focus05 Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 It is obvious where you sit in the U.S. food chain! I live in the state hardest hit by these free trade agreements that you charish, and those flat panel T.V.'s you like to mention mean a 6 year commitment to being a slave to pay for whether the purchasers know it or not even at their low build costs. If everyone makes $7.00 to $10.00 who will be buying these big ticket items in the future? What next high return retail market will these items be sold in? Obviously Americans cannot afford them anymore in the volumes they once did! They never would have owned them if it were not for the availability of easy credit. Your veiw of the economy is unsustainable, and many of these luxury items will go no longer be sold (at least in the U.S.) due to lack of income to support their MSRP! Who are you, Mark Feilds, Bill Ford? You are not the average user. You have an agenda, but you don't realize the consiquences of continueing the way we are. There is no liquidity in the market place anymore! People buy stupidly things they can never pay for, because they don't have the necessary income to support them. You and people like you are enslaving the American public, via they're ignorance and your greed. How long can it continue without colapse, how long? We have people with master's degrees unemployed and without prospects, how long do you think you can point to education as the answer before people know they are getting screwed? Forgive me for being offended, but I'm hardly Mark Fields or Bill Ford. Your characterization is almost an outright insult. I've worked my butt off for the last 10 years putting myself through a private university and working hard at my job - far longer hours and tons more travel than you can probably imagine - so that I can stay ahead of the Tigers in Asia and even my own cohorts in the U.S. Economics is about competition, and we either embrace and excel at it, or we fail. I intend to succeed, thanks. That's it, because everything else I've tried to write is mildly insulting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarShark Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 (edited) Why does everyone always equate the term "service sector economy" to "working at Wal-Mart"? Service sector also includes the vast majority of medical and information technology jobs, which are amongst the hottest and well-paying markets to be in right now. Companies will always need computers and people will always be sick. Those jobs aren't going anywhere.My nurse managing mother and pediatrician father agree with you, Nick, and this future health educator does, too. Looks like we're back to education. As far as I'm concerned, the squeezing of the middle class lifestyle is a long time coming. The availability of credit and raiding of home equity throughout the 90s artificially inflated it. The bubble's bursting again. Basically everything put forth from Furious and his cohorts is just the same tired protectionist rhetoric. Edited March 10, 2008 by CarShark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 My nurse managing mother and pediatrician father agree with you, Nick, and this future health educator does, too. Looks like we're back to education. As far as I'm concerned, the squeezing of the middle class lifestyle is a long time coming. The availability of credit and raiding of home equity throughout the 90s artificially inflated it. The bubble's bursting again. Basically everything put forth from Furious and his cohorts is just the same tired protectionist rhetoric. It comes down to personal responsibility. I've got a mortgage as most Americans do (a 30-year fixed, because I actually cared about my credit score before I bought). But other than that, I don't owe anybody a dime. My cars are paid off. My credit cards have zero balances. My education is paid for up front. I don't have or need a home equity loan because I do what I have to do to keep myself cash solvent. Yes, I know there are certain situations where people will always be required to go into debt. Illness, injury, and other crises are sometimes unavoidable, and I feel for people in those situations. But to the people who are in debt because they wanted that new Lexus or because they needed to get a bigger HDTV than their neighbors, I'm sorry, I have zero pity for you and your problems. In fact, you annoy me for making my life more difficult. Please move out of my neighborhood. You obviously can't afford it. Stop pretending like you can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 Just a stupid side point to this whole Industry jobs vs "service" jobs...the class I'm taking now states that according to the UN, the development of the "service" economy in a country is paramount to its being ranked as a Developed country. Both Mexico and China only rate as newly industrialized countries, which is a notch or two below a developed country. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kev-Mo Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 (edited) Americans couldn't afford half of what we do if everything was made here. Might be sad but it's the truth. A lot of the stuff we buy like clothes are made somewhere else and we pay lower prices because they are cheaper to make in another country due to lower wages. Additonally, like it or not, the big salaries are in service areas, not in manufacturing (unless you are managing or in a top executive position ...). Tertiary economies allow you to make more money, but it also means we're heavily dependent on other countries for many of the goods we like. Of course, globalization is behind all of this, and that is too simple of an explanation. Nonetheless, maybe John should stop looking at traditional jobs and start looking at new jobs that have been created based upon our service economy (like search engine optimizer ...). But there you have the key to any job in America: education. You can't get a decent job without a decent education ... which is why America needs to invest in our education infrastructure. Maybe we need to consider paying more to teachers. You can't expect to output good student if your teachers are lousy. False! One can go to a local high end running store and grab a top shelf New Balance running shoe made in the USA and it will be the same price as a top shelf Nike made in China. You should change your statement to say: "Americans couldn't afford half of what we do if everything was made here and executive salaries stayed at the same ridiculous levels because they are able to cut the unit cost of product by outsourcing." Edited March 10, 2008 by Kev-Mo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furious1Auto Posted March 10, 2008 Author Share Posted March 10, 2008 (edited) Why does everyone always equate the term "service sector economy" to "working at Wal-Mart"? Service sector also includes the vast majority of medical and information technology jobs, which are amongst the hottest and well-paying markets to be in right now. Companies will always need computers and people will always be sick. Those jobs aren't going anywhere. You can forget computer building, networking and basic software programming as a carer in the future, their is an entire generation of kids learning to do this work without paying for it to be done for them! Kids have more knowledge and learn more quickly than adults. Many of the current computer related jobs only exist because adults who need this work performed don't know how to do it their self! I installed the second DVD burner with light scribe into the computer that I am posting on when it was brand new! I had no prior experience, in Hardware upgrading and everything works great. I now call my P.C. Goliath! Edited March 10, 2008 by Furious1Auto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kev-Mo Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 People buy cheap imported goods supposedly to save money. This drives up the trade deficit, which is a major factor in driving down the value of the dollar, which causes imported goods to be more expensive! Look at the big picture folks! Our economy is in shambles because of this type of consumerism – and our national policies that encourage it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kev-Mo Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 (edited) Some things to think about: The top 25% of Chinese students intellectually, is greater than the entire number of students in the USA. You can take every single job in America, send it India, and they will still have a labor surplus. The proliferation of knowledge and technology is becoming so great, that soon what students learn in their first year, will obsolete by their 4th year. We can all say things like: I use good judgment when it comes to debt. I work hard. I have a good education, etc. But the fact remains that we have no idea how fast and furious the inevitable change will come, and how bad it can get for us all. Edited March 10, 2008 by Kev-Mo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 You can forget computer building, networking and basic software programming as a carer in the future, their is an entire generation of kids learning to do this work without paying for it to be done for them! Kids have more knowledge and learn more quickly than adults. Many of the current computer related jobs only exist because adults who need this work performed don't know how to do it their self! I installed the second DVD burner with light scribe into the computer that I am posting on when it was brand new! I had no prior experience, in Hardware upgrading and everything works great. I now call my P.C. Goliath! Wow. Your understanding of the IT industry (and its history) couldn't be more lacking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furious1Auto Posted March 10, 2008 Author Share Posted March 10, 2008 (edited) Some things to think about: The top 25% of Chinese students intellectually, is greater than the entire number of students in the USA. You can take every single job in America, send it India, and they will still have a labor surplus. The proliferation of knowledge and technology is becoming so great, that soon what students learn in their first year, will obsolete by their 4th year. We can all say things like: I use good judgment when it comes to debt. I work hard. I have a good education, etc. But the fact remains that we have no idea how fast and furious the inevitable change will come, and bad it can get for us all. It just amazes me how many still refuse to recognize the cause of this truth, or that it is even bad for us! Only a sheep would buy into the ramblings and false justifications that the social elite use to sell globalization. "We must be competative globaly, or we will fall behind!" "Don't morn the loss of jobs, educate yourself to change with the demands of the market" "We will instead of being a producing nation, become a service nation"! Has anyone stopped to see that we are loosing jobs at a faster rate than new ones are being created, while the American imports more people to perform work that cannot be outsourced! Less work and increasingly more people annually to compete with over the jobs that still exist. It is all about driving down the costs so that big coporations can improve their profit margins! They deffinatly are not passing their savings on to the consumer! Wow. Your understanding of the IT industry (and its history) couldn't be more lacking. I'm telling you that Kids who have parents that work in the IT feild watch their parents while they work. Classes and feilds that are relevant today mean nothing in short order, and you cannot recoupe money spent on education that is obselete! Edited March 10, 2008 by Furious1Auto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furious1Auto Posted March 10, 2008 Author Share Posted March 10, 2008 (edited) Retracted! Edited March 10, 2008 by Furious1Auto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 (edited) I'm telling you that Kids who have parents that work in the IT feild watch their parents while they work. Classes and feilds that are relevant today mean nothing in short order, and you cannot recoupe money spent on education that is obselete! Continuing education is a fact of life in IT. I've accepted it. I've embraced it. However, you seem to be missing the majority of what IT involves. What a kid can teach himself using the Internet is barely the tip of the iceberg compared to what they will learn through a college education and on-the-job training and experience. IT is a LOT more specialized than you seem to realize. It's not like some kid learning programming in his spare time is going to give a programmer with 15-20 years experience a run for his money in the vast majority of instances (it's not like new programming languages are invented every other year -- heck, we're still using FORTRAN in some instances!!). Then of course, you get into the engineering aspects of IT where there is no way on God's green earth you would get a thorough understanding of any of it without a college education or some sort of technical training. Yes, a kid can fix your home computer, but what does that really mean? I was able to fix home computers 15-20 years ago also. That doesn't mean everybody can or will be able to in the future. These things always drop in a curve. Yes, a lot of people can fix a computer now, but just like much technology, there comes a point where most people will stop learning the new stuff. Will most of these kids fixing computers now still be able to fix a new one 15-20 years from now? Probably not. As you mentioned, the technology changes too quickly and most people just won't have the time or desire to keep up. Also, with the increases in how computer technology is being used, the market for qualified people to maintain, repair, and develop systems will only INCREASE. Heck. We have refrigerators and coffee makers with computers in them now. I doubt your local home appliance repair guy knows how to deal with them. But somebody does -- an IT somebody. As long as the technology keeps expanding to new markets, there will be a growing need for people who can support it. Sure, there will come a point when I no longer feeling like learning all the new stuff as well. However, hopefully by then I can either retire or be in some cushy management position where I'm no longer concerned with the day-to-day break/fix/design stuff. Edited March 10, 2008 by NickF1011 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furious1Auto Posted March 10, 2008 Author Share Posted March 10, 2008 (edited) Also, with the increases in how computer technology is being used, the market for qualified people to maintain, repair, and develop systems will only INCREASE. Heck. We have refrigerators and coffee makers with computers in them now. I doubt your local home appliance repair guy knows how to deal with them. But somebody does -- an IT somebody. As long as the technology keeps expanding to new markets, there will be a growing need for people who can support it. It's funny you mentioned it, I use to repair appliances for a living. When a PC board goes bad the whole board in the appliance is replaced if under warranty. If not under warranty the manufacterers price them so that it is just more practical to replace the appliance! I also think you are underestimating the young's desire to continue learning things they are passionate about. Not to mention that they learn by trial and error what many pay thousands of dollars to go to school for, in the long run this will ease the demand for qualified people and drive down the wages in these feilds! Edited March 10, 2008 by Furious1Auto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 I also think you are underestimating the young's desire to continue learning things they are passionate about. Not to mention that they learn by trial and error what many pay thousands of dollars to go to school for, in the long run this will ease the demand for qualified people and drive down the wages in these feilds! Your making this way too simplistic, just look at Auto mechanics, you can make a good living doing it (if you know what your doing), but there are pently of kids and "shade tree" guys out there who are interested in fixing cars, at various degrees of success, yet they really don't impact the wages of Auto Mechanics in doing so. There is no way that someone in IT can know everything and anything about about computers, I hate programming myself, and focus on Hardware/Software/networking support instead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 (edited) It's funny you mentioned it, I use to repair appliances for a living. When a PC board goes bad the whole board in the appliance is replaced if under warranty. If not under warranty the manufacterers price them so that it is just more practical to replace the appliance! I also think you are underestimating the young's desire to continue learning things they are passionate about. Not to mention that they learn by trial and error what many pay thousands of dollars to go to school for, in the long run this will ease the demand for qualified people and drive down the wages in these feilds! There is absolutely zero difference between the kids today and their computers and the kids of yesteryear fiddling with vacuum tubes and transistors in their parents' garages. The end result is the same -- the technology changes faster than most people are willing to learn it - the current generation included. In the end, you'll always have a demand for people who ARE willing to learn it, which historically, has been fewer people than are really needed. This is why high-tech fields have ALWAYS paid well, and likely still will in the future. This is also why I am still in school -- and why my employer pays me to go -- I don't want to be (and won't be) left behind with the new changes, and I won't be -- because I will have one thing over anyone else who doesn't have the formal and expansive education -- EXPERIENCE. Despite what some people want to believe, experience does still count for something. In fact, it may be MORE important in IT compared to a lot of other fields. Employers want workers who demonstrate commitment (IT has a VERY high rollover rate - likely because of the high pace of change you mentioned) and the ability to adapt. Those who stick around are usually rewarded, not replaced by some college drop-out who has zero demonstratable commitment or real world experience. Those are the types of employees who are responsible for the high rollover rate. They are hired because they can be hired for cheap. Then they leave after a year. What does the employer get out of that? Not much. They need to waste their time and money training the next guy who will probably leave in a year. The savings aren't worth it in the long term. Oh, and I would LOVE to see someone learn how to design and produce a microchip by trial-and-error in their parents' garage. Some things require school. Just the way it is. Edited March 10, 2008 by NickF1011 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Martin Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 So he shouldn't have gone to college? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ford Jellymoulds Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 It's funny you mentioned it, I use to repair appliances for a living. When a PC board goes bad the whole board in the appliance is replaced if under warranty. If not under warranty the manufacterers price them so that it is just more practical to replace the appliance! I also think you are underestimating the young's desire to continue learning things they are passionate about. Not to mention that they learn by trial and error what many pay thousands of dollars to go to school for, in the long run this will ease the demand for qualified people and drive down the wages in these feilds! Why did you pack in up fixing computers it must have paid well job, when you look inside a computer you only seem to have a motherboard, power supply, ram sticks, video card, sometimes a sound card if it not integrated, hard drive, disc drive and a processor. You can't tell me folk will spent hours tracing a fault to fix lets say a video card that only costs $70 to buy new? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 Why did you pack in up fixing computers it must have paid well job, when you look inside a computer you only seem to have a motherboard, power supply, ram sticks, video card, sometimes a sound card if it not integrated, hard drive, disc drive and a processor. You can't tell me folk will spent hours tracing a fault to fix lets say a video card that only costs $70 to buy new? Yes, a desktop computer is a pretty simple and cheap device. That's really only scratching the VERY surface of IT though. In most cases, when you can't figure something out in a desktop, sure it's cheaper and easier just to replace it. Now, what if you have a problem with a multi-million dollar radar array in a surveillance aircraft? Do you just replace it because you can't find where the problem is right away? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OAC_Sparky Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 Why does everyone always equate the term "service sector economy" to "working at Wal-Mart"? Service sector also includes the vast majority of medical and information technology jobs, which are amongst the hottest and well-paying markets to be in right now. Companies will always need computers and people will always be sick. Those jobs aren't going anywhere. I never equated "service sector" to strictly "Walmart". But unless all the med-techs out there want to stand around giving each others MRIs, somebody has to make enough to pay their wages. Those people aren't entirely in the upper class, they're middle class people with health plans and savings (or pay taxes in Canada). You can't have every person punching in data or running DNA tests -- it's not self-sustaining. Sooner or later, someone has to **gasp** make something. Whether it's cars or houses or shirts or shoes or umbrellas. The problem is, a worker in China or Korea or Sri Lanka or Singapore or India won't come to North America to get medical help. They won't send their kids here to get educated. People might always get sick, but it doesn't necessarily mean that people will be able to afford to get looked at. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furious1Auto Posted March 10, 2008 Author Share Posted March 10, 2008 But unless all the med-techs out there want to stand around giving each others MRIs, somebody has to make enough to pay their wages. Those people aren't entirely in the upper class, they're middle class people with health plans and savings (or pay taxes in Canada). You can't have every person punching in data or running DNA tests -- it's not self-sustaining. Sooner or later, someone has to **gasp** make something. Whether it's cars or houses or shirts or shoes or umbrellas. This is exactly my point, if everyone did data entry or other service work for countries that are industrialized, and do produce goods how long will it be before they find someone to outsource your job to for less than you charge? Nick as far a computer technologies it is too broad a term to sight it will be a vialble income forever! Computers are like law, or medicine in that their are so many feilds within the business to specialize in. I'm talking about building and servicing computers, loading software, creating simple programs, right now many can earn a very good living doing this. In the future as these things become common knowledge with the younger generation the demand for these services will deminish. I'm sure that working on aircraft is different, but are there enough aircrafts for every American to be employed servicing them? Your comparison between people trouble shooting and building P.C.'s VS. trouble shooting and repaiing circuits on an aircraft is equivelent to comparing, the difference between casting a broken arm VS. brain surgery! Or the difference between filing bankruptcy papers VS. being a trial lawyer! In time many feilds in the computer service industry will become obselete whether you like it and except it, or you try to belittle others for pointing it out this is fact! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted March 11, 2008 Share Posted March 11, 2008 This is exactly my point, if everyone did data entry or other service work for countries that are industrialized, and do produce goods how long will it be before they find someone to outsource your job to for less than you charge? Nick as far a computer technologies it is too broad a term to sight it will be a vialble income forever! Computers are like law, or medicine in that their are so many feilds within the business to specialize in. I'm talking about building and servicing computers, loading software, creating simple programs, right now many can earn a very good living doing this. In the future as these things become common knowledge with the younger generation the demand for these services will deminish. I'm sure that working on aircraft is different, but are there enough aircrafts for every American to be employed servicing them? Your comparison between people trouble shooting and building P.C.'s VS. trouble shooting and repaiing circuits on an aircraft is equivelent to comparing, the difference between casting a broken arm VS. brain surgery! Or the difference between filing bankruptcy papers VS. being a trial lawyer! In time many feilds in the computer service industry will become obselete whether you like it and except it, or you try to belittle others for pointing it out this is fact! Of course fields become obsolete. What part of continuing education from my first post on the subject did you not understand? Your area of business is drying up, you learn how to do something else. Adapt or be left behind. I'm adapting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furious1Auto Posted March 11, 2008 Author Share Posted March 11, 2008 Of course fields become obsolete. What part of continuing education from my first post on the subject did you not understand? Your area of business is drying up, you learn how to do something else. Adapt or be left behind. I'm adapting. Listen Nick, smany in this country lack the means, and intelligence to work in specialized feilds, but are more than capable of doing manual labor. Are you saying these people should go hungry. Also new jobs are not being created at the pace we are losing them. You cannot so easily dismiss the need for manufacturing jobs in this country. I'm beginning to see where you are coming from, you whole arguement is a back patting session to bolster your ego! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted March 11, 2008 Share Posted March 11, 2008 Listen Nick, smany in this country lack the means, and intelligence to work in specialized feilds, but are more than capable of doing manual labor. Are you saying these people should go hungry. Also new jobs are not being created at the pace we are losing them. You cannot so easily dismiss the need for manufacturing jobs in this country. I'm beginning to see where you are coming from, you whole arguement is a back patting session to bolster your ego! I'm not saying we don't need manufacturing jobs. But we do NOT need a manufacturing-BASED economy. There is definitely a difference there. Of course, the root of the problem comes down to our horrid education system. Of course everybody can't get into a technical field, but a lot of that is not because of their lack of intelligence. It's because of their lack of means to an education. And you're damn right I'm patting myself on the back. I didn't get where I am today by not working hard for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furious1Auto Posted March 11, 2008 Author Share Posted March 11, 2008 I'm not saying we don't need manufacturing jobs. But we do NOT need a manufacturing-BASED economy. There is definitely a difference there. Of course, the root of the problem comes down to our horrid education system. Of course everybody can't get into a technical field, but a lot of that is not because of their lack of intelligence. It's because of their lack of means to an education. And you're damn right I'm patting myself on the back. I didn't get where I am today by not working hard for it. I'm not saying you are not deserving of pride either, but many could never do what you have accomplished, and not because they don't work hard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted March 11, 2008 Share Posted March 11, 2008 You can't tell me folk will spent hours tracing a fault to fix lets say a video card that only costs $70 to buy new? If it takes you more then an hour to troubleshoot a faulty video card there is something seriously wrong. Most faults can be figured out in about 15-30 minutes by myself, but then again I do have nearly 10 years of IT experance, so thats why I get paid what I get paid :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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