Theology

[RangerM]

....He's baiting people, he does it all the time.

If Trim were the only person reading this thread, I might not have bothered to the extent that I have.

 

However, he hasn't refuted the logic in any argument I've made (and from what I can tell has purposely avoided trying; using the types of statements you referred to).

 

If it means I've been the recipient of ridicule on Trim's part, that's ok, if another has read and been inspired.

 

Romans 12

[macattak1]

the discussion came up of how to account for dinosaurs when the Bible claims the world to be 5000 years old.

 

My point is that many religions allow for a much older world.

 

 

As far as dinosaurs, it is important becuase it reinforces that the Bible cannot be taken verbatim as it cannot reconcile with scientific discoveries.

 

Greetings,

 

How does the bible not reconcile dinosaurs? The bible talks about the animals made. Not every single one, very few in fact. But one can not say that the earth is X years old because the bible does not talk about head lice.

 

And how did dinosaurs become the pivotal point or litmus test for the accuracy of the bible?

 

I believe that dinosaurs are only a problem for those that do not have an answer, but Must have an Answer.

 

Peace and Blessings

[macattak1]

Like I've said before, the Bible isn't necessarily intended to be taken verbatim. Much is allegorical.

 

Example, where does the Bible claim that the world is 5000 (or 6000 as is popularly claimed) years old?

 

Greetings,

 

Genesis

 

First was the Heaven and the Earth. (specific points in time and space) [Like the hour markers or place markers on a clock or calendar]

Then darkness.

Then Light. (not a different light, but the same light just as He is the Same God yesterday, today, tomorrow. [Like the hands of a clock or the pages of a calendar]

Then God divided the Light and darkness. (24 hour days)

...

The first day.

 

God created a celestial clock when He made the heavens and the earth/other planetary bodies. We use the still today to measure time, location, seasons, etc.

 

Peace and Blessings

[macattak1]

But the real issue is, You have been exposed to the Word. Now every religion stress's free will. Free will has existed in Heaven before man, hence the fall of angels due to free-will.

 

Trim has exercised his free-will. He has heard the Word...

 

It's not our responsibility to actually help this man, He has free-will to seek the truth himself. He states his free-will has told him he is correct. So enough, allow him to continue as he is. Their are plenty of books to help him. I listed 3. Stop playing the cat and mouse game with him. If he is a non-believer he would not continue in this thread. He's baiting people, he does it all the time.

 

Greetings,

 

I am not sure Trim has been exposed to the Word, as in Scripture. I believe that is the Only Word capable of helping believer and non-believer alike.

 

Every religion but Christianity stresses free will. Other religions are about saving ones self through wisdom, action, etc. But that is not Christianity. There WAS free will. The angels may or may not have had something like it. Some did fall. But they also come and go at God's pleasure. Job 1.6 shows that even the fallen angels still are under God's authority. However, free will is what God gave man because man, unlike angels, has a soul. God wants to give and receive love. Adam and Eve sinned. Since then we have All been cursed into sin and this wiped out our free will. Jesus makes this clear in places such as Jhn 15.16 when He says that we have not chosen Him, but He has chosen us. And He Draws us like David or hardens us like Pharaoh at His desire. We are dependent upon Him.

 

Books of man are of little to no help to man. But the Scripture gives life! One can not go wrong with scripture. Trim is baiting. But he is also interested. Most people are. If people really had not interest in God they would have no interest in evolution any more than the average person would care about string theory, or who owned some place in Africa some 10k years ago.

 

God rejoices in the one lost that is found again.

 

Peace and Blessings

[RangerM]

The first day.

 

God created a celestial clock when He made the heavens and the earth/other planetary bodies. We use the still today to measure time, location, seasons, etc.

 

With all due respect mac, what is more important to you.....

 

That I agree with your opinion that the original Hebrew "yom" translates into our modern 24-hour "day", when it can easily mean "age" or "era" as was common Moses' time? (The first age, The first era.)

 

Or, that I follow Jesus' teachings?

 

If you believe my relationship with God is dependent upon your or any other man's interpretation, I would ask by what measure are you qualified to come between me and God?

[Critic]

Satan was a creature of God, an angel who chose to sin of his own free will. Humans also make evil choices of their own free will that God does not ordain.

 

I myself can not allow only one interpretation of things as Mac tries to advance. Sorry Mac.. Even in this thread you have said too many outrageous things.. I won't be clicking to see what you have said again.

 

Your peace and blessings are a mockery when you practice bigotry.

[macattak1]

With all due respect mac, what is more important to you.....

 

That I agree with your opinion that the original Hebrew "yom" translates into our modern 24-hour "day", when it can easily mean "age" or "era" as was common Moses' time? (The first age, The first era.)

 

Or, that I follow Jesus' teachings?

 

If you believe my relationship with God is dependent upon your or any other man's interpretation, I would ask by what measure are you qualified to come between me and God?

 

Greetings,

 

That you follow Jesus. And I think we can both agree that the more secure knowledge we each have brings us closer to better knowing Him. Iron sharpens Iron. But I have zero qualifications other than being another possible True Child of God. But since you and I can only know our own hearts at best, you would be a fool to follow my interpretations or teachings. You would also be a fool not to consider them in light of the scripture. And that is what I really point you to. Read the beginning of Gen over and over and consider a celestial time peace made by God to His standards.

 

Further, I am not saying I am correct. Only what I believe due to what I have been shown of what scripture has to say on the topic. It is very important that if one of us believes he has truth that he share it, and that others consider it not in their Mind but in light of harmonizing all scripture into truth on the subject. A tall order for sure. But we still try.

 

When I come upon something that I think I have some level of truth on a topic I share it. It may cause you to consider the scripture in a new light and you may provide to me additional scripture that must be harmonized with what I have been shown. And that is of utmost importance. I may not believe much of what J-150 believes. And that is OK. He and I are different people on different paths. He and I may criss-cross each other a 100 times or never meet again. He may have more truth or all truth compared to me. So I challenge his beliefs and what he has learned and am glad he challenges mine.

 

Peace and Blessings

[macattak1]

Satan was a creature of God, an angel who chose to sin of his own free will. Humans also make evil choices of their own free will that God does not ordain.

 

I myself can not allow only one interpretation of things as Mac tries to advance. Sorry Mac.. Even in this thread you have said too many outrageous things.. I won't be clicking to see what you have said again.

 

Your peace and blessings are a mockery when you practice bigotry.

 

Yes. Satan was a creature of God. I know of no scripture showing angels or Satan to have free will. But I know of scripture that shows they come when God summons them. They do not have the free will to ignore His summons or commands. Regardless, if you have no scripture on angelic free will you would be speculating and that is not how we come to truth. It is not about what is right, equitable, fair, etc. Its about what Scripture says. So if the bible talks in some language about Satan having Free Will please share it.

 

A Child of God has some level of free will as they have been born again and have a purified soul. However, prior to that and since Adam and Eve we are born into sin and that is a dominating control over us. Only by being born again do we have the ability to once again exercise any possible free will. It is God that Draws us or hardens us, not our own will. That is what scripture teaches. Why would Cain slay Abel if he had free will. He knew God only a little less so than maybe Adam and Eve! It was sin, and lack of control and lack of free will that caused him to murder Abel.

 

A Child of God would call me out on my "Outrageous" statements. Where am I a bigot? Show me and I will correct, clear up, apologize and ask for forgiveness, or what ever needs to be done. But if you are going to Judge me, and feel free to do so, do it with scripture as a Child of God knows they should. If you do not know scripture well enough that is fine. If you know it poorly I probably know it less than you. But don't judge with your pride, emotions, feelings, or thoughts. That is where you would go wrong.

 

Don't just stand up and shout about truth. Shout The truth.

 

Peace and Blessings

[J-150]

Like I've said before, the Bible isn't necessarily intended to be taken verbatim. Much is allegorical.

 

Example, where does the Bible claim that the world is 5000 (or 6000 as is popularly claimed) years old?

 

 

 

problem is, many do take it verbatim and bash others on the head with this.

 

And yes, the timelines given in the Bible equate to 5000 years. I'm not going to rehash it here as it has been calculated by too many biblical scholars to list.

[J-150]

Satan was a creature of God, an angel who chose to sin of his own free will. Humans also make evil choices of their own free will that God does not ordain.

 

 

have to disagree with this.

 

Satan is a Christian construct used to control mindless sheep.

 

Lucifer the Archangel is the fallen one. And his sin was questioning why God would choose the mindless monkeys on Earth above his own divine angelic creations.

 

Lucifer the Morning Sun. He did not hate God nor was he hated.

 

You can thank fire, brimstone and pitchforks on the Vatican. Yet another example of misinterpreting the Bible for selfish ends.

[J-150]

Yes. Satan was a creature of God. I know of no scripture showing angels or Satan to have free will. But I know of scripture that shows they come when God summons them. They do not have the free will to ignore His summons or commands. Regardless, if you have no scripture on angelic free will you would be speculating and that is not how we come to truth.

 

 

 

Lucifer praciced free will and was punished for it.

 

This does in fact show angelic freewill. They come when they are called. They are divine beings, not dogs. They come because they chose to obey.

[Critic]

have to disagree with this.

 

Satan is a Christian construct used to control mindless sheep.

 

Lucifer the Archangel is the fallen one. And his sin was questioning why God would choose the mindless monkeys on Earth above his own divine angelic creations.

 

Lucifer the Morning Sun. He did not hate God nor was he hated.

 

You can thank fire, brimstone and pitchforks on the Vatican. Yet another example of misinterpreting the Bible for selfish ends.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satan

 

Satan (Standard Hebrew Satan'el, English accuser) is a term that originates from the Abrahamic religions, being traditionally applied to an angel in Judeo-Christian belief, and to a jinn in Islamic belief.

 

Originally, this figure was the one who challenged the religious faith of humans in the Hebrew Bible. Since then, the Abrahamic religions have variously regarded Satan as a rebellious fallen angel or demon that tempts humans to sin or commit evil deeds. Others regard the Biblical Satan as an allegory that represents a crisis of faith, individualism, free will, wisdom and enlightenment.

 

In Christianity, terms that are synonymous with 'Satan' include:

 

• The most common English synonym for 'Satan' is 'Devil', which descends from Middle English devel, from Old English dēofol, that in turn represents an early Germanic borrowing of Latin diabolus (also the source of 'diabolical'). This in turn was borrowed from Greek diabolos "slanderer," from diaballein "to slander": dia- "across, through" + ballein "to hurl."^[10] In the New Testament, 'Satan' occurs more than thirty times in passages alongside Diabolos (Greek for "the devil"), referring to the same person or thing as Satan.^[11]
  
• Lucifer is sometimes used in Christian theology to refer to Satan, as a result of identifying the fallen "son of the dawn" of Isaiah 14:12 with the "accuser" of other passages in the Old Testament.
  

[RaZor]

Greetings,

 

How does the bible not reconcile dinosaurs? The bible talks about the animals made. Not every single one, very few in fact. But one can not say that the earth is X years old because the bible does not talk about head lice.

 

And how did dinosaurs become the pivotal point or litmus test for the accuracy of the bible?

 

I believe that dinosaurs are only a problem for those that do not have an answer, but Must have an Answer.

 

Peace and Blessings

 

Ahhhh, have you not been paying attention? The dinosaurs entered the analysis when those that thump the Bible as the literal truth failed miserably to deal with question of creationism vs. evolution. The "creationists" demanded proof of evolution (beyond doubt) and, at the same time, tried to force their personal beliefs that Genesis is the ONLY accurate account of the creation of the earth, mankind, and all its life forms.

 

Essentially, they ran into overwhleming proof to the contrary (the fossil record - findings that have been found just in the last century are truly staggering) and in their attempts to locate a valid path to acceptance of creationism (constitutionally – so that it could be taught in schools etc), and in an effort to promote fundamentalist-friendly “science” (even in a world where evolution has extensive proof via the huge fossil record – vs. a total vacuum of any semblance of proof for creationism) in public education and public discussion, fundamentalists launched a “new” interpretation of creationism with an explanation of that it was “Intelligent Design”(ID).

 

Correct if I am wrong, but one of the proponents of ID is that the time element of Genesis may not be taken literally – in terms of 24 hour days (in relation to the everything was created in six 24-hour days – the 7th was for rest). Was it Romney , or was it Huckabee that suggested that in the debates in primaries last year when asked if he believed that humans walked the earth at the same time as dinosaurs?

 

Of course, there wasn’t a follow-up on “how does one decide which parts (of the Bible) to read literally – and which one does not to take literally?”, but then, those poignant follow-ups rarely, if ever, seem to be asked these days. Of course, therein is where the problem lies, as I see it. ID’ers (and even “creationists”) seemingly want to portray themselves as a persecuted minority and, most often, choose offense as their defense, in that they attack anyone that questions (interesting to note that even ID’ers avoid scientific debate like the plague – but insist that their ideas should be used to convince school children instead of having meaning dialogue with scientists who are prepared to rebut and refute evidence) their contentions as atheists, secular, heretics, etc. Very much like what is going on now with all of the charges of socialism, fascism, communists, etc – because their (Rep) ideals have been rejected (overwhelmingly) by the American populace.

 

So which are you? A creationist or a believer in ID?

[Critic]

I just try to learn on my own about Christianity. I can't debate but only tell what I might have read or been told. But.

 

II 'thought' the Angels were with God at the beginning, Whether he made them or not I can't answer. I also 'think' that humans actually rank higher in God's view than the angels. Those that departed with Satan/Lucifer and their were numerous ones, will be replaced by humans.. And in God's eye the angels are to serve both humans and God. God sees humans in a better light than angels and we see angels in a better light than ourselves, Because they are with him while on this earth we are not.

[Critic]

Intriguing thoughts I've come across thru the years and this is one I like..

 

I was with God in heaven / at the beginning and I am now on this earth in a path of learning, previous knowledge of my past is wiped from my memory. And I am here to learn. When reunited in heaven and in judgement my life here will flash before my eyes. I will see all the bad that I have done and I will see why and what it caused, but I will learn why it was so, as it was part of my learning experience. <- did that make any sence?

 

BTW it seems IF you want to learn, their are some people here very willing to teach. I'm receptive. I can always learn to learn and do better.

[macattak1]

Lucifer praciced free will and was punished for it.

 

This does in fact show angelic freewill. They come when they are called. They are divine beings, not dogs. They come because they chose to obey.

 

So they are as powerful as God? I don't understand. If they appear before God when they want then yes. That would clearly be free will. However, that would also imply that they are nearly as or as powerful as God in that they can ignore Him if they want.

 

Regardless, scripture tells me that Angels are subject to God, not the other way around.

 

How did Lucifer practice free will? Because he was jealous, full of pride, etc? That does not equate to free will. Lucifer wanted what he wanted. God let him act on it or he did not. Because Lucifer is not capable of interrupting God's plans. If he were then God would have to have a myriad of back up and contingency plans and that would indicated God was not in control.

 

Peace and Blessings

[RangerM]

biblical scholars calculated the timelines given in the Bible equate to 5000 years.

 

I've rearranged your post to provide my perspective.

 

Like I said to Mac.....

 

To believe my relationship with God is dependent upon any other man's interpretation, I would ask by what measure are they qualified to come between me and God?

[Trimdingman]

You can spin and spin and spin, and the web will still not be strong enough to hold you up. You can't go to something that was just made up, or cannot be proven, and use it to prove something else. It is like a house of cards in a hurricane. Don't pity me as some lonely soul who needs help. I am trying to help you. I want you to enjoy the rich full life that I enjoy, unencumbered by deep-rooted superstitious fears. How can your mind be free to learn when every fact has to jibe with religion? You can sit on the can in the powder-room with the light turned off all day, but you will never figure anything out unless you put religion on the table. You have to allow for the possibility that religion could be wrong. When you do that, everything becomes simple and crystal clear. You don't have to rattle off scripture after scripture to cloud up your thinking so that you can keep your faith; or chant a hundred Hail Marys while clutching a rosary like a child with a security blanket. I could just walk away from this and let you waste your life, but if I can help even a few people to see the light, I will be happy.

[J-150]

BTW it seems IF you want to learn, their are some people here very willing to teach. I'm receptive. I can always learn to learn and do better.

 

 

wise words Critic.

 

thank you.

[J-150]

So they are as powerful as God? I don't understand. If they appear before God when they want then yes. That would clearly be free will. However, that would also imply that they are nearly as or as powerful as God in that they can ignore Him if they want.

 

Regardless, scripture tells me that Angels are subject to God, not the other way around.

 

How did Lucifer practice free will? Because he was jealous, full of pride, etc? That does not equate to free will. Lucifer wanted what he wanted. God let him act on it or he did not. Because Lucifer is not capable of interrupting God's plans. If he were then God would have to have a myriad of back up and contingency plans and that would indicated God was not in control.

 

Peace and Blessings

 

 

 

don't look now, but your dogma is showing again.

 

I never said they were as powerful as God. Please show me where I did.

[J-150]

Regardless, scripture tells me that Angels are subject to God, not the other way around.

 

 

there goes that mindless sheep thing again...

[J-150]

I've rearranged your post to provide my perspective.

 

Like I said to Mac.....

 

To believe my relationship with God is dependent upon any other man's interpretation, I would ask by what measure are they qualified to come between me and God?

 

 

 

He is whom He is to you and you alone.

 

I have no idea why learned holy men keep trying to take this away.

 

The Abrahamic scriptures (Torah, New testament, Quran, and all related addenda) clearly state over and over again to know Him in your heart. That to me means Holy men are only there to offer advice and some education and THAT'S IT.

[macattak1]

Ahhhh, have you not been paying attention? The dinosaurs entered the analysis when those that thump the Bible as the literal truth failed miserably to deal with question of creationism vs. evolution. The "creationists" demanded proof of evolution (beyond doubt) and, at the same time, tried to force their personal beliefs that Genesis is the ONLY accurate account of the creation of the earth, mankind, and all its life forms.

 

Essentially, they ran into overwhleming proof to the contrary (the fossil record - findings that have been found just in the last century are truly staggering) and in their attempts to locate a valid path to acceptance of creationism (constitutionally – so that it could be taught in schools etc), and in an effort to promote fundamentalist-friendly “science” (even in a world where evolution has extensive proof via the huge fossil record – vs. a total vacuum of any semblance of proof for creationism) in public education and public discussion, fundamentalists launched a “new” interpretation of creationism with an explanation of that it was “Intelligent Design”(ID).

 

Correct if I am wrong, but one of the proponents of ID is that the time element of Genesis may not be taken literally – in terms of 24 hour days (in relation to the everything was created in six 24-hour days – the 7th was for rest). Was it Romney , or was it Huckabee that suggested that in the debates in primaries last year when asked if he believed that humans walked the earth at the same time as dinosaurs?

 

Of course, there wasn’t a follow-up on “how does one decide which parts (of the Bible) to read literally – and which one does not to take literally?”, but then, those poignant follow-ups rarely, if ever, seem to be asked these days. Of course, therein is where the problem lies, as I see it. ID’ers (and even “creationists”) seemingly want to portray themselves as a persecuted minority and, most often, choose offense as their defense, in that they attack anyone that questions (interesting to note that even ID’ers avoid scientific debate like the plague – but insist that their ideas should be used to convince school children instead of having meaning dialogue with scientists who are prepared to rebut and refute evidence) their contentions as atheists, secular, heretics, etc. Very much like what is going on now with all of the charges of socialism, fascism, communists, etc – because their (Rep) ideals have been rejected (overwhelmingly) by the American populace.

 

So which are you? A creationist or a believer in ID?

 

Greetings,

 

Yep. I have been working on my business plan. Expense projections, revenue projections, LLC or Inc, The Offer, Exit Strats, etc. 30 to 50 pages of Pain not including creating NDA's, Rate Cards, etc.! Also rebuilt my PC so no more games to waste my time.

 

Hmmmm, Demanded, Beyond Doubt, Forced, and such. Why do we have to use such extremes to define the opposition? Especially when the examples may not be accurate? I guess we all do it, me included, but it is not part of the proof, it is in place of it.

 

I did not run into Overwhelming Proof to the contrary. The fossil records are not staggering to me in any particular way. And scientists and anthropologists are just as silly as C's or ID'rs. They take a 15% to 20% fossil and make up the rest of it to meet their needs, change it as their needs change, then discard it as another fossil comes along. No one is exempt from your observation are they?

 

I have asked this before and I will ask it again. How does nature preserve soft tissue for 70 million years?!?!?! I do not know that man with all his science could preserve soft tissue for 70 million years.

 

I am not sure about much of ID or Creationist to be truthful. I know that perhaps 1/2 or more of the Christian faith believes in an Old Earth (4.6 Billion Years). One of my very best friends and Brothers in Christ does. I think he is a ding dong, but that is OK. I still love him and he still loves me for the things I believe that he thinks are crazy! But for him it is what he Thinks and he has no real scripture for it. He is a scientist and does not like my example of the Genesis Celestial clock. He has not scripture for why it would not be a 24 hour day.

 

It is funny is it not that one can ask a Christian about that and possibly use it to ridicule them and their faith, but no one asks the opposition about how life was actually triggered or how Lucy was the heroine of Anthropology for decades but is now just junked, or any other number of easy questions that their beliefs are unknowingly dependent upon?

 

Why did they not ask Obama about evolution and then ask him about 70 million year old soft tissue and how that happens? Or how life started from nothing and then challenge the science behind his answer?

 

Maybe some want to portray themselves as persecuted. And to believe that Christians are not persecuted would be ignorant. All one must do is go to India, that Stans, Iraq, Iran, most anywhere in the Middle East, Asia, etc. to see Christian homes and churches burned, Christians attacked, beat, jailed, executed, or murdered, threatened, and physically harmed, etc. Why would a Judge in Egypt threaten to keep a Muslim women that converted to Christianity from leaving the country to go to Europe and tell her that if she were his daughter he would kill her!??? And when the other religions of the world Still do this why are Christians lumped in and compared to and with these other groups still stuck in the 14th century?

 

Overwhelmingly rejected? I think your shielding yourself form the truth on that one. Poll after Poll in the US shows that the American people overwhelmingly consider themselves to be Christian and 80%+ believe in a higher power. So lets be careful about the words we use to try to be part of the truth when they are not. It is not fair to accuse the other side of miss truths and half truths and such but then incorporate that into ones own arguments is it? Further, some on this thread have tried to project that the founding fathers were not Christian when they overwhelmingly were. And they virtually ALL prayed before each session and during and went into special prayer sessions to pray to God and consult God for wisdom, etc. when ever they ran into significant road blocks, challenges, etc. while framing our constitution, etc. Non believers try to paint the founding fathers as less then Christian and then not Christian. I would to I guess if I was on that side.

 

CR'sts and ID'ers were created by I don't know who to combat the opposition or by the opposition to give them a name. I don't particularly care nor do I align myself with either of them.

 

Evolution has shown little to nothing. It is about survival of the species and weeding out the useless or generating the useful. The deeper you go the more challenges one has. And it all stands on 'something' that 'sparked' life of some sort. How did nothing create itself into something? Because of lightning? Impossible. Some chemical reaction? That is the result of life, not the cause of it. And if this is so, my metal, plastic, and leather chair or my microwave or my front door could at ANY Time become living and start to evolve because it is all just carbon and matter and bits and pieces. So if my kitchen table were to turn into a living being on its own I would very much have to reconsider my beliefs and what I thought I knew to be truth. But it is not and I don't.

 

I believe God created the world and everything in it in literal 24 hour days. That He created man and all life. That man was likely alive during the dinosaurs. The dinosaurs are no threat to my spiritual beliefs. They are inconsequential and incapable of being a threat. Scripture speaks of a creature with a tail like that of a great cedar or something. That may be speaking about dinos or not. I don't really care that much. My salvation is not dependent upon dinos. Other than that the bible is silent on dinos for the most part and anything more is speculation which is about equal to adding to scripture.

 

Also note that I am Not threatened by having my children take anthropology classes or the like in school, college, etc. It is not a threat to me/us.

 

There is much disinformation, lying, pride, ignorance, etc. on both sides.

 

Peace and Blessings

[macattak1]

You can spin and spin and spin, and the web will still not be strong enough to hold you up. You can't go to something that was just made up, or cannot be proven, and use it to prove something else. It is like a house of cards in a hurricane. Don't pity me as some lonely soul who needs help. I am trying to help you. I want you to enjoy the rich full life that I enjoy, unencumbered by deep-rooted superstitious fears. How can your mind be free to learn when every fact has to jibe with religion? You can sit on the can in the powder-room with the light turned off all day, but you will never figure anything out unless you put religion on the table. You have to allow for the possibility that religion could be wrong. When you do that, everything becomes simple and crystal clear. You don't have to rattle off scripture after scripture to cloud up your thinking so that you can keep your faith; or chant a hundred Hail Marys while clutching a rosary like a child with a security blanket. I could just walk away from this and let you waste your life, but if I can help even a few people to see the light, I will be happy.

 

Greetings,

 

Trimm, you are so silly. Glad your having fun. Its like your are practicing your creative writing skills in this thread.

 

There is no spin. The web is amazingly strong! Have you been through a Hurricane? I have. About three 10 times in my life and every time I had the choice of alcohol, drugs, even cigarettes, or God to sustain me and help me and hold my life and my families lives together. And most of those times if not all I was so immature and selfish and full of sin that I would or could have easily chosen to follow myself instead of a better way.

 

Talk about Religion all you want. But God is not religion and the bible even warns about religiosity and the dangers of it. Prayer beeds and mutterings have no power or authority. You are your own authority. But you are just as broken as ever other single person on the world. And you can save yourself and make your own paradise no more than anyone else can.

 

Peace and Blessings

[macattak1]

J-150 said:

"Lucifer praciced free will and was punished for it.

This does in fact show angelic freewill. They come when they are called. They are divine beings, not dogs. They come because they chose to obey."

 

Dogma, Mindless Sheep. Stones...

 

Its not Dogma or a Tenet that I learned from some church or belief system.

 

And perhaps you would be well served to read my post again? In fact. I will post it again for you.

 

Mac said

"So they are as powerful as God? I don't understand. If they appear before God when they want then yes. That would clearly be free will. However, that would also imply that they are nearly as or as powerful as God in that they can ignore Him if they want."

 

By stating that they made their own choice to disobey and leave God, even though God made them to serve His purposes, shows that they are able to thwart God, disrupt his plans, and ignore God if they so choose which puts them on a near level with God because God then has no authority over them. They can simply leave anything they choose.

 

Notice that I used Question marks not Periods. I was asking a Question, not forcing an inference on your statement. I was asking for clarification and I think I did a pretty good job of staying away from putting words in your mouth and instead making a clear statement. Maybe I failed. I apologize if I did.

 

Regardless, I believe that to indicate that Angels have free will infers that God is not fully in control because they are allowed to at any time disobey Him and deliver a false message to those they spoke to in the scripture, or they could do anything else they wanted. But they don't. The fallen angels fell as part of God's plan, not their own and they are allowed to pierce the veil as it suits God's will and not by their own powers else this would be chaos down here and we would all be dead or enslaved by the fallen.

 

Peace and Blessings