Trades bidding on work info

[atalldaisy]

Then you guys should take your committeeman out back and whip their ass! They are there to represent you not do what they feel like doing!!

Hey I've got it! If you can't whip any of the comiteeman, then whip ole 2-dogs ass! He looks like a big pussy to me! I know he's out of shape, look at that belly!

[nvsked]

Hey I'm a tradesman and this suck my ass.So all the rest of you can suck my ass as well.

 

 

"suck my ass"... wouldn't know where to start... You're a very big ASS, :shades: have another drink, eventually you'll have a coherent moment

[knowledge is power]

Where does it say that full utilization is 40 hrs. You need to make the business case, if cash strapped Ford can afford to pay vendors $77.00 an hour or more to fix a piece of equipment, why can't it afford to pay it's own worker $32.00. We have trades laidoff throughout this company, and Ford is entertaining bringing in contractors for repair work. What happened to the new language on outsourcing, what's next, are we going to layoff production and bring in vendors to build vehicles.

 

accurate bid=accurate number of people to do job X number of hours to repair X $32.00 + material and rental equipment if needed. Also known as Time and Material. Vendors need to make profit on job, Ford needs to save money, I'm sure some company executive is due a bonus or plane fair or something

This sounds good, but at our plant management has total disregard for the contract! Our skilled trades Rep wouldn't give labor clearance for an outside contractor to come in and do some work, siting that we could do it. Management flat out told him "Fine don't sign it. We're still going to bring in the outside contractor and have him do the work. File a grievance! " Then they laugh about it. Our Skilled Trades Rep tried going to International about it (Chairman seemingly No Help!), Rep was told not to call him anymore. Go through the Chairman and he'll contact him (KEMP), if he needs to. Chain of command sounds great, if it is working and everyone is doing their job and not passing the buck!

[nvsked]

This sounds good, but at our plant management has total disregard for the contract! Our skilled trades Rep wouldn't give labor clearance for an outside contractor to come in and do some work, siting that we could do it. Management flat out told him "Fine don't sign it. We're still going to bring in the outside contractor and have him do the work. File a grievance! " Then they laugh about it. Our Skilled Trades Rep tried going to International about it (Chairman seemingly No Help!), Rep was told not to call him anymore. Go through the Chairman and he'll contact him (KEMP), if he needs to. Chain of command sounds great, if it is working and everyone is doing their job and not passing the buck!

 

FILE THE GRIEVANCE!! FOLLOW DUE PROCESS!! USE UAW constitution if needed.... and pick some names and add UAW.org to your mail.... Good Luck!

Edited January 28, 2008 by nvsked

[skittet150]

I was under the impression that when ford trades do the work, their hours are charged to the vehicle or part they produce at their location. This makes the Harbour report look worse. When contractors do the work it is charged to a seperate account and doesn't affect the Harbour report. This puts in-house trades

at an immediate disadvantage, regardless of how much lower their bid is compared to contractors. Also, the maintenance engineers I have seen don't know how

or don't want to manage projects or they simply don't want to take responsibility for projects. They send jobs to contractors before we get a chance. I have seen

project work (overtime) decline steadily over the last few years. Am I right, or is it just my plant?

Anybody who really thinks that is true needs thier head examined! Money is money, and it is pretty clear that if you can keep it in house, and if it is managed correctly with a supervisor or foreman who has a clue, not to mention some type of credible maintenace background, it will be cheaper to do. I would like to know how many plants have been offering Master elecricians in thier electrical group the opertunity to use thier liscenses to pull permits and keep the work in house. I know of a few places like Romeo, Dearborn. Anybody else? Would love to hear from you. It is a big responsibility, and you shold be commended for it.

[level]

Thank you for your responses.

Level, My question specifically is a targeted part replacement on a large machine. This is about a 6 week job. The company is stating that the trades are all fully utilized. (They work 40-48hrs/wk). The company is reluctant to even allow my local to bid, from what I'm told. I realize its difficult to utilize a new contract, but I want U.A.W. trades doing U.A.W. trades work. I need the help of anyone with info as I/we have no idea how to even come up with an accurate bid. I would like to see the region offer classes on "Outsource Reduction Methods" that cover bidding, JSP utilization, and etc. Thanks once again to all that replied.

 

There is language in the new contract on business case wage rates. You are entitled, by the end of january (now) to have the bid rates to use for skilled trades for the next year on any business case.

 

You surely have a tradesmen that can bid work? Come up with the hours, figure out the required timing, ei. saturday hours, sunday hours. and multiply times the hourly rate from the controllers office. It is not 32.00. It will vary from plant to plant based on the number of people paying for active worker fringe rate.

 

Then come up with a dollar amount. If your business case shows you will save money, you should appeal to the plant to retain the work based on cost savings.

 

You will get support if you can do it in the required timing for the same or cheaper money!! But you must have the business case using the contract rates in your hand when demanding the work!

 

That proves

#1. You will save Ford money, and

#2. You can do it in the required timing, and

#3. It is in the best interests of the trades workforce

 

with that in hand I would scream from the highest mountain until I received the work.. without it, I would just shut-up.

[paris]

There is language in the new contract on business case wage rates. You are entitled, by the end of january (now) to have the bid rates to use for skilled trades for the next year on any business case.

 

You surely have a tradesmen that can bid work? Come up with the hours, figure out the required timing, ei. saturday hours, sunday hours. and multiply times the hourly rate from the controllers office. It is not 32.00. It will vary from plant to plant based on the number of people paying for active worker fringe rate.

 

Then come up with a dollar amount. If your business case shows you will save money, you should appeal to the plant to retain the work based on cost savings.

 

You will get support if you can do it in the required timing for the same or cheaper money!! But you must have the business case using the contract rates in your hand when demanding the work!

 

That proves

#1. You will save Ford money, and

#2. You can do it in the required timing, and

#3. It is in the best interests of the trades workforce

 

with that in hand I would scream from the highest mountain until I received the work.. without it, I would just shut-up.

And by the way, if you are NOT the plant chairman, don't even bother trying to get the number from your controller. If you ARE the chairman, you will still need lots of luck and probably a call from the International Union.

[level]

And by the way, if you are NOT the plant chairman, don't even bother trying to get the number from your controller. If you ARE the chairman, you will still need lots of luck and probably a call from the International Union.

 

Now you know better than that.

 

The controller will give it to the chairman and the skilled trades rep. If the Company can't or won't live up to the contract and provide what it agreed to provide, then it will be dealt with also.

 

Already trying to weasel out of what was agreed to! Figures! And I can't even call you a "company" man anymore!

[paris]

Now you know better than that.

 

The controller will give it to the chairman and the skilled trades rep. If the Company can't or won't live up to the contract and provide what it agreed to provide, then it will be dealt with also.

 

Already trying to weasel out of what was agreed to! Figures! And I can't even call you a "company" man anymore!

Realistically, the best bet for a facility to EFFECTIVELLY bid on work will be to develop a relationship with their engineering department. Many of those guys are very willing to assist the union folks. However, if you bid the work, and are granted the work, you still have to deliver what you have bid. In other words, if you say that the union can do the job in 160 man hours, you MUST do it in that many hours or the engineer may be "reluctant" to help you again. Beware! Make sure your trades people "buy in" to these agreements. I have seen instances where the "actual" labor was twice what the union said it would be. That usually ends up with a mad engineer who is VERY reluctant to help a second time.

[level]

Realistically, the best bet for a facility to EFFECTIVELLY bid on work will be to develop a relationship with their engineering department. Many of those guys are very willing to assist the union folks. However, if you bid the work, and are granted the work, you still have to deliver what you have bid. In other words, if you say that the union can do the job in 160 man hours, you MUST do it in that many hours or the engineer may be "reluctant" to help you again. Beware! Make sure your trades people "buy in" to these agreements. I have seen instances where the "actual" labor was twice what the union said it would be. That usually ends up with a mad engineer who is VERY reluctant to help a second time.

 

All very true. Why so helpful? Ford stress all gone now?

[paris]

All very true. Why so helpful? Ford stress all gone now?

Level,

I dont know who you must think I am. Something that I know though, is that you are NOT who you are trying to pass yourself off as. I must hand it to you though, you do a lot of reading on the master agreements.

Do you live in Canada?

[wakeup]

Realistically, the best bet for a facility to EFFECTIVELLY bid on work will be to develop a relationship with their engineering department. Many of those guys are very willing to assist the union folks. However, if you bid the work, and are granted the work, you still have to deliver what you have bid. In other words, if you say that the union can do the job in 160 man hours, you MUST do it in that many hours or the engineer may be "reluctant" to help you again. Beware! Make sure your trades people "buy in" to these agreements. I have seen instances where the "actual" labor was twice what the union said it would be. That usually ends up with a mad engineer who is VERY reluctant to help a second time.

 

 

The Engineers in our plant ARE UAW folks ....so it makes info alot better :flexing: ...from skilled to production.

 

We have seen a measuable increace in production between the 3 parties. Only if we could get that 4th elusive part...Management...cough cough...to get on board..we would be rockin.

 

Seems like the hourly UAW guys are willing to do more for the Engineers and vice versa when they are all on the same team...UAW/FORD. :happy feet: . Makes sense don't it?

[paris]

The Engineers in our plant ARE UAW folks ....so it makes info alot better :flexing: ...from skilled to production.

 

We have seen a measuable increace in production between the 3 parties. Only if we could get that 4th elusive part...Management...cough cough...to get on board..we would be rockin.

 

Seems like the hourly UAW guys are willing to do more for the Engineers and vice versa when they are all on the same team...UAW/FORD. :happy feet: . Makes sense don't it?

If it works, dont try to fix it. Im ok with that. Oops, I wasn't supposed to say that.

[nvsked]

There is language in the new contract on business case wage rates. You are entitled, by the end of january (now) to have the bid rates to use for skilled trades for the next year on any business case.

 

You surely have a tradesmen that can bid work? Come up with the hours, figure out the required timing, ei. saturday hours, sunday hours. and multiply times the hourly rate from the controllers office. It is not 32.00. It will vary from plant to plant based on the number of people paying for active worker fringe rate.

 

Then come up with a dollar amount. If your business case shows you will save money, you should appeal to the plant to retain the work based on cost savings.

 

You will get support if you can do it in the required timing for the same or cheaper money!! But you must have the business case using the contract rates in your hand when demanding the work!

 

That proves

#1. You will save Ford money, and

#2. You can do it in the required timing, and

#3. It is in the best interests of the trades workforce

 

with that in hand I would scream from the highest mountain until I received the work.. without it, I would just shut-up.

 

WOW Where to start.....

 

It is not 32.00.... Yeah I know, but most often when dealing with plant management teams, they are way out in left field with cost estimates, so if their not going to use accurate numbers then why should we. Plus

this is the first discussion that I can recall on FIXEDtrade bid rates; although, it's about time. Typically VO comes out with a job spec and then says the negotiated wage rate for this job is $77.00 a hr for labor. So to find the profit margin in the job, all you need to do is visit (outside trade) local web site and subtract their wage rate from bid spec and you have profit

 

You surely have a tradesmen that can bid work? Is this a question or are you throwing stones...

What is the UAW doing, to better position the skilled trades work force to meet the needs of the 21st century. Maybe some of the organizing money should be spent on education and training, again check outside trades website see how many training classes are held at nominal fee's.

 

You are entitled, by the end of January (now) to have the bid rates to use for skilled trades for the next year on any business case.

Again, what set of checks and balances has the international set in place to ensure that the labor rates are available. What is the process for checking the labor rates!!

 

You will get support if you can do it in the required timing for the same or cheaper money!! But you must have the business case using the contract rates in your hand when demanding the work!

 

WELL THEN SHOW ME THE MONEY!! aka THE LABOR RATES...

 

#2. You can do it in the required timing, and ...Great the biggest concern on any project, is being able to navigate the Ford purchasing system, getting the PAR released from purchasing and once the funding reaches the plant getting the Controllers office to release the money, How do you spell BUREAUCRACY

 

#3. It is in the best interests of the trades workforce ** A WHAT?** You'll have to define this one... What are the metrics, need to make sure we're one the same page. One metric I would use sustained growth...

 

P.S. I definitely agree with your comment in your last sentence

Edited February 1, 2008 by nvsked

[nvsked]

WOW Where to start.....

 

It is not 32.00....

Edited February 1, 2008 by nvsked

[Westside]

WOW Where to start.....

 

It is not 32.00.... Yeah I know, but most often when dealing with plant management teams, they are way out in left field with cost estimates, so if their not going to use accurate numbers then why should we. Plus

this is the first discussion that I can recall on FIXEDtrade bid rates; although, it's about time. Typically VO comes out with a job spec and then says the negotiated wage rate for this job is $77.00 a hr for labor. So to find the profit margin in the job, all you need to do is visit (outside trade) local web site and subtract their wage rate from bid spec and you have profit

 

You surely have a tradesmen that can bid work? Is this a question or are you throwing stones...

What is the UAW doing, to better position the skilled trades work force to meet the needs of the 21st century. Maybe some of the organizing money should be spent on education and training, again check outside trades website see how many training classes are held at nominal fee's.

 

You are entitled, by the end of January (now) to have the bid rates to use for skilled trades for the next year on any business case.

Again, what set of checks and balances has the international set in place to ensure that the labor rates are available. What is the process for checking the labor rates!!

 

You will get support if you can do it in the required timing for the same or cheaper money!! But you must have the business case using the contract rates in your hand when demanding the work!

 

WELL THEN SHOW ME THE MONEY!! aka THE LABOR RATES...

 

#2. You can do it in the required timing, and ...Great the biggest concern on any project, is being able to navigate the Ford purchasing system, getting the PAR released from purchasing and once the funding reaches the plant getting the Controllers office to release the money, How do you spell BUREAUCRACY

 

#3. It is in the best interests of the trades workforce ** A WHAT?** You'll have to define this one... What are the metrics, need to make sure we're one the same page. One metric I would use sustained growth...

 

P.S. I definitely agree with your comment in your last sentence

 

 

 

You are falling into the companys trap

 

They should compare your hourly rate with fringes added in at about $60-$64 per hour straight time O/T falls down to about the regular base rate because all fringes are paid on 40 hours, not $77. Your controller should give you this rate since it is required in the new agreement. Then they throw out the outside contractors wages about $50 per hour which is untrue. The company and the outside contractor bidding will hide the fringes on you and say these guys are paid $45-50 per hour. The contractor is smart and will hide his fringes also like gloves, equipment rentals, tool allowances, travel expenses, equipment depreciation, and will also make a profit on the manpower he gets from the hall. Then the biggest scam is the smart contractor will hide labor cost in his material bid to show a lower hourly rate not to mention the profit he makes on materials.

 

The hourly rate for contractors are $95-105 per hour when all of the smoke clears.

 

Do not get caught in the war on rates. There are too many hidden items. You must bid the complete job.

 

You have all of the tools you need in the agreement.......Use them.

 

Good Luck

[level]

Level,

I dont know who you must think I am. Something that I know though, is that you are NOT who you are trying to pass yourself off as. I must hand it to you though, you do a lot of reading on the master agreements.

Do you live in Canada?

 

Once again, everyone on this thread knows I have not passed myself off to be anything.

 

However, there are quite a few of them who know exactly who and what I am.

 

Like I said, what does it matter?

 

Apparently you don't like real information given to the membership, cause that is all I do. Fair, honest info.

 

You, on the other hand are like Dr. Jekyll and Mr Hyde. Half the time you are poking and taunting the union members, and half the time when your tranquilizers kick in, you give an honest opinion.

 

Like I said, you stated you were going to go away for a year and not post. How about start now?

[level]

WOW Where to start.....

 

It is not 32.00.... Yeah I know, but most often when dealing with plant management teams, they are way out in left field with cost estimates, so if their not going to use accurate numbers then why should we. Plus

this is the first discussion that I can recall on FIXEDtrade bid rates; although, it's about time. Typically VO comes out with a job spec and then says the negotiated wage rate for this job is $77.00 a hr for labor. So to find the profit margin in the job, all you need to do is visit (outside trade) local web site and subtract their wage rate from bid spec and you have profit

 

All business cases have a fixed rate now by contractual language. It is around $60.60 straight time $47.00 at 1 1/2 time and $63.00 on double time. New contract rates will vary slightly from plant to plant. Project bid specs do not apply

 

You surely have a tradesmen that can bid work? Is this a question or are you throwing stones...

What is the UAW doing, to better position the skilled trades work force to meet the needs of the 21st century. Maybe some of the organizing money should be spent on education and training, again check outside trades website see how many training classes are held at nominal fee's.

 

No. Not throwing stones. I am very serious about this stuff. Very serious. Live and breath it.

You can use technical skills money, or local nickel to send project coordinators to estimating classes, project management software classes etc... if you need it, use the training funds at the plant and national level. That is what they are for.

 

You are entitled, by the end of January (now) to have the bid rates to use for skilled trades for the next year on any business case.

Again, what set of checks and balances has the international set in place to ensure that the labor rates are available. What is the process for checking the labor rates!!

 

The plant controller, by contract must provide these rates to the plant chairman by the end of January each year. See "Skilled trades wage rates for business cases" page 330-331C. If your chairman demands them, he will get them. It is language, and they are good for one year.

 

You will get support if you can do it in the required timing for the same or cheaper money!! But you must have the business case using the contract rates in your hand when demanding the work!

 

WELL THEN SHOW ME THE MONEY!! aka THE LABOR RATES...

 

#2. You can do it in the required timing, and ...Great the biggest concern on any project, is being able to navigate the Ford purchasing system, getting the PAR released from purchasing and once the funding reaches the plant getting the Controllers office to release the money, How do you spell BUREAUCRACY

 

That is the system, learn it live it, love to hate it.

 

#3. It is in the best interests of the trades workforce ** A WHAT?** You'll have to define this one... What are the metrics, need to make sure we're one the same page. One metric I would use sustained growth...

 

I was referring to Article IV section 8. The company should consider, in light of all attendent circumstances, the best interests of ford employees versus a contractor.

 

P.S. I definitely agree with your comment in your last sentence

[level]

You are falling into the companys trap

 

They should compare your hourly rate with fringes added in at about $60-$64 per hour straight time O/T falls down to about the regular base rate because all fringes are paid on 40 hours, not $77. Your controller should give you this rate since it is required in the new agreement. Then they throw out the outside contractors wages about $50 per hour which is untrue. The company and the outside contractor bidding will hide the fringes on you and say these guys are paid $45-50 per hour. The contractor is smart and will hide his fringes also like gloves, equipment rentals, tool allowances, travel expenses, equipment depreciation, and will also make a profit on the manpower he gets from the hall. Then the biggest scam is the smart contractor will hide labor cost in his material bid to show a lower hourly rate not to mention the profit he makes on materials.

 

The hourly rate for contractors are $95-105 per hour when all of the smoke clears.

 

Do not get caught in the war on rates. There are too many hidden items. You must bid the complete job.

 

You have all of the tools you need in the agreement.......Use them.

 

Good Luck

 

 

Great post. The tools are there, but it seems we need to have a quick overview on their use so they can use them effectively. The highlights were not enough info on "how to use" such language.

[nvsked]

Great post. The tools are there, but it seems we need to have a quick overview on their use so they can use them effectively. The highlights were not enough info on "how to use" such language.

 

 

Completely agree!!

 

P.S. BTW have seen the nickle fund used, but not directed at trades. Which is a problem when a plant has 5000 members, and only about 5% trades. Majority rules or plant politics same difference