To Hybrid or Not To Hybrid

[GopherM]

Here is the big question. I commute 20 miles each day on mostly open country roads and highways driving mostly around 55 MPH. From strictly a gas mileage standpoint would it be worth spending the extra bucks for the FEH or from a money in my pocket to pay for gas would I be better off getting the new '09 Escape Limited Gas I4?

 

Help!!!! I have been thinking about this and figuring all the angles so hard that my head is beginning to hurt. IMO, it would seem that the the plain old gas I4 would be my best bet.

[Critic]

I have been thinking about this and figuring all the angles so hard that my head is beginning to hurt. IMO, it would seem that the the plain old gas I4 would be my best bet.

 

From experience: do your figuring at 28 MPG for the hybrid.

[dwg]

I agree. We average about 28 mpg in primarily suburban driving with the hybrid. The savings come primarily from the engine turning off at traffic lights and driving through our neiborhood at 25 mph on electric power. Also the hybrid mileage is best in warm weather. In the cold weather the engine takes longer to warm up and will not switch to electric until it has warmd up.

[Critic]

I agree. We average about 28 mpg in primarily suburban driving with the hybrid. The savings come primarily from the engine turning off at traffic lights and driving through our neiborhood at 25 mph on electric power. Also the hybrid mileage is best in warm weather. In the cold weather the engine takes longer to warm up and will not switch to electric until it has warmd up.

ALL mileage drops in the winter. It's a simple reaction. Optimum air to fuel ratio is 14 pounds of air to 1 pound of fuel. During the winter COLDER air is more dense. Thus on each intake stroke it is sucking in MORE volume of air with weighs slightly more and to maintain that ratio it must have more fuel. Otherwise your into a lean burn.

 

Yes it may take longer to warm up. But the real reason is trying to maintain that F/A ratio.

 

Add in winter blends that help to drop mileage and the fact that every electrical item you use also cuts into the mileage.

[GopherM]

ALL mileage drops in the winter. It's a simple reaction. Optimum air to fuel ratio is 14 pounds of air to 1 pound of fuel. During the winter COLDER air is more dense. Thus on each intake stroke it is sucking in MORE volume of air with weighs slightly more and to maintain that ratio it must have more fuel. Otherwise your into a lean burn.

 

Yes it may take longer to warm up. But the real reason is trying to maintain that F/A ratio.

 

Add in winter blends that help to drop mileage and the fact that every electrical item you use also cuts into the mileage.

 

OK...so what I am sensing without anyone actually commiting themselves, it sounds like with my particular driving conditions that the I4 gas would be the best bet. Or no one really knows ! You guys are not helping my headache.

[Critic]

I answered you in my first post. Read it how you like.

[suv_guy_19]

OK...so what I am sensing without anyone actually commiting themselves, it sounds like with my particular driving conditions that the I4 gas would be the best bet. Or no one really knows ! You guys are not helping my headache.

 

Wait for the 09. Get the I4. It will bet good mileage and the money you save over the hybrid can go to gas.

Edited June 23, 2008 by suv_guy_19

[TitleistWI]

I wouldnt get the hybrid if it were me. Unless the majority of your driving is stop-and-go traffic at speeds below 40 mph, you wont get much of a benefit with a hybrid.

Go with the 4-banger and call it a day...

[GopherM]

To ALL;

 

Thanks for you inputs. The conclusion that the I4 would suit me best pretty much confirms my calculations. I think the difference of around $5K for the fully loaded Limited and the Hybrid will keep gas in the scooter for a while (at least until it hits $10 a gallon).

 

Thanks again. Now I guess I'll place my order.

[Walt]

I get between 32 and 33 with my '07 4wd hybrid, in all suburban driving.

 

That's about double what I was getting, with my Cherokee.

[Walt]

ALL mileage drops in the winter. It's a simple reaction. Optimum air to fuel ratio is 14 pounds of air to 1 pound of fuel. During the winter COLDER air is more dense. Thus on each intake stroke it is sucking in MORE volume of air with weighs slightly more and to maintain that ratio it must have more fuel. Otherwise your into a lean burn.

 

Yes it may take longer to warm up. But the real reason is trying to maintain that F/A ratio.

 

Add in winter blends that help to drop mileage and the fact that every electrical item you use also cuts into the mileage.

 

While that is true, the drop in mileage for the hybrid is for very different reasons.

 

For the hybrids, the ICE is the only source for most of its heat. Therefore, to keep things warm in the winter, hybrids have to burn gas when then would not have had to otherwise. That extra burning of gas, is the primary cause of the lower winter mileage. The reason you site, are in comparison just secondary effects.

 

BTW, it is heat for itself, and not the occupants. :D

[Critic]

While that is true, the drop in mileage for the hybrid is for very different reasons.

 

For the hybrids, the ICE is the only source for most of its heat. Therefore, to keep things warm in the winter, hybrids have to burn gas when then would not have had to otherwise. That extra burning of gas, is the primary cause of the lower winter mileage. The reason you site, are in comparison just secondary effects.

 

BTW, it is heat for itself, and not the occupants. :D

You need to qualify that. The ICE light's off, for only one reason, that's emissions, to keep the catalist hot. Winter or summer it does the same thing, that's why when you start it, the ICE fires off. As for any other reason termed heat, the 12V. battery supplies power to the 330V. battery blanket in extreme cold to keep them warm. Your trying to say it's because a human factor needs and wants heat in the interior, when that is just subjective.

 

The ICE won't be running during winter any more than during summer, under the same conditions. And you probably won't be sitting any longer in winter in Elect. mode than in summer.

 

You'd get the same reduction in mileage; %-wise for a hybrid as for a non-hybrid. Everything: light's, radio, roof racks, front spolier, heater, alternator impacts fuel economy. I saw a paper as to how much each item took away from optimun mileage. I put in an engine block heater and checked to see if it helped on economy and it didn't help from what I could tell, just that I got interior heat sooner. Being an all AL. block, Ford's deliver heat very quickly to interiors now vs. say 10 years ago.

[Walt]

The ICE won't be running during winter any more than during summer, under the same conditions. And you probably won't be sitting any longer in winter in Elect. mode than in summer.

 

I can tell you as a hybrid owner, that that is absolutely not true.

[Critic]

I can tell you as a hybrid owner, that that is absolutely not true.

 

I can tell you AS A HYBRID OWNER, IT's absolutely true.

[GaryG]

Here is the big question. I commute 20 miles each day on mostly open country roads and highways driving mostly around 55 MPH. From strictly a gas mileage standpoint would it be worth spending the extra bucks for the FEH or from a money in my pocket to pay for gas would I be better off getting the new '09 Escape Limited Gas I4?

 

Help!!!! I have been thinking about this and figuring all the angles so hard that my head is beginning to hurt. IMO, it would seem that the the plain old gas I4 would be my best bet.

 

With a 20 mile commute, tax credit and resale value, the FEH/MMH is a far better investment of your dollars. As gas prices increase, you will have an even faster break-even time on your money. In three or four years from now, the value of vehicles getting less than ~25mpg will look like gas hogs when you look at new vehicles being designed for the market. We are already seeing this with vehicles getting less than ~20mpg now.

 

The FEH/MMH has a standard 110V AC outlet with 150W of power that can charge a cell phone without the damage of the quick 12V charger to the phone battery. Ford has also patented a warm-up strategy that lets the electric motors power the FEH/MMH while the PCM retards the engine timing at idle to speed up heat of the engine so the CAT can go light-off and allow the engine to go closed-loop much sooner.

 

One big advantage of the hybrid and may have been increased in the '09 model is the all electric drive. The engine can shutdown at 40mph (may even be higher in the '09) for EV mode where some people including myself have gotten as much as 70mpg. Many people are learning to hypermile their FEH/MMH and get tank averages over 40mpg. A poster name Debbie Katz just reported over a 52mpg tank on E-10. Her lifetime average in her '05 FWD FEH is ~40mpg and she lives in a Cold State where the FEH came with a block heater. This is something you may want to consider as gas prices increase or shortages become possible.

 

There is a good reason that there are far and few used hybrids are on the market today. There is also a good reason why new hybrids can't keep up with demand.

 

All this being said, the new '09 I-4 gas Escape has some great improvements also over last years model.

[Critic]

The original poster had it correct. Save the extra $7K, put it towards gas, it will take over 10+ years to break even with that strategy vs. using the hybrid. Act like a normal driver on the roads and you'll also prolong the life of the non-hybrid, by not trying to destroy the transmission with the asinine hypermiler b.s. and replacing tyres due to inflating them beyond safety standards.

[Green Lantern]

Critic, we get it. You don't like GaryG, or better yet, you don't like or agree with the practices he talks about. Does every thread where he and posts have to end up with you complaining about it all? Heck, keep a standard PM loaded up and send to anyone you think GaryG is advising with unsafe methods and send it to them so we don't have to all keep reading about it everytime.

I hope you can understand. Thanks.

[scottfisher]

Hey GreenLantern, any word yet from your dealer regarding order for vehicle ?

 

None on my side yet other than typical doing everything we can with regional rep to push it.

[Green Lantern]

Hey GreenLantern, any word yet from your dealer regarding order for vehicle ?

 

None on my side yet other than typical doing everything we can with regional rep to push it.

 

None yet. I also have a friend from church who is a recently retired Ford employee checking through his contacts. I have heard a rumor that hybrids could be delayed until the fourth quarter and I am trying to determine if there is any validity to this or not. It is only a concern because of the deal I have selling my current vehicle through a private transaction. I will keep you posted though as I hope to know something this week.

[Critic]

The original poster had it correct. Save the extra $7K, put it towards gas, it will take over 10+ years to break even with that strategy vs. using the hybrid. Act like a normal driver on the roads and you'll also prolong the life of the non-hybrid, by not trying to destroy the transmission with the asinine hypermiler b.s. and replacing tyres due to inflating them beyond safety standards.

Critic, we get it. You don't like GaryG, or better yet, you don't like or agree with the practices he talks about. Does every thread where he and posts have to end up with you complaining about it all? Heck, keep a standard PM loaded up and send to anyone you think GaryG is advising with unsafe methods and send it to them so we don't have to all keep reading about it everytime.

I hope you can understand. Thanks.

Hey Green I really edited that reply down from what I would have originally put there. Trust me. Here is something to also think about.

 

Warranty. Warranty does not cover abuse. IF there is a failure and it's been termed abuse by the company, it will be denied. Now a person who is looking to purely save money, might think about trying a few ways to save with driving habits. But to use those full accounts by the hypermilers and discover what you have done led to a failure and the dealership also can tell, then to argue it with a zone manager, and find out, the cost comes out of your pocket, isn't a good thing. Money for thought. Using 1/2 the recommended oil in the engine? I don't think so.

 

Also Gary came here and seems to want to spread his claims into any thread that deals with a simple hybrid purchase. Siting a post by a woman,..... WHO DIDN'T POST ON THIS SITE! Man this is the interweb, anyone can claim anything..

 

I MAKE MY LIVING BUILDING THESE THINGS. I don't want to lose it, due to someone advocating practices not approved by the manufacturer. As there are always 2 sides to each story and more likely 3 sides, I'll also give mine. And I will start a more hazardous campaign in each rebuttal too.

 

There is a place for those practices, it's not here, and not in this post. Since I build these and the company stands to make more money, (debatable) it would have been better for me to convince the purchaser to buy a hybrid, but real world and real ownership says it's not a wise money decision.

 

The answer to the thread, ^^^^^^^^

 

 

And to ScottF, they will be built, when they are built.. it's a 6 moth wait normally and might be a lot longer now. Check back in December or January.

[TitleistWI]

I get between 32 and 33 with my '07 4wd hybrid, in all suburban driving.

 

That's about double what I was getting, with my Cherokee.

To be fair though, an Escape/Mariner is a smaller vehicle than a Cherokee. Besides, no one ever accused a Chrysler product of getting good gas milage!

[Green Lantern]

Hey Green I really edited that reply down from what I would have originally put there. Trust me. Here is something to also think about.

 

Warranty. Warranty does not cover abuse. IF there is a failure and it's been termed abuse by the company, it will be denied. Now a person who is looking to purely save money, might think about trying a few ways to save with driving habits. But to use those full accounts by the hypermilers and discover what you have done led to a failure and the dealership also can tell, then to argue it with a zone manager, and find out, the cost comes out of your pocket, isn't a good thing. Money for thought. Using 1/2 the recommended oil in the engine? I don't think so.

 

Also Gary came here and seems to want to spread his claims into any thread that deals with a simple hybrid purchase. Siting a post by a woman,..... WHO DIDN'T POST ON THIS SITE! Man this is the interweb, anyone can claim anything..

 

I MAKE MY LIVING BUILDING THESE THINGS. I don't want to lose it, due to someone advocating practices not approved by the manufacturer. As there are always 2 sides to each story and more likely 3 sides, I'll also give mine. And I will start a more hazardous campaign in each rebuttal too.

 

There is a place for those practices, it's not here, and not in this post. Since I build these and the company stands to make more money, (debatable) it would have been better for me to convince the purchaser to buy a hybrid, but real world and real ownership says it's not a wise money decision.

 

The answer to the thread, ^^^^^^^^

 

 

And to ScottF, they will be built, when they are built.. it's a 6 moth wait normally and might be a lot longer now. Check back in December or January.

 

Critic, thanks for the clarification but I still would rather not see either side of this argument further pushed here. I would rather folks use the pm function to push or defend their agenda or side of the argument but that is enough on that topic and I will not speak to it again. I have said my peace.

 

On to the Escape Hybrid. I live in Louisville, KY which is a Ford town and I unfortunately drive a foreign car. I happen to work for the largest employer in the city and for years have expressed my frustration that this community does not support my employer enough for what they do for our city and state. I then had to look in the mirror and realize that I was a hypocrite. Thus I made the decision to buy Ford again and try and stay Ford. I have researched for about 2 years on the topic and decided I wanted to hybrid. I will not be driving against manufactured recommendations so I may not achieve superhuman mpg's but I will be supporting a local company (even if the Escape is not built in our 2 plants) and will be showing my daughter how to better care for our planet.

 

My '09 Limited Hybrid is ordered and I cannot wait to get it although I know the wait will be a long one.

[scottfisher]

And to ScottF, they will be built, when they are built.. it's a 6 moth wait normally and might be a lot longer now. Check back in December or January.

 

Thanks "Critic" for reply, I hope the wait is for engineering, hopefully a switch from NiMH to Lithium Ion but I doubt they could beat Toyota to the punch, they just started building their plants for Lith Ion and won't be installing them until 2010 model year.

 

Wishful thinking though that the delay would be for something significant.

 

This delay may be for the best, as I work at The Jeep plant and by this winter may have to back out of purchase for plant politics or job survival. They are already trying to push corporate badged vehicles on us over UAW built in regards to parking spots.

 

Local union feels its better to drive Mexican, Jap, Europeon, or Chiney over UAW built as long as it has Chrysler nameplate on it. Pretty antiquated thought process supporting foreign over Union made.

[Donaldo]

My '09 Limited Hybrid is ordered and I cannot wait to get it although I know the wait will be a long one.

 

Don't worry, about 99% of people complaining about hybrids don't own one. They are performing very well on the road. Have fun with yours!

[dfs]

I was at an Atlanta Ford dealership Monday for an oil change and overheard a salesman telling a customer that wanted to get information on an Escape Hybrid that she should reconsider. He said that emergency responders would not try to save someone in a wrecked Hybrid, they cost much more than a non-hybrid, production was limited, the real fuel economy was only about 4-5 MPG better than a non-hybrid, etc.

 

I tried to figure out why he was bad mouthing the vehicle, until I realized he didn't have any on the lot and wanted to sell her something that day. Look for the ulterior motives.

 

I like the Mariner Hybrid from the package content perspective. I guess I should order one, if I would like to have it by January.