Theology

[macattak1]

God is perfect, but he purposely created imperfect beings (for some reason). Because we are imperfect 'sin' exists.

 

 

I appologize. I beleive I am confused. At first it sounded as if maybe you were blaming God for those horrible things?

But it does not sound that way now. Perhaps I am missing something as I go back over the last few posts and re-read. I have been staring at Excel spread sheets all the day long...

 

Peace and Blessings

[RaZor]

It seems to me that there is more than enough evidence in the history of man on earth, that man does indeed have free will, and that God interferes very little with the doings of man. That thought is totally abhorrent to many religious people because they need the feeling that God is guiding them through every step of life and is involved with their lives - and that God has a plan for each and every one of us - and will be there to make it happen.

 

The denominations that often recruit large numbers are the ones who push this concept - that God is guiding you at all times. It gives great comfort to many. They also tend to like dogmatic deeds (acts) that they can do to show God that they are obedient etc.

 

What I have noticed over my 6 decades, is that most people that get wrapped up in those dogmatic deeds - never do much in the way of introspection and expansion of their spirituality. . . which, of course, is much more difficult, but totally in tune with Christ's favorite method of teaching -- the parable. Designed to make one think. . . not just go through deeds/actions . . . to absorb the meaning of being Christ-like.

 

A perfect example (to me) is a study just released today showed that: the more often Americans go to church, the more likely they are to support the torture of suspected terrorists -- with the group that showed the greatest approval of torture -- Evangelists. I guess that they did not stop to think, "Would Christ condone torture?"

 

Maybe that's because their religion is not part of their spirituality? Or, is it that they have bombarded with so much fear . . .

 

Oops, gotta hit the shower . . . I've got a hot date.

[Critic]

You go dude, six decades and still dating, Impressive. Anyways I agree with what you just said...

 

I find it funny when you point blank ask someone a question in this thread, how some overlook it and answer something completely different and then they keep getting asked the same question again..

 

And for Aaron: Hi dude, notice you like to follow me around.

[macattak1]

First, that study was well shown to have been very misleading and not a quality study at all.

 

Second, what about at least one alternative to your position. What about man that Had Free Will, used it to commit sin, and committed those that followed after to be born into sin.

 

If one takes the scripture to at least some degree of value it is not hard to see that man was made perfect, allowed to sin, and has become dead because of this sin that we are all born into. A dead thing can not choose life. That is why Jesus says He chose us Before any of us Chose Him. He Draws us, we do not draw Him.

 

Of course one does not have to believe this. Many do not hold scripture as very accurate these days. Which causes me endless wonder as to why they waste their time with god at all? If any of it is false then it is all false. Certainly I would be no where near the measure of being able to define what parts of scripture are true and what parts are false. Certainly no man that sins is capable of this either.

 

For me, I don't follow religion. I don't go to church. I read the scripture and pray and let God reveal to me what He wishes. It is His story after all. Not mine. But I also know that perhaps 1 in 10,000 believes close to what I have just written. Many want their own path, their own authority, etc. We see this all day long in the Mormons, 7th day, JW's, Catholics, Lutherans, Methodists, etc. God stopped being their authority a long time ago and they made the teachings of men (and women) their authority.

 

Peace and Blessings

[RangerM]

A perfect example (to me) is a study just released today showed that: the more often Americans go to church, the more likely they are to support the torture of suspected terrorists -- with the group that showed the greatest approval of torture -- Evangelists. I guess that they did not stop to think, "Would Christ condone torture?"

 

Maybe that's because their religion is not part of their spirituality? Or, is it that they have bombarded with so much fear . . .

Flatly, Christ would not condone torture. My followup question would be, how do you define torture?

 

My idea of torture is simply inflicting pain/suffering for punitive reasons (or revenge). Christ told us to "Turn the other cheek". BUT, I also don't believe He meant for us to be victims for the wicked. I believe Christ (and the Bible), did/do allow for self defense, even by deadly force. (NOTE: that is my interpretation of Scripture)

 

If the man standing in front of me is likely to have information that would allow me to protect myself or my children, am I right to use whatever means necessary to acquire it? If it means killing him I'd say no, but I'm open to many things short of that. (depending upon what they are)

 

There is a line somewhere.

[Trimdingman]

If you are off religion, you are 90% of the way to being free. Now, all you have to do is get off this God fixation. It is just a crutch. Accept the fact that God may or may not exist, and it does not really matter what you believe. Nothing is going to happen to you.

 

Organized religions are mostly evil and have used torture. They were set up as tools to control masses of people under an authoritarian system. In a free country, where religion has no role in government, they still find followers, but are of no value, and styfle free thought, and slow down advances in science and technology.

[RaZor]

You go dude, six decades and still dating, Impressive. Anyways I agree with what you just said...

 

I find it funny when you point blank ask someone a question in this thread, how some overlook it and answer something completely different and then they keep getting asked the same question again..

Critic, still dating? Of course. Been married. Done that. Won’t do it again. The thought that half of all marriages – last forever – is a little too daunting to me - at this juncture.

 

Responses (or the lack thereof0 to questions – you noticed that too, eh? I have never had the arrogance to profess that I know all (about any subject) – I just attempt to try and present ideas and thoughts in a manner that may get others to consider that there are more than two sides to every story. I come here not to inform, convince, convert – or anything else. Seems like there are many that are, tho’. If presenting a different light on a particular subject can illuminate a subject – then I am content. I suppose the reason that many do not directly answer questions – is because they haven’t considered that viewpoint – and do not have an answer – and, it is just easier to deflect and/or ignore.

[RaZor]

First, that study was well shown to have been very misleading and not a quality study at all.

 

Second, what about at least one alternative to your position. What about man that Had Free Will, used it to commit sin, and committed those that followed after to be born into sin.

 

Oh really! Pew Research’s survey “has been well shown to have been misleading” – by whom? You do realize that Pew is, and has been, one of the few (top) pollsters in regards to accuracy, reliability, unbiased, even-handed without embellishments and contrived questions that frame or invoke specific results . . . for quite some time, don’t you? Hell, even Limbaugh quotes them – when the results support his position. I would definitely be interested to see your basis for making such a statement.

 

As far as your statement/question (in bold above), could you rephrase – as I am not quite sure exactly what the question is (is it a question – just not punctuated properly?) – especially the second part. I have an idea what you are getting at, but would prefer that you put it in proper English so that I am not guessing.

[RaZor]

Flatly, Christ would not condone torture. My followup question would be, how do you define torture?

 

My idea of torture is simply inflicting pain/suffering for punitive reasons (or revenge). Christ told us to "Turn the other cheek". BUT, I also don't believe He meant for us to be victims for the wicked. I believe Christ (and the Bible), did/do allow for self defense, even by deadly force. (NOTE: that is my interpretation of Scripture)

 

If the man standing in front of me is likely to have information that would allow me to protect myself or my children, am I right to use whatever means necessary to acquire it? If it means killing him I'd say no, but I'm open to many things short of that. (depending upon what they are)

 

There is a line somewhere.

To me (which includes experiencing US Army training to deal with torture -if captured), torture is any act that inflicts severe pain and suffering, whether physical or mental, to coerce information from a person. Besides being profoundly un-Christian and un-American, torture, as any experienced military person will tell you, rarely yields good intelligence/information. People who are tortured will tell you what you want to hear, factual or not, just to get you to stop. . . and, that has pretty much has been proven over and over, for a very long time.

 

Do I consider water boarding (a technique that the Japanese used on American prisoners and others in WWII – and that we convicted them for doing so) constitute torture? Unless you do not understand what it entails – of course it does. Using inhuman violence to extract information is one thing, but for punitive or revenge purposes brings a whole other aspect to inhuman treatment of other humans.

 

Would this be a form of torture? Six enemy soldiers are captured and initially questioned in the field (while a chopper is dispatched to pick them up and return them to military intelligence location - as almost all intelligence gained from combatants is timely – the longer it takes to gain it – the less effective/accurate it is) and then during their flight back to the intell location, one of the combatants (the one that is least likely to have valuable intell) is thrown out of the chopper at 1,500ft – to give incentive to the remaining five to spill the beans. Does this cause mental suffering/fear on the remaining prisoners? Is that torture? Oh wait – that’s killing someone isn’t it? I suppose one could look to the Bible for inspiration (justification) here too.

 

Some scholars believe that because the Ten Commandments were issued to the Jews, that “Thou shall not kill” only applies to other Jews (Thou shalt not kill other Jews). Throughout history (you can include the almost 800 hundred years of the Spanish Inquisition, the Crusades, and all sorts of man’s slaughtering other man in the name of God) it seems that it really means for some religious people: “Thou shall kill, unless…” or “thou shall not kill, except when . . .” It is not surprising that one could also extend that to “Thou shall not torture, unless…”

 

The Bible provides more than ample references for all sorts of aberrant violent behavior – and it is not surprising to me that those who choose to interpret its verses in a literal sense turn out to have violence, inhumanity, brutality, suspicion, rage, intolerance and vengeance woven into their entire system of beliefs. After all, it’s right there in the Scriptures. There is even specific guide and formula for selling one’s own daughter into slavery and as long as one follows Moses’ rules for same, apparently it is justified and accepted. But, as long as one does it in line with Scriptures, all sorts of behavior is OK as they forgive themselves for these transgressions, creating all manner of justifications that allow them to see these acts as forgivable, if not blessed. “Why . . . not only did Rumsfeld, Cheney, Bush, order and approve of torture--so did God.”

 

Fortunately, for most, we know better than to sell our children into slavery, to stone them for misbehavior and we know better than to stone ‘disobedient’ women. Exodus clearly states that anyone working on the Sabbath should be put to death – does that mean what I think it does? Am I morally obligated to do the deed, or do I call the police so that they can handle it? If my brother (who is a farmer), if he plants different crops side by side – do all his neighbors get together and stone him – or who handles that? Do I have to burn by mother/sister/wife/gf in a family gathering for wearing garments made from two different threads? Thankfully, we have adopted civil laws – otherwise life could be really difficult.

 

And I submit we know better than to torture. Thank God . . . no wait – I didn’t mean it that way . . . I meant . . . oh, never mind. How about – don’t do the crime, if you can’t do the time?

[macattak1]

Oh really! Pew Research’s survey “has been well shown to have been misleading” – by whom? You do realize that Pew is, and has been, one of the few (top) pollsters in regards to accuracy, reliability, unbiased, even-handed without embellishments and contrived questions that frame or invoke specific results . . . for quite some time, don’t you? Hell, even Limbaugh quotes them – when the results support his position. I would definitely be interested to see your basis for making such a statement.

 

As far as your statement/question (in bold above), could you rephrase – as I am not quite sure exactly what the question is (is it a question – just not punctuated properly?) – especially the second part. I have an idea what you are getting at, but would prefer that you put it in proper English so that I am not guessing.

 

Apparently we are talking about two different studies. I apologize for failing to remember that anyone else could have done a study on this and recently so. I just belined in the directon of the one I had read about. I would be interested in what a Pew study has to say as I consider them to be very valid so I will go find it.

 

The one I just read about this last week was done by some American Christian Council or something like that. The questions they asked were in very poor taste as non leading study questions go. I was looking for that one the other day but am having trouble finding it. I get some emails and I might read a story from one of many sights and delete the email and have a very hard time locating it again.

---

I am referring to Adam. Scripture shows that Satan sinned, ensnared Eve, then ensnared Adam. Adam and Eve's sin bound everyone from that point on to sin. We are born into it. Per scripture.

 

Peace and Blessings

[macattak1]

Some scholars believe that because the Ten Commandments were issued to the Jews, that “Thou shall not kill” only applies to other Jews (Thou shalt not kill other Jews). Throughout history (you can include the almost 800 hundred years of the Spanish Inquisition, the Crusades, and all sorts of man’s slaughtering other man in the name of God) it seems that it really means for some religious people: “Thou shall kill, unless…” or “thou shall not kill, except when . . .” It is not surprising that one could also extend that to “Thou shall not torture, unless…”

 

The Bible provides more than ample references for all sorts of aberrant violent behavior – and it is not surprising to me that those who choose to interpret its verses in a literal sense turn out to have violence, inhumanity, brutality, suspicion, rage, intolerance and vengeance woven into their entire system of beliefs. After all, it’s right there in the Scriptures. There is even specific guide and formula for selling one’s own daughter into slavery and as long as one follows Moses’ rules for same, apparently it is justified and accepted. But, as long as one does it in line with Scriptures, all sorts of behavior is OK as they forgive themselves for these transgressions, creating all manner of justifications that allow them to see these acts as forgivable, if not blessed. “Why . . . not only did Rumsfeld, Cheney, Bush, order and approve of torture--so did God.”

 

Fortunately, for most, we know better than to sell our children into slavery, to stone them for misbehavior and we know better than to stone ‘disobedient’ women. Exodus clearly states that anyone working on the Sabbath should be put to death – does that mean what I think it does? Am I morally obligated to do the deed, or do I call the police so that they can handle it? If my brother (who is a farmer), if he plants different crops side by side – do all his neighbors get together and stone him – or who handles that? Do I have to burn by mother/sister/wife/gf in a family gathering for wearing garments made from two different threads? Thankfully, we have adopted civil laws – otherwise life could be really difficult.

 

And I submit we know better than to torture. Thank God . . . no wait – I didn’t mean it that way . . . I meant . . . oh, never mind. How about – don’t do the crime, if you can’t do the time?

 

Torture is inhumane. Period. I find water boarding to be in line with torture. I guess even sleep deprivation could be considered torture as one dies with out sleep. But I am not sure prohibiting some one from sleep for a day...or two?

 

Taking all those horrible things in context of the scripture one can see that God was showing the the very Stiff Necked people that no matter what, they could not meet His requirements. It was a cold harsh law. We are not much smarter these days if any.

 

Scholars often make huge mistakes. Just like the guy that recently wrote a best seller about Questions to God or something like that. They guy was supposedly in some form of Christian or Jewish religion for a long long time. Still, he could not figure out answers to some of the most basic questions. Its as if he never even picked up scripture and read it and studied it or rather used the teachings of men on the scripture instead of going to the source.

 

In context, scripture makes perfect sense. Out of context it fails miserably.

 

Peace and Blessings

[RangerM]

To me (which includes experiencing US Army training to deal with torture -if captured), torture is any act that inflicts severe pain and suffering, whether physical or mental, to coerce information from a person.

I can certainly accept that statement, even if I may not agree with it entirely.

Using inhuman violence to extract information is one thing, but for punitive or revenge purposes brings a whole other aspect to inhuman treatment of other humans.

Which is why I consider consider the "punitive and revenge purposes" to be very clearly torture.

Would this be a form of torture? ....... Oh wait – that’s killing someone isn’t it? I suppose one could look to the Bible for inspiration (justification) here too.

Yes, that would be murder, and I know of no justification for murder (Biblical or otherwise)

 

All I can really say Razor is that you must be a better man than I am. I know myself well enough that I could not look in to the eyes of a victim's mother (or other family member) and tell her that even though I didn't (try to) extract the information that might have saved her child, that makes me a good person for living up to a higher standard. I literally don't have it in me.

 

I'm not trying to be sarcastic with that statement. I am being perfectly honest when I say, my own human fallibility would basically force me to obtain information by many (not 'any') means necessary if it means protecting my family, or another person (or persons).

 

I don't now, nor would I ever, suggest that I would use God or the Bible as justifications for my actions, and I would expect to be judged accordingly. My point of bring up the Bible was to make the point that I am allowed to defend myself or my family.

Edited May 3, 2009 by RangerM

[Critic]

Ranger, Razor.....

I had a very very good friend of mine murdered along with his son at/in his place of business. It shocked me and to this day, I've not had an answer as to why it occured. Nor can I get over it. I've just heard a rumor it was about his selling a car and the deal went wrong. Imagine that, but these things happen.

 

You remember the movie 'Sgt. York'? True story, perhaps embellished to fit the big screen, but this is a timeless story. He didn't like the idea of war, fighting, killing, and he had a talk with his minister. I just bring that to the table.

 

And now along with that. I was in another thread and mentioned another movie. What Dreams May Come

I bring this here for a few reasons. Ultimately, to me, Theology is about my getting to heaven. Define it as you wish, I'll use religion/theology in that aspect. I don't think, nor will I let anyone tell me, there is but one and only one certain aspect to religion. Because if their was, then the subject is closed. This is what I get from the bible-thumper evangelicals. and it's a turn-off for people who like to think. When I am shown after this life what it's all about then I will know. Until then, I'm just learning all the time.

 

One last thing, I use to read comic books like crazy, I was lucky. A cousin of mine (in WV, lol) would send me home with grocery bags full every time I saw him. I just remember one or two of them. One I can't forget, was a story, about a world, a universe, a cosmos just like ours.... all wrapped up in a single drop of water within a glass of water held by someone else. You can't actually tell me that can not occur.

[Trimdingman]

It is not possible to draw a line between what is torture and what isn't. What is torture for some is pleasure to others. Listening to a one hour mass would be torture to me, but some people may actually like it. If you survive a defeat on the battlefield where most of your compatriots have fallen, you and surrender to the enemy, rather than fight to the death, you could face torture, or maybe your surrender will not be accepted, and you will be killed on the spot. It depends on the circumstances. Your life isn't worth too much, anyway. If you believe that you are too weak to withstand torture, and may give away intelligence that your friends died to protect, you should have fought to the death. Nobody is going to let The Geneva Convention mean the difference between victory and defeat. The native Indians used torture to instill fear in a larger force than themselves. It made many a Redcoat think twice before venturing where they were not welcome.

[J-150]

Did God not harden Pharaoh's heart? Again, and again, and again?

Did God not cause the enemies of His people to flee or be over taken and slaughtered by His people?

Did Jesus not say that He would be destroyed and rise again?

 

Peace and Blessings

 

 

answer the question Mac.

 

you have contradicted yourself again.

 

You insisted up and down that angels do not have freewill, and yet you just claimed that Satan sinned. But that is not possible without freewill.

 

So which is it?

 

Where you full of crap on point one or full of crap on point 2?

[J-150]

I read the scripture and pray and let God reveal to me what He wishes.

 

 

 

and how exaclty does this happen? Does he mail you a letter? Get a phone call?

[Trimdingman]

and how exaclty does this happen? Does he mail you a letter? Get a phone call?

 

 

Weren't you ever a child? It is called "make-believe". It starts with Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny. Children are forced to believe, and it is supposed to be good for them, even though they are being lied to. When they get a little older, they are forced to believe in religion, and warned of bad things that will happen to them if they don't believe, even though they are being lied to again. They develop a fantasy world in their minds, which stays there forever. Nothing that anyone can say will destroy that fantasy because it is so deeply ingrained. They become reactive to "triggers". Certain words or phrases will trigger unconscious, but predictable and controllable responses, like the hypnotist on stage clapping his hands and the participant quacking like a duck. It is called post-hypnotic suggestion. Religion is an old and powerful tool to control masses of people. It has been adapted in many ways into totalitarian political systems, also. To-day, we have information technology. We all know what is going on in the world. We don't need to be controlled any more. Let the natural forces and free market work and checks and balances will create a natural world. Freedom and responsibility will find a natural equilibrium. This efficiency will create wealth we could not even dream about.

[macattak1]

answer the question Mac.

 

you have contradicted yourself again.

 

You insisted up and down that angels do not have freewill, and yet you just claimed that Satan sinned. But that is not possible without freewill.

 

So which is it?

 

Where you full of crap on point one or full of crap on point 2?

 

Still not clear huh?

 

Pharaoh's heart was hardened towards the Jews. Do you remember that? Did Pharaoh harden his own heart? No. God did that! Pharaoh had no free will to do other.

 

I do not generally believe that the Angels had free will, at least post the fall. I believe that God caused/allowed the fall of the Angels. And as I have said before, since then, Adam and Eve and all their off spring have been cursed into sin AS were the fallen angels. You can easily read about what God did to Adam and Eve and Satan after the eating of the fruit.

 

This really should not be some huge revelation if you have studied so much of the scripture, the Torah, etc.

 

Peace and Blessings

[macattak1]

and how exaclty does this happen? Does he mail you a letter? Get a phone call?

 

I understand that you have to throw out barbs and such. That is what happens when one decides who and what at any given time in their life is their authority. You have many authority's that follow after you as your primary authority. It leaves you with few strong positions because your positions can change direction with the wind, your current situation in life, what you and your wisdom happen to think is right or best, etc. Your religion is about you and until you get past that point it is not going to change significantly for you.

 

But for me, I know I am hugely fallible. That is why I am very happy and feel very blessed to have found the scriptures. Because I know a Dead thing can not choose Life. I know that I am not in control and that my Faith is simply a manifestation of God drawing me, and that it is the Son's Faith in the Father which is the only Faith Not of Works. Anything I can do is simply works. Good works brought on by God in my life or sinful works brought on by my flesh until it too is born again.

 

Since you have so many different authorities it is no surprise that you get so riled up by what ever I share. It is also no surprise to know that you do not understand how God communicates with his Children. He calls, few answer, His children are born again, He writes His Word on His children's hearts, His children are Drawn to Him more and more and choose to do His work more and more while choosing to do the work of the flesh less and less.

 

Peace and Blessings

[J-150]

Still not clear huh?

 

Pharaoh's heart was hardened towards the Jews. Do you remember that? Did Pharaoh harden his own heart? No. God did that! Pharaoh had no free will to do other.

 

I do not generally believe that the Angels had free will, at least post the fall. I believe that God caused/allowed the fall of the Angels. And as I have said before, since then, Adam and Eve and all their off spring have been cursed into sin AS were the fallen angels. You can easily read about what God did to Adam and Eve and Satan after the eating of the fruit.

 

This really should not be some huge revelation if you have studied so much of the scripture, the Torah, etc.

 

Peace and Blessings

 

 

so you are recanting and saying that Angels DID have freewill?

 

thus far you have not answered the question.

 

Do angels have freewill or not?

[J-150]

I understand that you have to throw out barbs and such. That is what happens when one decides who and what at any given time in their life is their authority. You have many authority's that follow after you as your primary authority. It leaves you with few strong positions because your positions can change direction with the wind, your current situation in life, what you and your wisdom happen to think is right or best, etc. Your religion is about you and until you get past that point it is not going to change significantly for you.

 

But for me, I know I am hugely fallible. That is why I am very happy and feel very blessed to have found the scriptures. Because I know a Dead thing can not choose Life. I know that I am not in control and that my Faith is simply a manifestation of God drawing me, and that it is the Son's Faith in the Father which is the only Faith Not of Works. Anything I can do is simply works. Good works brought on by God in my life or sinful works brought on by my flesh until it too is born again.

 

Since you have so many different authorities it is no surprise that you get so riled up by what ever I share. It is also no surprise to know that you do not understand how God communicates with his Children. He calls, few answer, His children are born again, He writes His Word on His children's hearts, His children are Drawn to Him more and more and choose to do His work more and more while choosing to do the work of the flesh less and less.

 

Peace and Blessings

 

 

not answering this question eithr, huh?

 

Hey Mac, if you are only going to post falsehoods, accusations and fairy tales, without answering for the statements you make, please stay out of the thread.

 

We are here to have a discussion, not a one way sermon from you. You want to make statements, back them up when questioned. Otherwise, you have nothing to offer.

[macattak1]

not answering this question eithr, huh?

 

Hey Mac, if you are only going to post falsehoods, accusations and fairy tales, without answering for the statements you make, please stay out of the thread.

 

We are here to have a discussion, not a one way sermon from you. You want to make statements, back them up when questioned. Otherwise, you have nothing to offer.

 

Man, you are a brick wall.

 

Note: too many of your posts are wrapped in attacks, accusations, belittlements, diversions, strawmen, etc. You think you are so eloquent and accurate at answering questions posed to you? And you like to have little High 5 cheer fests with others about ‘how some people…’ You may not like what I have to say. No one said you had to. But perhaps you could act a little more mature?

 

But to make it easy I will show you where.

 

I will point you to post 561. Please read your first response, then apply it to yourself.

 

633 my response to Critic.:

Yes. Satan was a creature of God. I know of no scripture showing angels or Satan to have free will. But I know of scripture that shows they come when God summons them. They do not have the free will to ignore His summons or commands. Regardless, if you have no scripture on angelic free will you would be speculating and that is not how we come to truth. It is not about what is right, equitable, fair, etc. Its about what Scripture says. So if the bible talks in some language about Satan having Free Will please share it.

 

636 Your response to my response to Critic:

 

Lucifer praciced free will and was punished for it.

This does in fact show angelic freewill. They come when they are called. They are divine beings, not dogs. They come because they chose to obey.

 

641 My response to your above:

So they are as powerful as God? I don't understand. If they appear before God when they want then yes. That would clearly be free will. However, that would also imply that they are nearly as or as powerful as God in that they can ignore Him if they want.

 

Regardless, scripture tells me that Angels are subject to God, not the other way around.

 

How did Lucifer practice free will? Because he was jealous, full of pride, etc? That does not equate to free will. Lucifer wanted what he wanted. God let him act on it or he did not. Because Lucifer is not capable of interrupting God's plans. If he were then God would have to have a myriad of back up and contingency plans and that would indicated God was not in control.

 

646 Your response:

 

don't look now, but your dogma is showing again.

I never said they were as powerful as God. Please show me where I did.

 

646 Your response:

here goes that mindless sheep thing again...

 

650 My response to your above

Its not Dogma or a Tenet that I learned from some church or belief system.

And perhaps you would be well served to read my post again? In fact. I will post it again for you.

 

Mac said

"So they are as powerful as God? I don't understand. If they appear before God when they want then yes. That would clearly be free will. However, that would also imply that they are nearly as or as powerful as God in that they can ignore Him if they want."

 

By stating that they made their own choice to disobey and leave God, even though God made them to serve His purposes, shows that they are able to thwart God, disrupt his plans, and ignore God if they so choose which puts them on a near level with God because God then has no authority over them. They can simply leave anything they choose.

 

Notice that I used Question marks not Periods. I was asking a Question, not forcing an inference on your statement. I was asking for clarification and I think I did a pretty good job of staying away from putting words in your mouth and instead making a clear statement. Maybe I failed. I apologize if I did.

 

Regardless, I believe that to indicate that Angels have free will infers that God is not fully in control because they are allowed to at any time disobey Him and deliver a false message to those they spoke to in the scripture, or they could do anything else they wanted. But they don't. The fallen angels fell as part of God's plan, not their own and they are allowed to pierce the veil as it suits God's will and not by their own powers else this would be chaos down here and we would all be dead or enslaved by the fallen.

 

668 My response to you on a related, but not direct topic, but again shows my position:

I should correct myself. Man did not bring sin into the world. God clearly created the possibility for Sin. But it was Satan who first sinned. Now did God required, force, predestine, allow, etc. Satan to sin? I don't know. The bible appears to be silent on that. So I won't speculate.

 

With a question I asked you. One of many that goes unanswered by you as you worry more about attacking me and deflecting my statements.

 

NOTE: it seems to me that your thinking on this would also then cause you to be 100% on the side of predestination and zero self direction or free will. Is that the case?

 

669 Your response

please explain how Satan sinned if he, as an angel, did not have free will?

 

670 My response

Did God not harden Pharaoh's heart? Again, and again, and again?

Did God not cause the enemies of His people to flee or be over taken and slaughtered by His people?

Did Jesus not say that He would be destroyed and rise again?

 

Those were rhetorical questions.

 

693 Your response

answer the question Mac.

you have contradicted yourself again.

You insisted up and down that angels do not have freewill, and yet you just claimed that Satan sinned. But that is not possible without freewill.

So which is it?

Where you full of crap on point one or full of crap on point 2?

 

693 Again for you…

Still not clear huh?

Pharaoh's heart was hardened towards the Jews. Do you remember that? Did Pharaoh harden his own heart? No. God did that! Pharaoh had no free will to do other.

I do not generally believe that the Angels had free will, at least post the fall. I believe that God caused/allowed the fall of the Angels. And as I have said before, since then, Adam and Eve and all their off spring have been cursed into sin AS were the fallen angels. You can easily read about what God did to Adam and Eve and Satan after the eating of the fruit.

This really should not be some huge revelation if you have studied so much of the scripture, the Torah, etc.

 

695 Another response from you;

so you are recanting and saying that Angels DID have freewill?

thus far you have not answered the question.

Do angels have freewill or not?

 

----------------------------------------

So, one more time.

 

Satan either had some form of limited free will to sin or God predestined that. So at one point in time Satan MAY have had some limited form of free will. Limited because Satan still obeyed God and came when he was summoned, etc. as all angels and demons do. But since the fall, man and Satan have been cursed. Man has no spiritual free will. Neither Demons nor Satan have free will post the fall. They are still subject to God’s law, requirements, limitations, etc. If they were not they would have pierced the veil that separates us as they wish and they would be causing all the trouble that they want instead of the trouble that God allows.

 

------------------------------------------

Further, you ask questions, I respond, you ignore the response and just ask other questions. There is not much of a discussion with you and you imply I am the one that only wants to teach and not listen? That is probably the biggest issue. You don’t discuss. You ask a question, attack the response but do not respond to it, and then ask more questions. And I am the intolerant one?

 

What is your agenda?

 

Finally, by rereading my posts I see that I have asked questions instead of assuming, I have apologized, I have corrected myself, and a host of other positive things. That is not to toot my horn, but to set the record straight. Your actions have been?

[macattak1]

not answering this question eithr, huh?

 

Hey Mac, if you are only going to post falsehoods, accusations and fairy tales, without answering for the statements you make, please stay out of the thread.

 

We are here to have a discussion, not a one way sermon from you. You want to make statements, back them up when questioned. Otherwise, you have nothing to offer.

 

Questions have been answered so many times.

 

You may not have actually posted many falsehood because you don't reall discuss. You do the bolded part, and then you don't really respond much, you just zig zag up stream.

 

Have I produced a sermon? Wow. Cool. Actually, I was discussing my believes and asking questions and stating where I disagree to others statements. How many real statements have you actually made in this thread? What have you actually shared? I have what I believe is truth to share and offer. That is what this thread was about. Again, I am not sure what you have shared other than a few shadows of your positions? Perhaps you should disqualify yourself?

 

Frankly, a significant perception for me regarding you is that you are insecure in your own beliefs and that it is likely because you have so many directions for where your beliefs originate or are comprised from and it causes you great difficulty discussing actual topics.

[macattak1]

Angels Free will -

 

I know of no scripture that shows that Angels have free will. If someone has scripture showing this please share.

 

What I do have is scripture showing that God exerts His will upon man, angels, and demons alike. That they do His Good Pleasure when He wants and not their own. No more angels have fallen since the fall nor are they going to. All that fell would have apparently done so with Satan around the time Adam and Eve fell.

 

Angels were made perfect and holy by god just as Adam and Eve were. However, some how the angels fell. The bible is not clear if they did so of their own free will or if God caused this to come about. Ex. God hardened Pharaohs heart. Pharaoh had No Say in that. We can no more speculate that the angels chose to fall any more than we can speculate that God hardened their hearts causing their fall.

 

Since the fall, man's spirit and flesh became sin filled. By being born again we can experience a miracle where our spirit is reborn and purified by God and made Perfect. However, our flesh will not be until the Last Day.

 

Angels post the fall remain as either Holy or Fallen. They have no free will. They do the work God places before them or they sin. The fallen do not do Holy works and the Holy do not do sinful works.

 

So, Angels May have had some limited form a free will pre fall, but they fell and it is unclear as to why they did (that I know of), and are now entities of evil/sin. These fallen angels are still subject to God's laws and authority. I.e. demons may be cast out, but demons do not cast out born again or Jesus.

 

The Holy angles are beings post fall that are incapable of now falling and are tools of God to do His Good Please as He sees fit.

 

Peace and Blessings

[Trimdingman]

Before it can be argued whether or not angels have free will, it has to be proven that angels exist. I will bet anybody any amount of money that they can't prove the existence of angels. What is an angel? What does it look like? Is it a human with bird wings? It won't fly unless it has another means of propulsion. Are the wings just for decoration, or was the angel just something made up? Maybe they were drawn from a word of mouth description of extra-terrestrials using jet-packs. Whatever they were, they are gone now.