so is the P/U and Full van size market. That is an advantage as well. as you do not HAVE to have ground up redesigns every 5 years. The current LX cars chassis is now going on 4 years old with no signs of major improvements any time soon.

 

 

The changes needed to improve the cars is not bank busting. as for hard points. well look at the first gen and second Gan panthers body's absolutly worlds apart. yet not One hard point or body mount location was changed.

 

Also since it a BOF Most all the body mount brackets are welded to the frame. Need to move them then just weld them else where, The only one that can not be readily moved is the front passenger comparmartment but regardless of what stlly of body is stuffed on the chassis that one if not going to move.

 

The chassis wheel base can be lenthened or shortened with no fuss. And the rear over hang is one of the Panthers biggest assets. 75MPH rear impact resistinace something no other car any where can boost. It allows for a huge trunk that can swallow articals that will fit in no other car on the market. I would much rather have the depth of the panther than the length that is avalible in the Charger, the trunk on the Charger is a Pain in the ass. The opening is way too small (like most new cars) and it is not deep enough, even though it looks like it was kicked in the ass to give a deeper truck.

 

 

Rarely have I come cross an artical that will not go in the trunck of the GM. the trunk is as wide as most new cars are deep, the trunk is 5' wide behind the fuel tank and 4' 3" above the fuel tank with an over all lenght over 4' above the fuel tank the trunck is 32" deep. Hell I have even carried 4x8 plywood my trunk. Yes the lid needs to be tied shut and you need to flag the over hanging part but it can be done. If the seats were pass through you could proboly carry a 4x8 sheet of ply wood and close the trunk.

 

Ford is ging to need a ground breaking unit chassis in both strength, weight and production cost to properly replace the panther. And that is going to cost a shit load more to develop than Upgrading the exsisting panther chassis.

 

 

Matthew

Edited October 24, 2007 by matthewq4b

[P71_CrownVic]

Playing the devils advocate here....keeping in my your typical RETAIL consumer in mind...who the hell cares how long the car will run? Most people buy a car and I'd assume most of them don't even have it paid off by the time they trade it in on a new car. Granted the CV is a great car for fleets, but is that where Ford is going to make money?

Ford is not going to make money...but it's not the car's fault. Ford let the Panther platform die...and it will be their loss.

 

They offer nothing that your typical car buyer wants in a car...

 

They do. They are reliable, durable, efficient, easy to work on, etc. Sure they don't have fancy gimmicks like SYNC...but all of that stuff could be added.

 

Ideally, I would like to see the TC continue on as a limo, and the CV continue on as the Police Interceptor. The hole is already 5.5 feet deep for the Panthers (retail wise), so there is no way that they will return to the retail market. But I think that they can survive (and make Ford money) as fleet units.

 

What is even more disturbing, once the TC goes 6 feet under or fleet only, Lincoln becomes a badge...not a brand.

[NickF1011]

So the Five Hundred should have been cancelled altogether, simply because no one thought it was cool? Same goes for the new Taurus, not many seem to think the re-named and improved Five Hundred is that cool either. That doesn't take away from the fact that it's a good car that does what it's designed to do very well. Like the Panther, all it really needs is a body that is actually interesting to look at.

 

The Panther is not "outdated as hell", as you state. When was the last time you were actually under one. Maybe you don't ever turn wrenches, but for those of us who do, the Panther's new suspension is quite impressive. Could the car use improvement? Yes, just as others have detailed here.

 

Ford has a good opportunity to make money on minimal investment with the Panther.

 

I'm pulling for both cars. I just hope Ford can get some inspired styling on both of them.

 

The Five Hundred/Taurus certainly could have been done better. However, as a shared chassis, the costs associated with keeping them up to date will undoubtedly be lower than trying to keep the Panthers modern. Heck, Ford has already showen they can't keep them modern. And yes, I'm aware of all the "under-the-skin" changes the Panthers have gone through, but frankly, RETAIL customers (you know, the ones you actually make money from) don't give a crap about what's underneath the skin. They want a modern-looking car with a modern interior. The Taurus, while rather bland, is at least modern.

 

The opportunities Ford has to make money with the Panthers is dwindling rapidly. With all of the changes that would be necessary to thoroughly bring it up-to-date with competitors, those huge profit margins it currently enjoys (which no one has offered any proof recently by the way) will go down the tubes.

 

I'm pulling for the resurgence of a RWD Ford sedan too, but I'm pretty certain that it won't be a Panther.

 

As for the taxi fleets.....I'm sure several of them are former patrol cars, but are there enough retired patrol cars out there to satisfy the needs of the taxi industry? I doubt it. Plenty of them are bought new.

Edited October 24, 2007 by NickF1011